Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Denville]

Absolutely correct. Many might still complain about it in private but if they can't "get over it" that is their personal problem. The rule and laws will stand beside the new king.

If it was as simple as that, then Camilla would not have taken the title Duchess of Cornwall and there would not have been the announcement that she would be Princess Consort....

 

[Somebody]

While I sincerely hope this won't happen, it is an interesting thought experiment.

Of course, in the unlikely event that Queen Elizabeth II outlives Prince Charles, Camilla will never become queen. It is also unclear what her title would be in that unlikely event. She couldn't keep being the Duchess of Cornwall while Queen Elizabeth were still alive and Charles were not, since Kate would technically be the new Duchess of Cornwall. Maybe she would be HRH The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall then.

I assume she will indeed be HRH The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall (that would be the way it is dealt with in a normal duchy but I am not completely sure that it works that way as well with titles that are linked to positions in the line of succession).

The solution to avoid confusion would be to rapidly make the new Duke of Cornwall (William) Prince of Wales, so in daily life William and Catherine can be known as The Prince and Princess of Wales while Camilla remains known as the Duchess of Cornwall (even though she would formally be the Dowager Duchess - but that has happened before in the royal family with the Dowager Duchesses in the first half of the 20th century). And of course the same procedure would need to be repeated for George once William ascends the throne while Camilla is still alive. Although in that case, there most likely won't be a new 'Duchess of Cornwall' yet; only a new Duke of Cornwall.

 

[Stefan]

While I sincerely hope this won't happen, it is an interesting thought experiment.

I assume she will indeed be HRH The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall (that would be the way it is dealt with in a normal duchy but I am not completely sure that it works that way as well with titles that are linked to positions in the line of succession).

The solution to avoid confusion would be to rapidly make the new Duke of Cornwall (William) Prince of Wales, so in daily life William and Catherine can be known as The Prince and Princess of Wales while Camilla remains known as the Duchess of Cornwall (even though she would formally be the Dowager Duchess - but that has happened before in the royal family with the Dowager Duchesses in the first half of the 20th century). And of course the same procedure would need to be repeated for George once William ascends the throne while Camilla is still alive. Although in that case, there most likely won't be a new 'Duchess of Cornwall' yet; only a new Duke of Cornwall.

But in that case William would not become Duke of Cornwall as he is not the son of the Monarch. Liklely he would be created Prince of Wales as was done for the future George III.

 

[Sandy345]

how could she become queen rahter than William? I dont understand. And as for the title of Queen Mother that is for the mother of the King. As Cam isn't Williams mother, there's no way she could be queen Mother.

Agree. She would be Queen Dowager. If she is named Queen Consort. Princess Dowager perhaps if Charles does not become King and predeceases her.

 

[Duchess_Watcher]

Agree. She would be Queen Dowager. If she is named Queen Consort. Princess Dowager perhaps if Charles does not become King and predeceases her.

So if Charles dies now, she'd be Princess Dowager and if he lives to be King + dies she would be Queen Dowager and William would be King.

 

[Mbruno]

But in that case William would not become Duke of Cornwall as he is not the son of the Monarch. Liklely he would be created Prince of Wales as was done for the future George III.

Yes, I think you are right. I forgot that the heir apparent is the Duke of Cornwall only when he is the monarch’s eldest living son. In that case, Camilla would still be the dowager duchess , but at least there wouldn’t be another Duchess of Cornwall to be confused with her.

 

[ashelen]

He will make her Queen, regardless what it is the public opinion. She will never be as popular and loved as Diane. But she is the person who had always loved. It was ashamed that he wasn't understood from the beginning so Diana had not to endure her life living with him. One thing I will never understand after the disaster life of Margrethe's life without the love of her life how is possible the Queen did not get the message?

 

[Duchess_Watcher]

There is nothing for Charles to do to make him a prince. Archie will automatically become a prince UNLESS something is done about it.

And Archie is and will remain a commoner until he inherits his father's title of 'Duke of Sussex'. Only then will he be a peer. Whether he is known as Archie M-W, Lord Dumbarton or HRH Prince Archie of Sussex doesn't change the fact that he is a commoner.

So when Charles is King

Archie because HRH Prince Archie of Sussex

So Archie will one day become the Duke of Sussex and his wife will be Duchess of Sussex correct? I assume he will use Lord of Dumbarton until he gets the Sussex title.

 

[Sandy345]

So if Charles dies now, she'd be Princess Dowager and if he lives to be King + dies she would be Queen Dowager and William would be King.

Right now her title that she does not use is Princess of Wales, so she would be Princess Dowager if Charles does not get to be King and predeceases her. If she becomes Queen she would be Queen Dowager if Charles predeceases her.

 

[Somebody]

But in that case William would not become Duke of Cornwall as he is not the son of the Monarch. Liklely he would be created Prince of Wales as was done for the future George III.

Thanks! Great point. So, until William is king we'd most likely have:
Queen Elizabeth (& Duke of Edinburgh)
The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall (most likely known as the Duchess of Cornwall)
The Prince and Princess of Wales (William & Catherine)
Prince George, Princess Charlotte and Prince Louis of Wales
(and all others by their current titles)

Once William becomes king, it will be:
King William and Queen Catherine
The Duke of Cornwall (or The Prince of Wales - both by tradition and to avoid confusion with the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall)
The princess Charlotte
The prince Louis
The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall
(and all others by their current titles)

 

[Somebody]

So when Charles is King

Archie because HRH Prince Archie of Sussex

So Archie will one day become the Duke of Sussex and his wife will be Duchess of Sussex correct? I assume he will use Lord of Dumbarton until he gets the Sussex title.

These things are unrelated: Archie is the heir to the Duke of Sussex and therefore will one day inherit his father's title. As it currently stands Archie will become HRH Prince Archie of Sussex upon his grandfather's ascension to the throne. If his grandfather won't ascend the throne, he will not. It is also possible that Charles will decide to change the current rules and strip Archie from this title for example by announcing that for all those born after the change in rules, only the children of someone in the direct line to the throne will be HRH and prince(ss); and all others will be known based on their parent's titles. So, in that case Archie will remain entitled to use his father's subsidiary title of Lord Dumbarton - which he hasn't used so far because his parents decided otherwise.

So, unless, Archie decides differently than his parents did for him, he will not be known as Lord Dumbarton, as he currently already has that right but it is not being used.

 

[Somebody]

Agree. She would be Queen Dowager. If she is named Queen Consort. Princess Dowager perhaps if Charles does not become King and predeceases her.

To what title would the 'Dowager' part refer? Charles isn't currently known as 'The Prince'; so theoretically she could be 'The Dowager Princess of Wales' but I don't think that would go well especially since she doesn't use the title of Princess of Wales currently, why would she start using it after Charles' (hypothetical) passing?

 

[Somebody]

Right now her title that she does not use is Princess of Wales, so she would be Princess Dowager if Charles does not get to be King and predeceases her. If she becomes Queen she would be Queen Dowager if Charles predeceases her.

To keep the discussion on British titles all in one place I replied to yours and a previous post in a different topic.

 

[Mbruno]

These things are unrelated: Archie is the heir to the Duke of Sussex and therefore will one day inherit his father's title. As it currently stands Archie will become HRH Prince Archie of Sussex upon his grandfather's ascension to the throne. If his grandfather won't ascend the throne, he will not. It is also possible that Charles will decide to change the current rules and strip Archie from this title for example by announcing that for all those born after the change in rules, only the children of someone in the direct line to the throne will be HRH and prince(ss); and all others will be known based on their parent's titles. So, in that case Archie will remain entitled to use his father's subsidiary title of Lord Dumbarton - which he hasn't used so far because his parents decided otherwise.

So, unless, Archie decides differently than his parents did for him, he will not be known as Lord Dumbarton, as he currently already has that right but it is not being used.

If Archie grows up in the US and goes to school in California, I doubt he will ever use the courtesy title of Lord Dumbarton. Most likely he will be known as Archie Mountbatten-Windsor. I don't think he will be an HRH either given the current circumstances. Either the Letters Patent of 1917 will be amended when Charles is king or Archie will be simply styled as the son of a peer following James and Louise's precedent.

 

[wbenson]

If Charles predeceases the Queen, the most likely outcome is that there wouldn't be another Duchess of Cornwall during Camilla's life, but if it did come up, there's also the Marina/Alice precedent of "Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall."

 

[yukari]

If Charles predeceases the Queen, the most likely outcome is that there wouldn't be another Duchess of Cornwall during Camilla's life, but if it did come up, there's also the Marina/Alice precedent of "Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall."

I doubt she'd get "Princess". In Marina's and Alice's case, they did so to not be confused with their daugther in laws, but in Camilla's case it's unlikely that she's still alive when George marries. And considering how Louise and James who's royal blooded don't use their princely title, it will be weird for her to use Princess.

I'm sorry if it's been asked before, but had Victoria, Duchess of Kent ever been known as "The Queen Mother" during Queen Victoria's reign?

 

[Iluvbertie]

No Victoria was known as HRH The Duchess of Kent from the time of her marriage to her death as there was no one else to be known by that title.

She can't have been The Queen Mother as she was never a Queen.

 

[yukari]

No Victoria was known as HRH The Duchess of Kent from the time of her marriage to her death as there was no one else to be known by that title.

She can't have been The Queen Mother as she was never a Queen.

I see, thank you for your reply. So she still kept "The" in her title and didn't need to add "Dowager".

In this case (the one where Charles predeceases his mother), Camilla can remain HRH The Duchess of Cornwall, right?

 

[Carin]

Right now her title that she does not use is Princess of Wales, so she would be Princess Dowager if Charles does not get to be King and predeceases her. If she becomes Queen she would be Queen Dowager if Charles predeceases her.

I agree with the above poster. I could understand why Camilla refused to use the POW title which she is fully entitled to use, out of respect for the previous Princess of Wales.

However, like it or not, she should be Queen Camilla. I don't hear of any Duke, Marquess or Earl"s second wife not having the title she is entitled to, so why should Camilla not be Queen.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Possibly but a precedent would be Princess August of Saxe-Gotha who was known as Her Royal Highness The Dowager Princess of Wales from the death of her husband until her own death. Her son didn't marry before becoming King so from 1751 until her death there was no other possible Princess of Wales but she still used the term Dowager. I would expect Camilla to follow the same precedent unless she was given a title in her own right e.g. made Princess Camilla in her own right.

 

[Denville]

Its been announed that she would be Princess Consort when Charles is King. Its possible that that's what will happen

 

[Roslyn]

If it is still intended that Camilla is to be known as Princess Consort rather than Queen when Charles becomes King, I am wondering how they plan to give effect to that intention. She will automatically become Queen when her husband becomes King, so if she is not to be known as Queen, a special position, lesser than Queen, is going to have to be created for her by Charles, and that will bring with it its own set of problems. If it is only to apply to Camilla, it will be a very discriminatory thing for the new King to do to his beloved wife. Further, it will create a precedent and perhaps there will be a move for all future consorts to be known as Princess Consort or Prince Consort. I actually think that would be an excellent idea, but I doubt William would agree.

 

[Denville]

If it is still intended that Camilla is to be known as Princess Consort rather than Queen when Charles becomes King, I am wondering how they plan to give effect to that intention. She will automatically become Queen when her husband becomes King, so if she is not to be known as Queen, a special position, lesser than Queen, is going to have to be created for her by Charles, and that will bring with it its own set of problems. If it is only to apply to Camilla, it will be a very discriminatory thing for the new King to do to his beloved wife. Further, it will create a precedent and perhaps there will be a move for all future consorts to be known as Princess Consort or Prince Consort. I actually think that would be an excellent idea, but I doubt William would agree.

Presumably Camilla is OK with not being queen. If it had been something she had strong feelings about, she wouldn't have married Charles knowing that she might only be known as Princess Consort. And it does not bind future wives....
I think that Camilla would like to be queen but its not a big thing with her, and she's ok with being Charles' wife, doing her job as Duchess of Cornwall and then later as Princess Consort.

 

[QueenMathilde]

I don't know that Camilla wants the title queen. I think Charles wants it for her.

 

[Denville]

I don't know that Camilla wants the title queen. I think Charles wants it for her.

Im sure that like any woman she would want to share her husband's rank and titles.. but I dont think it will bother her all that much. She will be doing the same work.. and be the first lady.. But its part of hte problem of her marrying Charles. Rightly or wrongly she's seen as a second wife whose affair with Charles at least partly caused the breakdown of his marriage to Diana.. and if the penalty is that she's a litlte less high ranking than Queen, I dont think it is that big a price to pay.

 

[yukari]

So basically there are 3 possibilities for Camilla:

1. HRH The Dowager Princess of Wales
Precedent: Augusta of Saxe-Gotha (mother of George III)
Points to consider:
- Since the day she married Frederick, Augusta was known as Princess of Wales and her son married after he became king so no other Princess of Wales besides her.
- Even though she's actually the Princess of Wales, Camilla doesn't use that title for reason we all know about. So without Charles, would the public finally "let" her using it even with the additional "Dowager" added to it?
- Not to mention of the possibility that William would be made The Prince of Wales hence Catherine would be The Princess of Wales.

Marina of Greece and Denmark was princess by blood and with the death of his husband chose to be known as HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent instead of putting "Dowager" in her title. Alice Christabel Montagu Douglas Scott followed suit of asking permission to use "Princess" even though she's born as a Lady (daughter of a Duke) as to not to be confused with her daugther in law.

Which bring us to next options:
2. HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall
The issue with this title will be:
- The Wessex kids who are blood royal and entitled of the Princess/Prince title yet they don't use it (I doubt they will after they're 18), so public will ask why Camilla becomes Princess?
- Add to the above, this "rumour" about reducing titled royals, granting "Princess" to non-blood royal would guarantee another raised eyebrow from public.
- Since Archie would never be king's grandson from male line, he wouldn't be entitled of "Prince" title. Oh imagine the "outrage" from certain fraction when their beloved Archie is not Prince but Camilla Princess.

3. HRH The Duchess of Cornwall
Precedent: Victoria of Saxe-Coburg (mother of Queen Victoria)
- Camilla has been known as one and to date nobody has any problem with it.
- With the passing of Charles before he's king would mean William wouldn't be Duke of Cornwall. So until George marries there'd be no other Duchess of Cornwall.

I say the safest route (with less media noise) will be to keep her current title.

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

If it is still intended that Camilla is to be known as Princess Consort rather than Queen when Charles becomes King, I am wondering how they plan to give effect to that intention. She will automatically become Queen when her husband becomes King, so if she is not to be known as Queen, a special position, lesser than Queen, is going to have to be created for her by Charles, and that will bring with it its own set of problems. If it is only to apply to Camilla, it will be a very discriminatory thing for the new King to do to his beloved wife. Further, it will create a precedent and perhaps there will be a move for all future consorts to be known as Princess Consort or Prince Consort. I actually think that would be an excellent idea, but I doubt William would agree.

That is an excellent idea indeed: any spouse to the King, regardless the gender, is a Prince- Consort or a Princess-Consort.

In the Netherlands it was meant to be that way. Máxima's official title is HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands.

But suddenly, close to the Investiture, the Cabinet changed its mind, got weak knees and thought that "social custom" stated that Máxima "could be called Queen" , not as a formal title but by courtesy.


A missed opportunity to introduce equality between male and female spouses of a monarch.

 

[Hallo girl]

I don't know that Camilla wants the title queen. I think Charles wants it for her.

That is a fair point.

 

[Alison H]

I find the idea of her being "Princess Consort" really insulting to her.


Kings' wives have been known as Queens in England and Scotland for as far back as monarchy goes. To say that Camilla has to be known by a lesser title is effectively saying that she's somehow second rate. I just don't think it's very nice.

 

[Betsypaige]

Im sure that like any woman she would want to share her husband's rank and titles.. but I dont think it will bother her all that much. She will be doing the same work.. and be the first lady.. But its part of hte problem of her marrying Charles. Rightly or wrongly she's seen as a second wife whose affair with Charles at least partly caused the breakdown of his marriage to Diana.. and if the penalty is that she's a litlte less high ranking than Queen, I dont think it is that big a price to pay.

Well, IMO she doesn’t deserve to be paying any penalty just because some people can’t stand her and will never forgive her. I don’t think Camilla cares enough about it, but for me that’s not the point; she should be Queen.