Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Somebody]

I assume its because its his highest title in Scotland and the Scots would prefer him to use that rather than Prince fo Wales?

Like Iluvbertie, I was referring to including 'The Prince Charles' instead of just using 'The Duke of Rothesay'.

In the rest of the UK he is known as 'HRH The Prince of Wales', so the comparable Scottish alternative would be 'HRH The Duke of Rothesay', not 'HRH The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay' (which would be equivalent to 'HRH The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales' - which is not how he is officially addressed).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

It is worth noting that using The Princess/The Prince exclusively for the monarch's husband and children and waiting until princes marry to grant them dukedoms were both innovated by Elizabeth. Which is not to say that Charles and William will not follow the new precedent established by their mother/grandmother, but it is not as if they would be casting historic traditions aside if they were to make different choices.

My suggestion would be to cease using The in front of Prince/Princess and to grant dukedoms upon coming of age instead of upon marriage.

In 1926 the then Duke of York's first child was born. Because she was a girl she wasn't good enough to inherit his titles but suddenly when he became King that girl was good enough to inherit the highest title in the land.

That is my point. If she was good enough to inherit the highest position in the land despite being a girl why couldn't she inherit a lower title? It is plain and simple sexism - either females are equal to males or they aren't and in the case of hereditary peerages they don't exist - they aren't good enough due to their anatomy and for no other reason.

Excellent point.

Its not a case of being "good enough". Its the law. There are lots of things that are unfiar about any social system and particularly a monarchy.....

It is a case of not being "good enough" in the eyes of the legislators who authored and maintain the law.

Iluvbertie's point was that the unfairness is inconsistent. If women were banned from inheriting the throne, then yes, it would still be a sexist social system, but it would at least be consistent with the ban on women inheriting peerages.

 

[Denville]

But unfairness is inherently inconsistent. There were reasons over time why women were allowed to inherit the throne but not peerages.. and at present, the public aren't particularly bothered by the issue so I dont think it is likely to be changed.

 

[Lunastro2020]

Charles is Prince of Wales" and so ,Prince Diana become "Princess of Wales" by her marriage. But Why did Camilla become Duchess of Cornwall but not Princess of Wales?

 

[Lunastro2020]

Why Kate Middleton and Meghan Markle Duchess but Diana a Princess?

 

[Lunastro2020]

If something happened to Prince William and his kids that make him not to become king, Can Prince Harry be heir?

 

[Stefan]

Charles is Prince of Wales" and so ,Prince Diana become "Princess of Wales" by her marriage. But Why did Camilla become Duchess of Cornwall but not Princess of Wales?

She is Princess of Wales but it was choosen not to use it out of respect for Diana

 

[Iluvbertie]

Camilla is HRH The Princess of Wales but out of respect for the late Diana, Princess of Wales she chose to use the title that Charles has held for the longer period of time i.e. Duke of Cornwall. She uses all of his other titles, including Countess of Chester, which she can't use unless she is also the Princess of Wales as Charles was created Prince of Wales AND Earl of Chester in the same Letters Patent in 1958.

All wives of British princes are princesses so Catherine and Meghan (and Diana and Camilla) all became princesses on marriage.

Diana used Princess of Wales as a title because that was her husband's highest titles. She was never Princess Diana as only a Princess born can be Princess 'own name' in the UK. Wives use their husband's highest title which means using Duke over Princess because Duke is a peerage title while prince is a title of a commoner (even Prince of Wales is NOT a peerage title). Titles in the peerage are Duke, Marquis, Earl, Viscount and Baron. Prior to 1999 those titles gave a person a seat in the House of Lords.

Currently the only wife of a British prince who is called 'princess' is HRH Princess Michael of Kent - because her husband has nothing better for her to use. She is also the lowest ranked wife of a British prince.

The Duchess of Gloucester became a Princess when she married and spent the first two years of her married life a HRH Princess Richard of Gloucester. Then her father-in-law died and she became HRH The Duke of Gloucester. She is still a princess but uses the highest of her husband's titles not the lowest.

 

[Lunastro2020]

Can kate middleton parents or siblings get Nobility titles like "Lady or Lord"?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Like Iluvbertie, I was referring to including 'The Prince Charles' instead of just using 'The Duke of Rothesay'.

In the rest of the UK he is known as 'HRH The Prince of Wales', so the comparable Scottish alternative would be 'HRH The Duke of Rothesay', not 'HRH The Prince Charles, Duke of Rothesay' (which would be equivalent to 'HRH The Prince Charles, Prince of Wales' - which is not how he is officially addressed).

Not strictly true that he uses Prince of Wales in the rest of the UK.

When on Duchy of Cornwall business or in lands owned by the Duchy he will use Duke of Cornwall.

When in Chester he uses Earl of Chester.

When he visits the 'isles' in Scotland he uses Lord of the Isles.

 

[Denville]

Can kate middleton parents or siblings get Nobility titles like "Lady or Lord"?

no, there's no reason why they should... and they wont.

 

[Lunastro2020]

no, there's no reason why they should... and they wont.

Like their daughter was married to British royal, they are one of the nobilities. Even they have royal ancestors . Like, Princess Diana younger brother Charles have title "Earl of Spencer"?

 

[Denville]

Like their daughter was married to British royal, they are one of the nobilities. Even they have royal ancestors . Like, Princess Diana younger brother Charles have title "Earl of Spencer"?

No, they are not nobility. The Middletons are a middle class business family.

 

[Sunnystar]

Like their daughter was married to British royal, they are one of the nobilities. Even they have royal ancestors . Like, Princess Diana younger brother Charles have title "Earl of Spencer"?

Diana's younger brother, the current Earl Spencer inherited a very old peerage that was granted to his family centuries ago. In the last 50 years, attitudes have changed toward the issuance of peerages and simply having a family member "marry in" to the British Royal Family does not merit, in either the public or government's view, the granting of a peerage to that family. Apart from royal princes in the direct line of succession receiving peerages with succession rights upon marriage, the only peerages granted nowadays are life peerages with the rank of Baron/Baroness, and those go to distinguished public servants, enabling them to sit in the House of Lords. These titles do not get passed down to their children. I'm sure, should public/government sentiment shift back toward the granting of peerages with succession rights, the reigning monarch would consider doing so, but the likelihood of that happening is negligible.

 

[Mbruno]

Like their daughter was married to British royal, they are one of the nobilities. Even they have royal ancestors . Like, Princess Diana younger brother Charles have title "Earl of Spencer"?

Not because his sister married a prince, but rather because his father was also an earl and he inherited the title when his father died.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I think making all grandchildren born of non-direct heirs Lord/Lady makes a lot of sense. It would be similar to the children of Infantes/Infantas being given the consideration of untitled Grandees in Spain and a better solution than giving them a hereditary title of nobility as it was done in the Netherlands for Prince Constantijn's children.


I also think that the practice of giving out hereditary peerages to sons of sovereigns and sons of the heir should stop. It is a practice that originated in medieval France to compensate for the introduction of primogeniture in the succession to the Crown and no longer makes sense today. Creating peerages for all children of monarchs would result in a large number of new hereditary peerages over time.

other monarchies give peerages to members of the family, as far as I know. And in the UK, its hardly going to result in a flood of peerages.. most monarchs have only 2 or maybe 3 children... if it is restrcited to the children of the monarch that's 2 or 3 in the lifetime of the monarch....

I lack enough knowledge of titles in the non-European monarchies to comment on them, but as for the other European monarchies, I believe the only recent case which is analogous to the giving of hereditary peerages to British princes is the giving of the hereditary title Count to the son of Prince Constantijn. The prince's daughters were also given the title Countess, but owing to their gender they were given it on a non-hereditary basis.

Iluvbertie's point was that the unfairness is inconsistent. If women were banned from inheriting the throne, then yes, it would still be a sexist social system, but it would at least be consistent with the ban on women inheriting peerages.

But unfairness is inherently inconsistent. There were reasons over time why women were allowed to inherit the throne but not peerages.. [...]

But those two sets of laws could have been formulated to be consistent with each other. I would be curious about the reasons they were not, but that is probably better discussed in the succession thread.

All wives of British princes are princesses so Catherine and Meghan (and Diana and Camilla) all became princesses on marriage.

Diana used Princess of Wales as a title because that was her husband's highest titles. She was never Princess Diana as only a Princess born can be Princess 'own name' in the UK.

Indeed, the court never refers to princesses by marriage as Princess 'own name' - albeit many other people in the UK do so, especially regarding the late Diana. Even the recent independent report by Lord Dyson on the BBC's interview of the late Princess of Wales referred to the princess as 'Princess Diana'.

If something happened to Prince William and his kids that make him not to become king, Can Prince Harry be heir?

Yes, the Duke of Sussex is next in line to the throne after the Cambridge children.

https://www.royal.uk/succession

 

[Lunastro2020]

What was Princess Diana's title after her divorce?

Is Mountbatten-Winsor a title ?

 

[Denville]

Is Mountbatten-Winsor a title ?

its "Mountbatten Windsor" and it is not a title, it is the surname for the queen's children

What was Princess Diana's title after her divorce?

Diana Princess of Wales.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

Another consideration with the York title is that a title isn't usually given if there are still family members alive who used that designation

It has actually occurred on a number of occasions, for example, Elizabeth's father was given the dukedom of York in the lifetime of his former 'of York' siblings, and Philip was given the dukedom of Edinburgh in the lifetime of the former Princess Beatrice of Edinburgh.

Prince Ernest Augustus was even given the dukedom of Cumberland in 1799, at a time when the widow of the previous Duke of Cumberland was still using the title Duchess of Cumberland.

e.g. Princess Beatrice 'of York'. Technically she is still a 'Princess ... of York' even though she, like her sister, have dropped the 'of York' to take on their husband's names.

For the moment the sisters remain "of York" on the websites of their respective charities and "York" on the websites of their respective employers, although both do appear to be winding down their usage of "of York" and transitioning to plain Princess Beatrice and Princess Eugenie. The palace refers to them by their husbands' names as Princess Beatrice, Mrs. Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi and Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank, but the princesses themselves are not using their husbands' names, as far as I am aware.

On a related note, that is something I find puzzling. My understanding is that in the UK (and other Western countries), married women either change their names the moment they marry or they do not change their names. Why is it that the granddaughters of Elizabeth II (Zara, Eugenie, and Beatrice) all continued their maiden names for a brief time after marriage and only slowly transitioned to new names?

 

[Denville]

It




On a related note, that is something I find puzzling. My understanding is that in the UK (and other Western countries), married women either change their names the moment they marry or they do not change their names. Why is it that the granddaughters of Elizabeth II (Zara, Eugenie, and Beatrice) all continued their maiden names for a brief time after marriage and only slowly transitioned to new names?

There's no law that says a woman has to change her name on marriage. And Zara was known professionally in her riding career as Zara Phillips so it made sense to keep her old name for a time and then change if she wanted to. I still keep my own name but I have occasionally used my husband's surname...

 

[Tatiana Maria]

There's no law that says a woman has to change her name on marriage. And Zara was known professionally in her riding career as Zara Phillips so it made sense to keep her old name for a time and then change if she wanted to. I still keep my own name but I have occasionally used my husband's surname...

But I was referring to the unusual timing of the changes: several years after marriage, as opposed to on marriage. As I said, my understanding was that married women typically either change their names on marriage or they never change their names at all. I am curious about the reasoning for changing names gradually for several years after the marriage.

 

[Lunastro2020]

Diana Princess of Wales.

She was known as "Princess of Wales" even after her divorce?If a women divorced from a prince, can she still get a title?

Why don't Princess Anne children's don't have titles ?

 

[Denville]

But I was referring to the unusual timing of the changes: several years after marriage, as opposed to on marriage. As I said, my understanding was that married women typically either change their names on marriage or they never change their names at all. I am curious about the reasoning for changing names gradually for several years after the marriage.

Well, I dont know when Zara started to use Tindall.. so I can't answer. But there's nothing to stop women changing their minds, in UK law you can call yourself anything so long as you dont use it to commit a fraud. So if Zara chose at first to be Phillips and then later changed to Tindall, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[Lunastro2020]

Why don't British royal family don't have title"Crown Prince/Crown Princess"? Prince Charles is 1st line in throne but Still known as Prince ?

 

[Denville]

She was known as "Princess of Wales" even after her divorce?If a women divorced from a prince, can she still get a title?

What do you mean by "get a title"? No, as we've said, in hte UK, there aren't any hereditary peerages given out now, except for senior male royals when they get married. Women divorced from a prince arent going to get a title.

Why don't Princess Anne children's don't have titles ?

Because her husband Mark PHillips did not want a title.. and titles are inherited in the male line, not the female....

 

[Lunastro2020]

What do you mean by "get a title"? No, as we've said, in hte UK, there aren't any hereditary peerages given out now, except for senior male royals when they get married. Women divorced from a prince arent going to get a title.

Pardon me! I meant "If a woman is divorced from a Prince, will they still use their title?" Like If Kate Middleton divorces, Then can she use her title"Duchess of Cambridge"like P.Diana

Because her husband Mark PHillips did not want a title.. and titles are inherited in the male line, not the female....

So, If Princess Charlotte will marry in future and have have kids, Her kids wont get title?

 

[Denville]

Pardon me! I meant "If a woman is divorced from a Prince, will they still use their title?" Like If Kate Middleton divorces, Then can she use her title"Duchess of Cambridge"like P.Diana

If a woman is divorced from a Peer, she can still use the title with her name in front of it. If Mary marries Peter Duke of Blank, and they divorce, she would be Mary Duchess of Blank, but his new wife would be "THE Duchess of Blank".

So, If Princess Charlotte will marry in future and have have kids, Her kids wont get title?

No, unless she marries a man with a title......

 

[Lunastro2020]

What will be Princess Beatrice Kids title?

What will be Meghan Markle title If incase she become queen in future?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

She was known as "Princess of Wales" even after her divorce?If a women divorced from a prince, can she still get a title?

It has not happened yet that a woman has divorced from a British royal prince who was not also a peer. However, if the Queen chose to apply the same common-law rules which apply to women divorced from younger sons of peers, such as Lady Colin Campbell, then, as a hypothetical example, Princess Michael of Kent would remain Princess Michael of Kent if she divorced Prince Michael. She would, however, lose her HRH according to the current rules.

Why don't British royal family don't have title"Crown Prince/Crown Princess"? Prince Charles is 1st line in throne but Still known as Prince ?

Because "Prince of Wales" is adequate for designating Charles as the first in line, I suppose.

Why don't Princess Anne children's don't have titles ?

They do not have royal titles because Queen Elizabeth II chose to (for the most part) follow the regulations established by her grandfather in 1917, which accord royal titles only to children and male-line descendants of British monarchs.

They do not have lesser titles of nobility because Princess Anne and her husband refused the Queen's offer of a peerage.

Because her husband Mark PHillips did not want a title.. and titles are inherited in the male line, not the female....

British titles can be inherited in the female line if the female is the sovereign or a peeress in her own right.

What will be Meghan Markle title If incase she become queen in future?

HM The Queen.

What will be Princess Beatrice Kids title?

They will be untitled, like her sister's son Master August Brooksbank.

 

[Lunastro2020]

Titles are often accompanied by places like Wales, Cornwall, Cambridge,Sussex etc. What happen if they are no longer places left?