Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[scooter]

Unless I am having a senior moment, I seem to remember reading on that Duke of Edinburgh will be passed to someone. Was it Edward? That might be a good title for Harry (as the second son of a Monarch) when/if Charles becomes King.

 

[Menarue]

The title of Duke of Edinburgh has been promised to Edward, but there are lots of other titles in abeyance. Clarence isn´t very popular because the last one wasn´t considered a very good person to emulate.

 

[muriel]

Wikipedia reported that "Louis Mountbatten urged Philip to renounce his Greek and Danish royal titles, as well as his allegiance to the Greek crown, convert from Greek Orthodoxy to the Church of England, and become a naturalised British subject,[N 3] all of which was done by 18 March 1947"; however, all we know that not all is reported by Wikipedia is right or correct...
If there are no documents stating the renounciaton, I think your theory is correct.

I am no expert onthe topic, but I understand that Philip did renounce all claims to the Greek and Danish crowns beofre marrying Elizabeth.

 

[MAfan]

Yes, I also understand it; so that's my question: does a written renouncement or a legal document attesting it exist? It may be that, becoming a British citizen, the Prince has only choosen to be Philip Mountbatten, without any renouncement.

 

[Kotroman]

The title of Duke of Edinburgh has been promised to Edward, but there are lots of other titles in abeyance. Clarence isn´t very popular because the last one wasn´t considered a very good person to emulate.

Upon Philip's death the title will automatically be inherited by Charles, Philip's eldest son. Edward can only get the title when Charles becomes king, i.e. when the title reverts to the Crown and becomes available again. Also, a person has to be heir to a title in abeyance in order to get the title from the Sovereign (title is in abeyance when a peer of England - not of Scotland - dies leaving two or more daughters, but no sons, since all the daughters, regardless of age, are equal heirs and title is therefore abeyant until the Sovereign recognizes one of the daughters as the rightful heiress). As far as I know, Edward is not heir to any title in abeyance.

As for Philip's princely titles: I know that he renounced them and stopped using them, but did he cease to be Prince of Greece and Denmark in the eyes of law at that point? Did he sign some kind of a document to make the renunciation legal? If he didn't, then his wife and children were de jure princes and princesses of Greece and Denmark until 1974, right?

 

[MAfan]

Or Edward can be Duke of Edinburgh soon after his father's death if Charles, Andrew and their descendants renounce to it...

 

[branchg]

Philip ceased to be a Prince of Greece & Denmark legally with the approval of George, King of the Hellenes, in 1947. At that point, he became a British national and took the name of Lt. Philip Mountbatten, RN as his legal name in the UK.

George VI created him a Royal Highness and granted the titles he holds now. He also issued letters patent when The Princess Elizabeth became pregnant stating her children would be Prince/Princess of the UK with the style of HRH. So, the children were styled by order of The Sovereign, rather than their father's rank.

 

[Kotroman]

So, it was an agreement between Philip and the King of the Hellenes? Weren't there any documents at all?

There is no such thing as renunciation of peerage titles in the United Kingdom. You inherit the title, you bear the title. I'm afraid Edward will just have to wait for both of his parents to die to get the title.

 

[Menarue]

Can´t a sovereign designate a title for whomever he/she pleases. I mean when the Marquess of Tavistock inherits the title of Duke of Bedford for example his son receives the courtesy title of Marquess of Tavistock (just an example) in that case the father didn´t die.

 

[Elspeth]

So, it was an agreement between Philip and the King of the Hellenes? Weren't there any documents at all?

There is no such thing as renunciation of peerage titles in the United Kingdom. You inherit the title, you bear the title. I'm afraid Edward will just have to wait for both of his parents to die to get the title.

Since 1963 peers have been able to renounce titles.

Peerage Act 1963 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have a feeling this Act doesn't apply to royal peerages, but it does allow for regular peers to disclaim their peerages, which remain unfilled during the life of the person concerned. The title Viscount Stansgate is currently disclaimed because the person who inherited it (Tony Benn) wished to continue to be a member of the House of Commons. On his death, his son will become the third Viscount Stansgate.

 

[Kotroman]

I did have that Act in my mind. The act says that the peerage remains without a holder until the death of the peer making the disclaimer, when it descends as if it were never renounced. That means that, if Charles disclaimed the peerage, the Dukedom of Edinburgh would remain without a holder until Charles's accession (and it would merge with the Crown at that point). So there is no point to renounce the title. Edward will get it if he survives Charles and both of his parents. There is no way to speed up the process.

 

[branchg]

So, it was an agreement between Philip and the King of the Hellenes? Weren't there any documents at all?

There were letters between George VI, Princess Andrew and King George of Greece on the matter, including the timing of when it should happen in terms of Greek and British politics. Vickers' biography of Princess Andrew, which Philip gave several interviews to, talks about this issue in a chapter.

As a general rule, foreign titles are never recognized by The Sovereign officially in the UK and it's been this way since the 1917 Letters Patent of George V. With Philip, even though he was British in just about every way, having mostly grown up in the UK, to marry the heiress to the throne without renouncing his rights to the throne of Greece and his titles would have been impossible.

 

[branchg]

Royal peerages flow from the fount of honour to sons and male-line grandsons of The Sovereign who are HRH. The renunciation right under the 1963 Peerage Act is null and void for royal peers since they no longer hold any rights in the House of Lords (although it may be relevant after the peerage passes to the great-grandson of The Sovereign, who no longer holds royal rank).

If they weren't a son or grandson of The Sovereign, it is highly unlikely they would hold a peerage that is created only for the blood royal. It is secondary to their status as Prince/Princess of the UK.

 

[Royal Fan]

So if a John Doe Married Lady Gabriella he wouldnt get anything correct?

 

[branchg]

Correct. The recent trend has been to offer a peerage only to those who marry a daughter of The Sovereign (Princess Anne & Princess Margaret).

 

[windsorbrides1]

Prince Edward will absolutely become a royal Duke. It was announced at the time of his wedding that upon his father's death he will become HRH Duke of Edinburgh. Which means Lord Louis will be HRH Earl of Wessex, and Lord Louis' son will be Viscount Severn

 

[Iluvbertie]

Prince Edward will absolutely become a royal Duke. It was announced at the time of his wedding that upon his father's death he will become HRH Duke of Edinburgh. Which means Lord Louis will be HRH Earl of Wessex, and Lord Louis' son will be Viscount Severn

It was NOT annouced that Edward would become Duke of Edinburgh on the passing of his father.

What was announced was that when The Queen AND the Duke of Edinburgh both die then it is intended that Charles will recreate the Duke of Edinburgh title for Prince Edward.

Charles may decide not to honour his mother's announcement. Charles may have predeceased his mother, in which case William would have to honour an agreement to which he was not a party at the time (assuming that as he was under 18 he wasn't involved in the arrangements). Maybe Charles, William, Harry and Andrew will have predeceased The Queen and thus Beatrice becomes Queen in her own right but Edward then inherits directly the Edinburgh titles.

What we have is an intention that if everything goes according to plan when Philip dies Charles will inherit the Edinburgh title as per the Letters Patent of 1947. When Charles becomes King (or if Philip dies after the Queen) then the title will merge with the Crown and be available for regrant.

It is possible that it might not be available for regrant to Edward at all. If William has a daughter and then dies, and Charles also dies before his father then William's daughter would then become the heiress apparent and Harry would become the direct heir to the Edinburgh title meaning that it wouldn't become available for Edward at all.

Edward can only get the Edinburgh title AFTER The Queen and Prince Philip have died AND it has merged with the Crown OR after Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all die leaving Beatrice as the heiress apparent to The Queen and thus Edward inherits the Edinburgh, Merioeth and Greenwich titles directly.

 

[Warren]

The explanation has been restated many times: when the Duke of Edinburgh dies (assuming he predeceases the Queen), his Dukedom will pass to his eldest son, ie Charles. When Charles becomes King the Dukedom of Edinburgh will merge with the Crown. Only then can Charles re-create it as a "new" Dukedom for his brother.

 

[MAfan]

Prince Edward will absolutely become a royal Duke. It was announced at the time of his wedding that upon his father's death he will become HRH Duke of Edinburgh. Which means Lord Louis will be HRH Earl of Wessex, and Lord Louis' son will be Viscount Severn

Lord Louis??? Edward's son is James, Viscount Severn, not Louis...

 

[branchg]

Unless they make another decision, Edward and Sophie's children will not use their style of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK. Although they are presently entitled to do so under the 1917 Letters Patent, Charles is likely to issue new letters patent limiting royal rank to the children of The Sovereign, the children of The Prince of Wales and the eldest male-line grandchild.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

I am curious... If a non-royal duke's lesser titles spread down to his eldest son, and eldest grandson, if all three are alive at the same time, and the duke has multiple titles, then why is Prince Charles not Earl of Merioneth, and Prince William not Baron Greenwich?

 

[yvr girl]

They have titles in their own right - they don't need courtesy titles.

 

[Royal Fan]

What will happen to the other titles Greenwich and Merioneth???

 

[Lady Marmalade]

So because of that, they do not pass down? I am still curious as to what makes them different, say from the Duke of Kent, Duke of Gloucester? I know their sons and grandsons are not HRH's, but they still have their lesser titles in use.

I tried researching it, but to no avail, cannot find a reason why Charles is not Earl of Merioneth and William is not Baron Greenwich.

Thank you to those who replied.

 

[yvr girl]

When a dukedom ceases to be royal

courtesy titles come into play. Great grandchildren of the monarch are not HRHs with one exception.

The difference with the DoE is that his heirs will inherit the throne, and therefore the title will merge with the crown.

 

[Iluvbertie]

What will happen to the other titles Greenwich and Merioneth???

If everything goes according to plan i.e. Charles inherits the Edinburgh title and it then merges with the Crown it will be up to Charles to decide what to do with them. As Edward already has an earldom and a Viscountcy (sp) then I would assume that both Merioneth and Greenwich would remain available for a subsequent regrant at a later date - maybe to William's second son for instance.

If, by some unlucky accident, Charles, William, Harry and Andrew all predecease Philip Philip and the Queen, without leaving legitimate male issue and thus Beatrice becomes Queen but Edward inherits the Edinburgh title in his own right then he would also get the Merioneth and Greenwich titles.

If, as I outlined above, William has a daughter, and then both Charles and William die before the title merges with the Crown (namely that both William and Charles die before The Queen), then Harry would inherit the Edinburgh, Merioneth and Greenwich titles outright.

 

[Iluvbertie]

So because of that, they do not pass down? I am still curious as to what makes them different, say from the Duke of Kent, Duke of Gloucester? I know their sons and grandsons are not HRH's, but they still have their lesser titles in use.

I tried researching it, but to no avail, cannot find a reason why Charles is not Earl of Merioneth and William is not Baron Greenwich.

Thank you to those who replied.

You actually answered your own question - the Duke of Kent and Duke of Gloucester's sons and grandsons use the courtesy titles because they don't have the HRH.

Because Charles and William have the HRH they don't use the courtesy titles.

Had George VI not issued the new LPs in 1948 giving the HRH to the children of the then Princess Elizabeth then Charles would have used the Earl of Merioneth title until he became Duke of Cornwell in 1952.

The HRH is a senior title/style than a mere courtesy title. It is substantive and is generally held by the person born with it for life.

The Dukes of Kent and Gloucester are both HRH and never used the St Andrews or Ulster titles when they were the heirs to their father's titles because of the HRH. It is because their sons don't have the HRH that the courtesy titles come into play. The present Duke of Gloucrester's older brother also never used the courtesy title while heir to his father. When I say never I am referring to officially as they might have used it to travel incognito but still with a modicum of title about them.

 

[branchg]

Courtesy titles are irrelevant when you have your own title (i.e. HRH Prince William of Wales), which takes precedence over all other styles.

The Edinburgh dukedom will likely be recreated as the "1st Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn" for Edward after Charles is King and their father has passed on.

 

[MAfan]

If Prince and princess Michael would divorce, what would be the title of Princess Michael?

 

[Kotroman]

I believe that she would be known as Baroness Marie Christine von Reibnitz (her premarital title). Her husband doesn't hold a peerage title, so she can't be known as divorced wife of a peer.