Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Countessmeout]

Here is a scenario well actually a scenario that crossed my mind.
It is totally hypothetical.
If Harry wasn't given a Dukedom at his wedding
He would have been HRH Prince Henry of Wales
and Meghan would have been HRH Princess Henry of Wales
1-- In this case how would their children by styled as great grandchildren of the monarch assuming my LPs are issued to bestow onto them the dignity HRH
I supposed it would be Mr. [First Name] Mountbatten-Windsor, and Ms. [First Name] Mountbatten-Windsor
Case 2 LPs makes them HRHs/Princes
The children would then be HRH Prince or Princess [First Name] but of what. Surely it could not be of Wales, since PoW would be their Grandfather and not their father.
HRH Prince /Princess [First Name] Mountbatten-Windsor?? or HRH Prince /Princess [First Name] of Prince Henry of Wales??
Case 3 Charles ascends to the Throne, and Prince Harry becomes HRH The Prince Henry, and Meghan becomes HRH The Princess Henry. In the case how would the children be styled HRH Prince /Princess [First Name] Mountbatten-Windsor??? or HRH Prince /Princess [First Name] of The Prince Henry???

We have a perfect example to look at in the living family, Prince Michael. If no LP was issued, Harrys kids woukd be treated the same. The kids would be Lord or Lady Mountbatten Windsor. The hyphenated name is used by any descendents who don't have Hrh.

When Charles becomes king would be another matter. There have never been male line grandchildren of a monarch whose parent didn't have a peerage. Make children of the monarch Always get a peerage if some kind. There was no chance really that Harry wouldn't.

 

[jacqui24]

If I understood the point RoyalHighness 2002 was making, it was that if the royal family believed more working royals would be needed after the older working royals scaled back or retired, then Princess Beatrice would naturally have been started on royal duties earlier.

But there is quite a bit of working royals right now, and I do think that's where polling comes in as well. There is a lack of appetite for the public right now to support any of the Queen's other grandchild, and Andrew himself polls low. That certainly wouldn't extend any favorability to his daughter. It's also a timing thing. However, the story can be different when there is a shortage of royals to take on all the issues. Times change and unfortunately for Beatrice, it's not in her favor right now. Not a guarantee, but I can see how things would change in 25 years when the kids are older.

I still think the kids won't take HRH, but moreso by request of the parents than anything else.

 

[Somebody]

Their children not being prince/princess will send out the wrong message. IMO

What would be the wrong message? Imo it would send the wrong message if LPs are issued to make great grandchildren HRH prince(ss) while her grandchildren who were entitled to that style never received it.

The grandchildren who have been 'stripped' were done so at the request of the parents.

By the time William is King the working royals will be even less than there are now...he doesn't have 3 siblings and working cousins. There may be a need for Harry's children to be there supporting William/George at least for some time.


LaRae

Why? William has uncles and aunts and George already has 2 siblings.

So, if there would be a shortage at some point it would be before George and his siblings are up for royal duties but Harry's child(ren) wouldn't be able to eleviate that drop in numbers as s/he/they is/are even younger.

Well if that's really a problem then it can be easily solved. If they were thinking of the future and needed more working royals than they could easily led Beatrice onto that path and once the Wessexes became working royals it could have been made known that Louise was going to be a working royal too. The same scenario is happening if the Sussex kid/s become Firm member and Louise will always have precedence over any Sussex kids even if they are HRH anyways.

Louise has precedence over a Sussex child as long as the queen lives. As soon as Charles is king his grandchildren have precedence over his nieces and nephews.

 

[alvinking]

Louise has precedence over a Sussex child as long as the queen lives. As soon as Charles is king his grandchildren have precedence over his nieces and nephews.

I don't think so, when this child is 7th, and Louise will be 13th, and the precedence pretty much mirror the line of succession

 

[Somebody]

I don't think so, when this child is 7th, and Louise will be 13th, and the precedence pretty much mirror the line of succession

It doesn't. Relationship to the monarch is more important than place in line of succession (for example the princess Royal has a higher precedence than her 3 nieces although she is lower in line). However, best to discuss these issues in the precedence topic.

 

[Pranter]

Why? William has uncles and aunts and George already has 2 siblings.

So, if there would be a shortage at some point it would be before George and his siblings are up for royal duties but Harry's child(ren) wouldn't be able to eleviate that drop in numbers as s/he/they is/are even younger.

Do you realize how old they are now and how old, if alive, they would be when William is King?

William is going to rely on his brother and his children (William's) and possible need Harry's to fill in as well.

LaRae

 

[ACO]

What would be the wrong message? Imo it would send the wrong message if LPs are issued to make great grandchildren HRH prince(ss) while her grandchildren who were entitled to that style never received it.

I am not sure about messages but HMQ didn't deny the Wessex children anything. They would have been HRH but their parents wanted otherwise. Also Edward and Sophie were not going to be working royals which was a big part of that decision. Of course things changed.

As for Harry and Meghan? They will be HRH once Charles is is King, so they might feel giving them it from birth is the better opition. Or not. Harry and Meghan might forgo the titles all together.

It will be interesting to see what happens. Wasn't it announced within the month of Kate's pregnancy with George that the letters had been changed? So if they following the same pattern then we will likely learn one way or another soon.

 

[Somebody]

Do you realize how old they are now and how old, if alive, they would be when William is King?

William is going to rely on his brother and his children (William's) and possible need Harry's to fill in as well.

LaRae

Yes, I do. Andrew is 12 years younger than Charles and Edward 16 years younger, so they have many years ahead of them. By the time they need to be replaced we've the three Cambridges possibly with spouses. So, that would be 10 people (if Charlotte's spouse joins the fold) even if the whole previous generation isn't doing anything. That seems more than enough. No need to add 2 or 4 or 6 Sussexes (including spouses) to the mix.

I am not sure about messages but HMQ didn't deny the Wessex children anything. They would have been HRH but their parents wanted otherwise. Also Edward and Sophie were not going to be working royals which was a big part of that decision. Of course things changed.

As for Harry and Meghan? They will be HRH once Charles is is King, so they might feel giving them it from birth is the better opition. Or not. Harry and Meghan might forgo the titles all together.

It will be interesting to see what happens. Wasn't it announced within the month of Kate's pregnancy with George that the letters had been changed? So if they following the same pattern then we will likely learn one way or another soon.

As has been pointed out we don't know whether Edward and Sophie didn't want HRH for their children. The queen decided it and they agreed. Whether it was their wish or the queen's idea that they succumbed to we don't know.

And I am sure the queen was smart enough to consider the precedent she was setting.

 

[Pranter]

Yes, I do. Andrew is 12 years younger than Charles and Edward 16 years younger, so they have many years ahead of them. By the time they need to be replaced we've the three Cambridges possibly with spouses. So, that would be 10 people (if Charlotte's spouse joins the fold) even if the whole previous generation isn't doing anything. That seems more than enough. No need to add 2 or 4 or 6 Sussexes (including spouses) to the mix.

In 25 years (if Charles is as long lived as the Queen and The DoE we can guess he will be well into his 90's at least.)

Andrew will be 83
Anne will be 93
Edward will be 79

Yeah no...even if still working it's not likely they will be going at it full time as they are now. Physically or even mentally there comes a point where you can't.

William is going to rely on the younger royals.. none of his cousins are working royals.

LaRae

 

[Somebody]

In 25 years (if Charles is as long lived as the Queen and The DoE we can guess he will be well into his 90's at least.)

Andrew will be 83
Anne will be 93
Edward will be 79

Yeah no...even if still working it's not likely they will be going at it full time as they are now. Physically or even mentally there comes a point where you can't.

William is going to rely on the younger royals.. none of his cousins are working royals.

LaRae

That's why I pointed out that if there would be an issue it would be before William's children become working members of the Firm. In this scenqrio i would guess they will be xalled upon at an earlier age than William and Harry. Enlisting the help of Harry's children is still pointless as they are younger. So, if this is the concern, it would argue for Beatrice and Eugenie to get involved. Not for Harry's children to be involved.

 

[Pranter]

That's why I pointed out that if there would be an issue it would be before William's children become working members of the Firm. In this scenqrio i would guess they will be xalled upon at an earlier age than William and Harry. Enlisting the help of Harry's children is still pointless as they are younger. So, if this is the concern, it would argue for Beatrice and Eugenie to get involved. Not for Harry's children to be involved.

None of the grandchildren of Charles would be involved until they are out of college/military service so we are looking at the end of Charles's reign before it's likely to happen. William will need more support...that is when Harry's children, who will be in similar ages of his own, will come into it as they arrive at the right ages/time frames.

During Charles' reign there will be (assuming in good health) the same basic group we have now. His siblings, wife and children...seeing no indications at all they plan to bring Eugenie or Beatrice into the working 'group'.


LaRae

 

[O-H Anglophile]

What would be the wrong message? Imo it would send the wrong message if LPs are issued to make great grandchildren HRH prince(ss) while her grandchildren who were entitled to that style never received it.

Think about Meghan’s ancestry and you will see the wrong message it would send.

Do you realize how old they are now and how old, if alive, they would be when William is King?

William is going to rely on his brother and his children (William's) and possible need Harry's to fill in as well.

LaRae

And think about when George is King-his brother and sister (and possibly their spouses) won’t be enough Royals to do everything. He’ll need his cousins, just as the Queen did.

 

[Osipi]

Just an odd thought. Reading through this thread and catching up, I notice there is a lot of discussion about the future and "working royals" and how it pertains to the titles of various people.

The thought I had is that its very possible as we zoom into the future, that it will be possible for, lets say, the main line of the BRF (such as Charles, William and William's children) eventually will be the only line that carries the titles of Prince/Princess but what is to stop the "Firm" from having working royals that support the monarchy that have titles such as "The Duke of Sussex, Ambassador to the Commonwealth" or "Lord (name) Mountbatten-Windsor, Earl of Dumbarton" or "Lady (name) Mountbatten-Windsor"?

Its *not* a requirement whatsoever that working royals for the "Firm" bear the HRH status at all. Things may look totally different when the time comes for the Cambridge children and the Sussex children to take their places in adult royal society.

 

[Ish]

We’re getting off topic here. This thread is for the discussion of British Styles and Titles, not for the discussion of precedence, who is/is not a working royal, or the future of the BRF under Charles or William. Each of these topics has their own threads. Let’s get back on topic, please.

 

[RoyalHighness 2002]

Think about Meghan’s ancestry and you will see the wrong message it would send.

I still don't get it but if it's due to race that's dumb. It has nothing to do with that and those that always think that it affects what happens to the Sussexes need to do some research into why the child will not be HRH without the Queen's intervention under her reign.

 

[Osipi]

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that as this pregnancy advances, we're going to see the Duke and Duchess of Sussex request of the Queen that their children be titled and styled as children of a Duke and not be HRH Prince/ss of the UK.

In all cases, be it Anne or Edward or Harry, I believe the decisions were made based on the parent's wishes with consideration by the monarch. We'll see as the time of the impending birth approaches.

 

[jacqui24]

And I am sure the queen was smart enough to consider the precedent she was setting.

If the Queen intended it to be a precedent, or decided children of the younger children of monarch should not be HRHs going forward, she would have just issued an LP.

 

[Pranter]

I keep going back and forth about what Harry/Meghan will do. I can make a case for either side <G>


LaRae

 

[Anna Catherine]

I don’t think there’s any point in making Baby Sussex a Prince/princess right now. The child will have that title when Charles is King. Just wait...it makes things more complicated for future generations and younger siblings such as if Charlotte or Louis have children.

Meghan has experienced racism and criticism and some want to see the Queen dispel that by doing extra stuff, but the Queen likes Sophie and Kate and has shown her acceptance of Camilla. They’ve all received extreme criticism and breaches of their privacy. I don’t see what the purpose would be. It’s the unfortunate road every royal bride has to walk. I just think there are bigger considerations. Harry and Meghan really shouldn’t get an special treatment.

Also it’s entirely understandable for William’s children to be elevated to HRH as he will be King one day. Harry is not in the same position and shouldn’t be treated as such. It’s not a slight just reality.

Whether or not Harry and Meghan will want HRH for their children is an interesting discussion. I’m not sure. Harry does not seem to be overly positive about the “perks” of being a royal. He has tried to live a pretty normal life and been rather dimissive of the press. I can see him not wanting that for his children.

 

[Osipi]

When it comes to HM, The Queen, after 66 years on the throne, I think she's more than able to differentiate between being the monarch and being a mother/grandmother/great grandmother and acts accordingly.

Issuing LPs and determining the titles and styles of her family is part of her role as a monarch and, I believe, she acts accordingly. Of course she listens and takes her family's wishes into consideration but in making a decision, it is solely as a monarch. Not to make a statement. Not to "lay down the law". Not to influence public opinion. Not to show favoritism or any other reason than what is best for the British monarchy as she sees fit.

I have to say that, IMO, in all the years that Elizabeth has been Queen, she's done a remarkable job and hasn't put a foot wrong yet. She's written the book on "How to be a Monarch". She takes her role and her duty very seriously and her decisions as a monarch reflect this.

 

[Kataryn]

I have the feeling that each generation attributes less importance to titles in Real Life. It is not enough to be a Lord to be successful in business life and a lot of men who have a right to a title prefer not to use it anymore. Plus the law is more and more considering it to be a matter of family, nopt birth - eg adopted daughters and sons of the aristocrazy are officially allowed to use courtesy titles deriving from their parents, just like blood children.

OTOH being a working Royal is something special and while the public has difficulties with elevated titles for people who don't work for their country (like Beatrice and Eugenie), They surely want them for working Royals because this gives more importance to the actual work the members of the Royal family do.

So IMHO it would be good to allow Baby Sussex to be HRH right from birth (no need to have that discussion later when Charles ascends the throne, as the outcome will be the same and in parallel with the discussion if Camilla is the new queen or not it could really lead to enforce the hand of the new souverain to put down his family in rankl Only because the papers will write that there is a public outcry. Plus it is not nice to gain something so obviously from the death of the beloved queen. Yes, Charles and Camilla will be souverain and wife, but in case Baby Sussex is already a HRH, the rest stays the same for the public, for I don't think Charles will create William immediately as Prince of Wales.



So to connect the social standing of the children of the beloved couple of Sussex to HM's death would be unwise IMHO.

As for them having an easier life without it: I don't know. Eugenie and Beatrice survived being princesses at university and if they had been more interested in a certain topic, they could now work anywhere in that field.

Just think of some of the Thai princesses who are from a family who are considered to be god-like in their country and still they became professors at university and are internationally recognized for their scientific work.

So I doubt that being HRH would be a problem in the future for the Sussex-kids, they could decide to be known as just Mr. and Miss Mountbatten-Windsor and later probably Dr. Mountbatten-Windsor if they so chose. But to elevate them nowadays from Lord/Lady Mountbatten-Windor to HRH, so their work for the RF is better received by their people is surely a psychological problem.
IMHO, of course.

 

[wyevale]

Harry and Meghan might forgo the titles all together.

VERY few people in this country would be happy with plain Mr/Ms for the children of the Sussexes.. Lord/Lady would be [just] OK, but you can imagine who would get the blame...???
We don't want our ancient system of nomenclature wiped out [thank you very much]..

 

[Ish]

VERY few people in this country would be happy with plain Mr/Ms for the children of the Sussexes.. Lord/Lady would be [just]OK, but you can imagine who would get the blame...???

We don't want our ancient system of nomenclature wiped out [thank you very much]..

Two or maybe three different issues here....

One, while many in the UK might be very happy to have a title, Harry is in a unique position in actually having a title. He might very well see the life his cousins have lead vs the life he has lead and have an idea about what he wants for his children based on that. Zara/Peter have had very different experiences from Beatrice/Eugenie because of the lower profile their lack of titles brings. Or Harry might want his children to have the titles because it’s their “birthright”. Likewise, Meghan... isn’t British. And wasn’t raised with British ideas of nobility. So she might have very different opinions on whether or not her children should have titles.

Second, the Sussex children are never going to be plain Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs. Their father is a Duke, so even if they aren’t made HRHs, they’ll be styled as the children of a Duke. They might very well one day chose to use Mr/Miss/Ms/Mrs professionally (or Dr or some other title), but they’ll always be at minimum Lord/Lady.

Thirdly, people who are looking to make something out of Harry and Meghan’s children being titled anything less than HRHs are just looking for reasons to be offended. If the Sussex children aren’t elevated during the Queen’s reign, it will have nothing to do with any snubbing or reflection on Meghan’s acceptance into the RF, but rather be a part of the bigger plan for the BRF. Long before Harry met his future wife people speculated about whether or not his children would be HRHs and what future changes to the way members of the monarch’s family are titled will come as the reign changes. The current LPs that are in place come from 1917, and thus we’re made well before Meghan entered the scene.

 

[royal-blue]

It makes little sense, in my opinion, for a non working royal to have an HRH or be a prince/ss.

There are already a very large number of HRHs, including Beatrice and Eugene who lead mainly private lives.

I think Harry's children would benefit from from copying the Wessex children.

 

[Pranter]

VERY few people in this country would be happy with plain Mr/Ms for the children of the Sussexes.. Lord/Lady would be [just] OK, but you can imagine who would get the blame...???
We don't want our ancient system of nomenclature wiped out [thank you very much]..

wyevale what do you think, will the Queen issue new LP's...hearing anything in your circles?


LaRae

 

[American Observer7]

I don't know why this is even being discussed because I'd bet odds that the Queen will step in and issue a Patent making this child and any future children of Harry's as HRH and a Prince or Princess. She did it for William and she'll do it for Harry.

It would not look good not to do it because of Meghan and not doing could look as if she is favoring one grandson over the other.

 

[Ish]

But they’re not the same at all.

She issued LPs when Kate was pregnant because regardless of the gender of the child, that child was going to be the heir apparent and one day monarch, but the 1917 LPs only allowed for the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales to be titled, not any other children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

Favouritism also has nothing to do with it. The plain and simple fact is that William and his children are more important to the monarchy than Harry and his children; William is the eldest and the heir apparent. It’s just like Charles and his children (and grandchildren) are more important than Anne, Andrew, and Edward’s children and grandchildren. George is more important than Charlotte or Louis. It’s a fact of monarchy. It doesn’t mean that the Queen favours one grandchild over the other, but that one grandchild has a role that the other doesn’t.

And Meghan has nothing to do with it. It doesn’t matter who Harry had married, this debate would be happening. Harry could have married a Scandinavian princess and there would still be a debate about whether or not the Queen was going to issue new LPs to elevate the titles of his children.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I don't why this is even being discussed because I'd bet odds that the Queen will step in and issue a Patent making this child and any future children of Harry's as HRH and a Prince or Princess. She did it for William and she'll do it for Harry.

It would not look good not to do it because of Meghan and not doing could look as if she is favoring one grandson over the other.

She did it for William's children for one reason and one reason only - if the first born child had been a girl she would have been 3rd in line to the throne behind her father and grandfather with no chance of being replaced by a younger brother but under the existing Letters Patent a first born daughter would have been born as Lady Charlotte Mountbatten-Windsor while a second child who was a boy would have been HRH Prince George of Cambridge. With the changes to the law regarding who would be the monarch it was unacceptable for a first born girl not to have been royal while a younger brother would have been.

Had she intended on issuing the LPs for Harry she could have done so at the time.

In addition - do we know whether or not Harry wants his children burdened the way his cousins, Beatrice and Eugenie have been. Only a month or so ago they talked about how hard it could be for them as Princesses but having to earn their own way in the world. Harry's children will be the same as them - even less important as William has three children not two.

It makes more sense for Harry to make a similar announcement to the one Edward made and thus set up the issuing of new LPs limiting HRH to the children of the heir apparent in each generation only sooner rather than later. They could date them for any child born on or after the turn of the century - 1st January, 2001 and thus no one with HRH would lose it but no one who is without it now could gain it.

Remember, in the next generation George and Louis' children will eventually be HRHs but not Charlotte so why not settle this question now rather than wait?

If the rumours that Charles wants a smaller royal family then he has to start with his own descendants not with his brothers or be seen as a hypocrite.

 

[American Observer7]

I don’t think there’s any point in making Baby Sussex a Prince/princess right now. The child will have that title when Charles is King. Just wait...it makes things more complicated for future generations and younger siblings such as if Charlotte or Louis have children.

Meghan has experienced racism and criticism and some want to see the Queen dispel that by doing extra stuff, but the Queen likes Sophie and Kate and has shown her acceptance of Camilla. They’ve all received extreme criticism and breaches of their privacy. I don’t see what the purpose would be. It’s the unfortunate road every royal bride has to walk. I just think there are bigger considerations. Harry and Meghan really shouldn’t get an special treatment.

Also it’s entirely understandable for William’s children to be elevated to HRH as he will be King one day. Harry is not in the same position and shouldn’t be treated as such. It’s not a slight just reality.

Whether or not Harry and Meghan will want HRH for their children is an interesting discussion. I’m not sure. Harry does not seem to be overly positive about the “perks” of being a royal. He has tried to live a pretty normal life and been rather dimissive of the press. I can see him not wanting that for his children.

Did William's children have to wait? The rule applies to his kids too. - No! Why should Harry's.?

She did it for William's children for one reason and one reason only - if the first born child had been a girl she would have been 3rd in line to the throne behind her father and grandfather with no chance of being replaced by a younger brother but under the existing Letters Patent a first born daughter would have been born as Lady Charlotte Mountbatten-Windsor while a second child who was a boy would have been HRH Prince George of Cambridge. With the changes to the law regarding who would be the monarch it was unacceptable for a first born girl not to have been royal while a younger brother would have been.

Had she intended on issuing the LPs for Harry she could have done so at the time.

In addition - do we know whether or not Harry wants his children burdened the way his cousins, Beatrice and Eugenie have been. Only a month or so ago they talked about how hard it could be for them as Princesses but having to earn their own way in the world. Harry's children will be the same as them - even less important as William has three children not two.

It makes more sense for Harry to make a similar announcement to the one Edward made and thus set up the issuing of new LPs limiting HRH to the children of the heir apparent in each generation only sooner rather than later. They could date them for any child born on or after the turn of the century - 1st January, 2001 and thus no one with HRH would lose it but no one who is without it now could gain it.

Remember, in the next generation George and Louis' children will eventually be HRHs but not Charlotte so why not settle this question now rather than wait?

If the rumours that Charles wants a smaller royal family then he has to start with his own descendants not with his brothers or be seen as a hypocrite.

The Queen will do the same for Harry. Just watch!

But they’re not the same at all.

She issued LPs when Kate was pregnant because regardless of the gender of the child, that child was going to be the heir apparent and one day monarch, but the 1917 LPs only allowed for the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales to be titled, not any other children of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales.

Favouritism also has nothing to do with it. The plain and simple fact is that William and his children are more important to the monarchy than Harry and his children; William is the eldest and the heir apparent. It’s just like Charles and his children (and grandchildren) are more important than Anne, Andrew, and Edward’s children and grandchildren. George is more important than Charlotte or Louis. It’s a fact of monarchy. It doesn’t mean that the Queen favours one grandchild over the other, but that one grandchild has a role that the other doesn’t.

And Meghan has nothing to do with it. It doesn’t matter who Harry had married, this debate would be happening. Harry could have married a Scandinavian princess and there would still be a debate about whether or not the Queen was going to issue new LPs to elevate the titles of his children.

Ish, I am sorry but apples and oranges. I stand by what I have stated and I bet odds the Queen will do this for Harry. When Edward married, it was announced that his kids would receive titles of an Earl. Nothing was announced at Harry's wedding either before or after.

Why do you all want Harry and Meghan's kids short-changed? Why should they have to wait when they don't have to?

 

[Iluvbertie]

There were very good reasons for making the announcement for William's children.

The law was about to change to allow birth order to be the only criteria for the monarch.

Had William's first born child been a girl, and no new LPs issued, then that girl - the future Queen would have been born Lady xxxx Mountbatten-Windsor. A younger brother, however, would have been born as HRH Prince yyyyy of Cambridge.

It wouldn't have made sense for the future monarch to not be born as HRH while the younger sibling was. That is why the Queen issued to new Letters Patent covering all of William's children.

Harry's children will not be the future monarch.

Charles allegedly wants a smaller royal family but by allowing Harry's children HRH it won't be getting smaller but larger. There are rumours he would like to see the York girls actually lose their HRH and he was involved in the discussions about Edward's children.

There is no reason for HM to issue new LPs to cover Harry's children. There was for William's. That doesn't mean she won't but just that the is no reason to do so.