Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[wymanda]

Royal Dukedoms

Am I right in assuming that if Prince Andrew does not take a second wife and have a son, Prince Edward is heir to the Dukedom of York and, in the future, could well become Duke of Edinburgh & York?

 

[branchg]

No, it was created to pass through "male heirs of body". If he doesn't remarry and have a son, it will become extinct after his death.

 

[Royal Fan]

I Wonder if its possible Prince Henry getting it ?

 

[Elspeth]

No, it was created to pass through "male heirs of body". If he doesn't remarry and have a son, it will become extinct after his death.

That's correct. Unlike regular dukedoms, royal dukedoms aren't inherited by brothers in the absence of sons. If George VI hadn't become King, the Duke of York title would have become extinct on his death, it wouldn't have passed to the Duke of Gloucester.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I Wonder if its possible Prince Henry getting it ?

Possible but highly unlikely.

For it to be available for Harry to get it Andrew would have to die before Harry is given a dukedom in his own right.

It is possible that something similar to the situation with the Edinburgh title could happen with Harry initially getting an Earldom on the understanding that when Andrew died either Harry's grandmother, father or brother will then create him Duke of York but he could be waiting for a very long time then to become a Duke as Andrew is only 24 years older than Harry. Andrew has the same long living genes as his siblings and could easily live another 40 years and that would have Harry waiting to become a royal duke into his 60s.

It is far more likely that Harry will get a Dukedom of his own at marriage and the York title will become extinct in its current creation on Andrew's death and be available for William's second son or possibly William's heir's second son.

Of course the government could, when it inevitably decides to even up inheritance to the throne between the sexes, also pass legislation to allow for the same inheritance rights for women to all titles not just the crown and thus York would pass to Beatrice.

 

[branchg]

I doubt The Queen will grant dukedoms to William or Harry anytime soon. More likely, she would create them Earls upon marriage, with Charles conferring a dukedom on Harry once he is King. William will automatically be Duke of Cornwall.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

I think, given William's status as the first son to the heir, he will be created a royal duke upon his marriage.

 

[Mermaid1962]

So then what would happen when he becomes Duke of Cornwall? Would he be Duke of Cornwall and...for example, Cambridge? Or would the Duke of Cornwall title supercede another Dukedom?

I think, given William's status as the first son to the heir, he will be created a royal duke upon his marriage.

 

[Iluvbertie]

So then what would happen when he becomes Duke of Cornwall? Would he be Duke of Cornwall and...for example, Cambridge? Or would the Duke of Cornwall title supercede another Dukedom?

It would be the same situation that George V was in in 1901 when he was known as the Duke of Cornwall and York.

He had been created Duke of York by his grandmother and then inherited Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay when Victoria died. During the majority of that year (except in Scotland where Rothesay is used instead of Cornwall) he was known as the Duke of Cornwall and York.

Those were the titles used to describe him when he opened the first Australian Parliament on 9th May 1901 with his Duchess (later Queen Mary) by his side.

 

[Velasco]

Future Titles and Rank of Queen Elizabeth's Descendants

I have been thinking about the future titles and rank of Queen Elizabeth's descendants.

I don't think Prince William will ever get his "own" title; I think he will merely suceed his father as Duke of Cornwall, Earl of Chester, etc and then be created Prince of Wales.

Harry, however....I believe the most likely ducal titles would be Cambridge or Sussex, which were the two the "experts" predicted for his uncle (although they were later proved wrong when it was announced that the Earl of Wessex would be made Duke of Edinburgh when prince Philip died). However, I would much prefer him to become "Duke of Clarence" or even "Duke of Clarence and Avondale". Not only does it have a better ring to it it was also used in not too distant past by Prince Albert Victor, and further back in time by Prince Lionel (second son of King Edward III).

Also, the Queen's other grandchildren....

When the Duke of York dies, will his eldest daughter inherit the duchy? If so, why is she not permitted use of the courtesy title usually held by the heir? Also, when Beatrice and Eugenie marry, if they were to marry a non-royal, will they lose HRH and royal title? Or is there any possibility of Queen Elizabeth (or whoever is monarch at the time) elevating their husbands-to-be to the rank of Prince (like was done prior to her marriage for Prince Philip, who was temporarily a commoner).

And Viscount Severn, will his children and grandchildren be HRH also?

 

[wbenson]

When the Duke of York dies, will his eldest daughter inherit the duchy?

No, she won't. The Dukedom of York only passes to heirs male. When Andrew dies, it will become extinct.

From the London Gazette of 23 July 1986. (PDF file)

HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN has been pleased to direct
Letters Patent to be passed under the Great Seal of the
Realm, to bear this day's date, granting unto Her
Majesty's Son, His Royal Highness Prince Andrew
Albert Christian Edward cvo and the heirs male of
his body lawfully begotten, the dignities of BARON
KILLYLEAGH, EARL OF INVERNESS and DUKE OF YORK.

If so, why is she not permitted use of the courtesy title usually held by the heir?

Even if she could inherit it, women don't use courtesy titles. And even if she was a boy, princes don't use courtesy titles.

Also, when Beatrice and Eugenie marry, if they were to marry a non-royal, will they lose HRH and royal title?

No. Princess Alexandra (the most recent royal granddaughter I can think of) didn't when she married a non-royal. (Neither did Princess Anne or Princess Margaret.)

Or is there any possibility of Queen Elizabeth (or whoever is monarch at the time) elevating their husbands-to-be to the rank of Prince (like was done prior to her marriage for Prince Philip, who was temporarily a commoner).

I don't see why not.

And Viscount Severn, will his children and grandchildren be HRH also?

No. Only children and male-line grandchildren of the sovereign are entitled to that.

 

[Velasco]

Ah, I see.
So there is a chance that the Duchy of York will revert to the Crown and Harry will , in time, be made Duke of York? Nice

However, isn't Viscount Severn a prince? And yet he still uses the courtesy title...how comes?

 

[wbenson]

His parents decided to pretend he's not, basically. Technically, he's HRH Prince James of Wessex. (And Louise is technically HRH Princess Louise of Wessex).

 

[Iluvbertie]

Ah, I see.
So there is a chance that the Duchy of York will revert to the Crown and Harry will , in time, be made Duke of York? Nice

However, isn't Viscount Severn a prince? And yet he still uses the courtesy title...how comes?

Harry could only become Duke of York on the death of the present holder of that title, a man who is currently only 48 years old.

In all likelihood Andrew could easily live to 90 meaning Harry would be 66. I suspect that Harry would get his own dukedom sometime before that.

 

[wbenson]

Has any royal ever been given a peerage when there are still others using that designation in their style? (What I mean is, is it likely that someone would ever be created, for example, Duke of York when there are still children of the previous holder called Prince(ss) N of York around?)

 

[kimebear]

Not likely. There are no shortages of old titles that can be used or new ones created.

 

[Mermaid1962]

Oh yes...I forgot about that situation. Thank you for reminding me.

It would be the same situation that George V was in in 1901 when he was known as the Duke of Cornwall and York.

He had been created Duke of York by his grandmother and then inherited Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay when Victoria died. During the majority of that year (except in Scotland where Rothesay is used instead of Cornwall) he was known as the Duke of Cornwall and York.

Those were the titles used to describe him when he opened the first Australian Parliament on 9th May 1901 with his Duchess (later Queen Mary) by his side.

 

[Elspeth]

If Beatrice and Eugenie marry at anything like a normal age, there won't be any "of York" descendants around anyway. I doubt Harry would be created Duke of York while the Queen was still alive, even if he married. He'd maybe get an earldom and then be created Duke of York by his father after Beatrice and Eugenie were both married and no longer using "of York."

 

[Iluvbertie]

If Beatrice and Eugenie marry at anything like a normal age, there won't be any "of York" descendants around anyway. I doubt Harry would be created Duke of York while the Queen was still alive, even if he married. He'd maybe get an earldom and then be created Duke of York by his father after Beatrice and Eugenie were both married and no longer using "of York."

Princess Margaret was known originally as Princess Margaret of York and she was most certainly around when Andrew was created Duke of York.

The same thing with the children of George V, who had been born with the of York - Edward VIII, George VI, Mary and Henry, were all still alive when George V gave the future George VI the York title. George VI was born Albert of York and then became Duke of York in his own right despite the title having merged with the crown (normally for a son to have that happen he would be inheriting the title from his father e.g. the present Duke of Kent was Prince Edward of Kent until his father died).

 

[yvr girl]

What about Prince Andrew?

If Beatrice and Eugenie marry at anything like a normal age, there won't be any "of York" descendants around anyway. I doubt Harry would be created Duke of York while the Queen was still alive, even if he married. He'd maybe get an earldom and then be created Duke of York by his father after Beatrice and Eugenie were both married and no longer using "of York."

He'll most likely be using the Duke of York title for another 40 years or more. In theory, he could also still produce a son.

Harry won't be Duke of York.

 

[kimebear]

Princess Margaret was known originally as Princess Margaret of York and she was most certainly around when Andrew was created Duke of York.

The same thing with the children of George V, who had been born with the of York - Edward VIII, George VI, Mary and Henry, were all still alive when George V gave the future George VI the York title. George VI was born Albert of York and then became Duke of York in his own right despite the title having merged with the crown (normally for a son to have that happen he would be inheriting the title from his father e.g. the present Duke of Kent was Prince Edward of Kent until his father died).

Yes but. When Margaret become The Princess Margaret, she was no longer Princess Margaret of York. That pre-dated the creation of Duke of York for Andrew.

 

[Elspeth]

He'll most likely be using the Duke of York title for another 40 years or more. In theory, he could also still produce a son.

Harry won't be Duke of York.

Well, obviously he won't be Duke of York in Andrew's lifetime, but the hypothetical question didn't ask about that; it was talking specifically about descendants, and I'm sure it was understood that two people don't get to be Duke of York simultaneously.

 

[wbenson]

I'd forgotten that they'd stop being "of York" if they get married. For some reason I was thinking it stuck with them forever as it does with younger sons (and completely forgetting that Princess Alexandra was once Princess Alexandra of Kent).

 

[Iluvbertie]

Yes but. When Margaret become The Princess Margaret, she was no longer Princess Margaret of York. That pre-dated the creation of Duke of York for Andrew.

Of course but I was making the point that descendents of a Duke of York, who had held the style 'of York' were still alive at the creation of the last two Dukes of York.

In which case there shouldn't be a problem if Beatrice and/or Eugenie were still alive when the next creation takes place.

 

[yvr girl]

Of course but I was making the point that descendents of a Duke of York, who had held the style 'of York' were still alive at the creation of the last two Dukes of York.

In which case there shouldn't be a problem if Beatrice and/or Eugenie were still alive when the next creation takes place.

Except that the last two Dukes of York became King. Their children are no longer considered 'of York' , they become The Prince or The Princess.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Except that the last two Dukes of York became King. Their children are no longer considered 'of York' , they become The Prince or The Princess.

Of course but we have been talking about, at least I have, about people being alive who had used the 'of York' at some time in their lifetime being alive when the next Duke of York was created.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

It can be a little gray in areas. When her father and mother were still styled HRH the Duke and Duchess of York, she was HRH Princess Margaret of York. When her father became king, she was HRH THE Princess Margaret of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reflecting her status as the daughter of a reigning monarch. When she married, and her husband became an Earl, she was then HRH the Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon, Viscountess Linley (until her son was born), to reflect her husband's title.

Please correct me if I have any of this wrong..

But I believe after her father became king, the Duke of York title went back to the Crown, so if he had, say two sons, he could create them using the titles Prince of Wales and the second son Duke of York. Since he had two daughters, this did not happen. However, we saw of course this happen when Princess Elizabeth became queen, she made her first son Prince of Wales, and then Andrew Duke of York on his wedding day.

Whoosh...lot to type..

 

[Kotroman]

British princes - Princes of Greece and Denmark?

We all know that The Duke of Edinburgh supposedly renounced his titles of Prince of Greece and Denmark. We also know that his children and male-line grandchildren never use these titles. But is there something we don't know?

Did the Duke of Edinburgh simply choose not to use these titles or did he sign some kind of a document which legally deprived him of the titles? If he simply chose not to use them, then his children were legally Greek princes until 1974 and they are still Danish princes (unless the title of Prince of Denmark is limited only to descendants of Christian X, like the succession). I find that very interesting. All British princes from George III to Victoria were princes of Hanover; from Edward VII to George V princes of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and dukes in Saxony; and now they could all be princes of Denmark until a female ascends the British throne again

So, could (e.g) Princess Beatrice choose to add "Denmark" (and possibly a pretence to the Greek title) to her list of titles? Something like "Princess Beatrice of York and Denmark" or "Princess Beatrice of York, Greece and Denmark"? Is she legally entitled to it? If she is, then referring to Diana, Princess of Wales as Princess Diana is not wrong after all (since a married woman's own name is used in Denmark)

 

[MAfan]

Wikipedia reported that "Louis Mountbatten urged Philip to renounce his Greek and Danish royal titles, as well as his allegiance to the Greek crown, convert from Greek Orthodoxy to the Church of England, and become a naturalised British subject,[N 3] all of which was done by 18 March 1947"; however, all we know that not all is reported by Wikipedia is right or correct...
If there are no documents stating the renounciaton, I think your theory is correct.

 

[Menarue]

You have raised a very interesting point and I am waiting to hear what the experts say.