Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Durham]

So many Irish titles once used are now extinct that were associated with the British Royal Family.

The main one's I can think of


Dukedom of Connaught/Connacht
Earldom of Athlone
Earl of Castlemaine
Earls of Ormonde (The Boleyns)
Earl of Munster

Were the Boleyns at all Irish by blood? I know they originated in Norfolk but did they marry into an Irish family or have Irish ancestry?

 

[Denville]

Were the Boleyns at all Irish by blood? I know they originated in Norfolk but did they marry into an Irish family or have Irish ancestry?

Yes they marreid inot the Butler family of Ormonde.. and Anne boleyn was half engaged to an Irish cousin James Butler....

 

[Durham]

Yes they marreid inot the Butler family of Ormonde.. and Anne boleyn was half engaged to an Irish cousin James Butler....

I didn't know that thank you. The Butlers were one of the great Hiberno-Norman dynasties of course.

The line of descent from the kings of Leinster into the English & Scottish royal houses is certainly well documented.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Were the Boleyns at all Irish by blood? I know they originated in Norfolk but did they marry into an Irish family or have Irish ancestry?

Anne's paternal grandmother was Lady Margaret Butler, daughter of the 7th Earl of Ormond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Margaret_Butler

 

[Durham]

Anne's paternal grandmother was Lady Margaret Butler, daughter of the 7th Earl of Ormond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Margaret_Butler

Thank you. I've just found this:

https://www.theanneboleynfiles.com/...et-butler-and-the-butlers-of-kilkenny-castle/

Interesting stuff.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

English law is very loose on names compared to civil law jurisdictions. Nobody has a single official legal name that they are obligated to use on all official paperwork. This is also why the various royal surnames are so murky. There's a lot of room for people to make things up as they go along, and we're left trying to find order in the chaos.

Another example of that, perhaps, can be found in the recent court judgment concerning the Duchess of Sussex, in which the judge refers to her as "known as the actor, Meghan Markle [...] also well known as the Duchess of Sussex" and her husband as "HRH Prince Henry of Wales, the Duke of Sussex (“Prince Harry”)".

19th and 6th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne (Simon Bowes-Lyon) has pleaded guilty for sexually assaulting a woman at Glamis Castle.

Earl of Strathmore admits sex attack at Glamis Castle home
A Scottish earl has pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting a woman at his ancestral home in Angus.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-55641684

And per another article, it appears the prosecutor referred to the earl as "Bowes-Lyon" while reading the charges, rather than using "correct" styles such as "the Earl" or "Lord Strathmore" or even simply "Strathmore".

So it seems that even in legal settings, the styles set by custom are not always used.

 

[Mbruno]

".



And per another article, it appears the prosecutor referred to the earl as "Bowes-Lyon" while reading the charges, rather than using "correct" styles such as "the Earl" or "Lord Strathmore" or even simply "Strathmore".

In this case, I think the prosecutor was correct as the defendant's legal name is indeed "Simon Bowes-Lyon".



Typically for a peer, the observation page on his UK passport would say something like: THE HOLDER IS SIMON BOWES-LYON, EARL OF STRATHMORE.



Updated guidelines for the use of titles in UK passports were just published in January 2021.

 

[Denville]

Interesting points. It is true however that Prince Henry was created Earl of Ulster in 1928 which includes three counties in the present day Republic of Ireland. Although at the time Eire was a dominion & so technically these three counties were part of George V's realms. I wonder how controversial it was at the time. After all Ireland had only just emerged from a bitter civil war between pro & anti treaty forces.

It wouldn't be done now of course.

I seem to remember some ill feeling about the title when a new heir was born.. in hte 1970s..

 

[An Ard Ri]

I've never understood why 2 of the 4 Irish Provinces are Earldoms and the other 2 are Dukedoms?

Earldom of Munster
Earldom of Ulster

Dukedom of Leinster
Dukedom of Connacht.

 

[Durham]

I've never understood why 2 of the 4 Irish Provinces are Earldoms and the other 2 are Dukedoms?

Earldom of Munster
Earldom of Ulster

Dukedom of Leinster
Dukedom of Connacht.

And the second dukedom in the peerage of Ireland is of Abercorn, which is Scotland!?!

 

[Durham]

I seem to remember some ill feeling about the title when a new heir was born.. in hte 1970s..

That's interesting. That would be the present duke's son Alexander.

 

[An Ard Ri]

And the second dukedom in the peerage of Ireland is of Abercorn, which is Scotland!?!

Makes no sense what so ever!

 

[Durham]

Makes no sense what so ever!

Maybe someone got confused with their geography.

 

[Curryong]

The first Lord Abercorn (not a Duke) was a Scottish politician in the 16th century. I thought the family were originally Scottish who settled in Ulster in the 17th century as so many did, and therefore the name referred to their ancestral lands in Scotland.

 

[Alison H]

I've never understood why 2 of the 4 Irish Provinces are Earldoms and the other 2 are Dukedoms?

Earldom of Munster
Earldom of Ulster

Dukedom of Leinster
Dukedom of Connacht.

I think Leinster just got upgraded to a dukedom so that one of the Fitzgeralds could be made a duke, and Connaught got upgraded to a dukedom so it could be used as a title for Prince Arthur. The earldom of Ulster's been used as a subsidiary title for dukedoms so its holders don't "need" upgrading, and the earldom of Munster was awarded to William IV's illegitimate descendants ... and I think is going spare at the moment, isn't it?

 

[An Ard Ri]

Yes I believe the Earls of Abercorn had plantation lands in Country Tyrone in Ulster.

 

[Durham]

The first Lord Abercorn (not a Duke) was a Scottish politician in the 16th century. I thought the family were originally Scottish who settled in Ulster in the 17th century as so many did, and therefore the name referred to their ancestral lands in Scotland.

Yes you're right. I did know that. It still seems peculiar not to have an Irish territorial designation. There can't be that many titles in the five peerages that don't match the country. I can only think of Burma & El Alamain. There's probably others? Maybe also military in origin?

 

[An Ard Ri]

Upon further reading both the Dukes of Hamilton and the Dukes of Abercorn both claim the French title of Duke of Châtellerault .

James Hamilton,Earl of Arran was granted the title by Henri II of France in 1548 but when he sided with the Scottish Protestants against Marie de Guise the French king stripped him of that title.

 

[VictoriaB]

There can't be that many titles in the five peerages that don't match the country. I can only think of Burma & El Alamain. There's probably others? Maybe also military in origin?

Earl Alexander of Tunis. You are correct there is the military connection. The current (2nd Earl) is 85 and only has daughters so unless the remainder allows for the title to pass along the female line or the law changes it will become extant (if that is the correct term?) within the next decade or so.

 

[Durham]

Earl Alexander of Tunis. You are correct there is the military connection. The current (2nd Earl) is 85 and only has daughters so unless the remainder allows for the title to pass along the female line or the law changes it will become extant (if that is the correct term?) within the next decade or so.

Of course! Thank you for reminding me. Alexander was a very highly regarded leader. Certainly a very different character to Montgomery, to put it mildly!!

 

[Denville]

I think Leinster just got upgraded to a dukedom so that one of the Fitzgeralds could be made a duke, and Connaught got upgraded to a dukedom so it could be used as a title for Prince Arthur. The earldom of Ulster's been used as a subsidiary title for dukedoms so its holders don't "need" upgrading, and the earldom of Munster was awarded to William IV's illegitimate descendants ... and I think is going spare at the moment, isn't it?

They can harldy use Munster as it is in the Irish republic....

 

[Roslyn]

They can harldy use Munster as it is in the Irish republic....

So is Leinster, yet we have a Duke of Leinster. How does that work in practical terms? How is the Dukedom viewed in Ireland?

 

[Durham]

I think the point was that Munster wouldn't be used today as a territorial designation because no part of that province is part of the Queen's realms.

The dukedom of Leinster was created when The Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in a personal union with the Kingdom of Great Britain. So it made sense in its time.

There is an Earl of Cork (largest city of of Munster) but that's a title held by an English planter family whereas the Leinster FitzGeralds are an ancient Irish dynasty of Gaelic & Norman heritage.

 

[Roslyn]

I think the point was that Munster wouldn't be used today as a territorial designation because no part of that province is part of the Queen's realms.

The dukedom of Leinster was created when The Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in a personal union with the Kingdom of Great Britain. So it made sense in its time.

There is an Earl of Cork (largest city of of Munster) but that's a title held by an English planter family whereas the Leinster FitzGeralds are an ancient Irish dynasty of Gaelic & Norman heritage.

Yes, I take your point. The Earldom of Munster became extinct in 2000 and would have to be created again, and that is not going to happen.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

The peerage title of Earl of Buckingham was created in 1377 for Thomas of Woodstock, the youngest son of King Edward III. The earldom passed to his son Humphrey.
Why did Charles Stopford assume the identity of the Earl of Buckingham in 1983?

 

[Tatiana Maria]

The present Duke of Gloucester (Prince Richard) inherited his dukedom a mere few months previous to the birth of his eldest son, Alexander. Is it clear which courtesy title would have been applied to Alexander if his grandfather had been alive? Would he still have been known as Earl of Ulster, the highest courtesy title available to him (which seems reasonable to me), or would he have been known by his grandfather's third title, Lord Culloden, to acknowledge that his father Prince Richard of Gloucester would have been known as Earl of Ulster if he were not a Prince?

 

[Mbruno]

The present Duke of Gloucester (Prince Richard) inherited his dukedom a mere few months previous to the birth of his eldest son, Alexander. Is it clear which courtesy title would have been applied to Alexander if his grandfather had been alive? Would he still have been known as Earl of Ulster, the highest courtesy title available to him (which seems reasonable to me), or would he have been known by his grandfather's third title, Lord Culloden, to acknowledge that his father Prince Richard of Gloucester would have been known as Earl of Ulster if he were not a Prince?

If his grandfather had been alive, I assume Alexander would be styled Lord Alexander Windsor (as a great-grandson in male line of a British sovereign) and his father would remain HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester as a grandson of a sovereign in male line.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

If his grandfather had been alive, I assume Alexander would be styled Lord Alexander Windsor (as a great-grandson in male line of a British sovereign) and his father would remain HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester as a grandson of a sovereign in male line.

Wouldn't he have been entitled to assume a courtesy peerage? The Letters Patent of 1917 stipulated that "the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms", and the eldest sons of non-royal dukes of the realm enjoy the privilege of being styled as a peer, using one of the subsidiary peerages of their father.

 

[An Ard Ri]

Why did Charles Stopford assume the identity of the Earl of Buckingham in 1983?

He was an imposter plain and simple it was uncovered in 2006.
https://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=2173695&page=1

 

[Denville]

Wouldn't he have been entitled to assume a courtesy peerage? The Letters Patent of 1917 stipulated that "the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms", and the eldest sons of non-royal dukes of the realm enjoy the privilege of being styled as a peer, using one of the subsidiary peerages of their father.

Richard wasn't the eldest son though.. he was the eldest living son. So Im not sure if he would have used the subsidiary title.. Also he had the rank of Prince.. so that's higher....