Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Molly2101]

Actually it looks like Earl and Countess of Wessex have children with the names Edward and Sophie "Leurs Altesses Royales le Prince Edward et la Princesse Sophie de Wessex"
Do royal houses never check proper titles of their invitees? There were some weird mistakes like these at the guest list of both CP Voctoria's wedding and QMargerhe's 70th Birthday Celebrations.
http://www.monarchie.lu/pictures/photos/mariage-princier/Liste-des-invites-Cerem-religieuse.pdf

I noticed they called them Prince and Princess of Wessex. Ridiculous error, and like you mentioned - it was not the only error in the guest list. I sincerely hope when they received their invitation it had their correct titles on it! As much as I wish our British wives received the Princess title upon their marriage like other Royal families do, they should respect Edward and Sophie and use their correct styles and titles. I think people refer to them as The Duke and Duchess of Wessex a lot, primarily because they assumed that Edward is a Duke like his brothers.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

As much as I wish our British wives received the Princess title upon their marriage like other Royal families do,.

Don't they already receive the courtesy title of princess through their husbands? Like Princess Michael of Kent. And isn't Catherine technically Princess William, Duchess of Cambridge? I realize they are not made princesses in their own right but most women marrying into other European royal families are not made princesses in their own right either. Princess Maxima is one exception and I believe maybe Princess Mathilde.

 

[Molly2101]

They do have the Princess style from their husband (Princess Charles, Princess Edward and Princess William) but you are right, they are not a Princess in their own right. Princess Maxima is an exception, but what about Princess Mary, Princess Marie, Princess Claire (Prince Laurent of Belgium's wife) and Princess Mabel (Prince Frisco of the Netherland's wife)? They became "Princess" upon their marriages.

It is just British tradition that the wives of Prince's do not become a Princess, but it is a shame as i'd love to have a Princess Sophie or Princess Catherine, though Catherine will no doubt be referred to as Princess anyway.

 

[branchg]

It's simply a matter of styling. They do become Princesses automatically with marriage as a Royal Highness. In most cases, their husband is a Peer, so their titles reflect the feminine form of the Peerage, but with royal rank.

 

[HRHThePrince]

So The Duke of Windsor was right....


The Queen Mother was the power behind the throne.

 

[Iluvbertie]

In Britain a wife takes her husband's styles and titles when they are higher than their own in their own right so the wives of British princes are princesses but if their husband has a title in his own right then his wife will be known by that title rather than the style of Princess.

The present Duchess of Gloucester, when she first married was known as HRH Princess Richard of Gloucester but when her father-in-law died and her husband became HRH The Duke of Gloucester she was raised to the title of wife of a peer of the realm rather than the wife of a younger son.

 

[HRHThePrince]

The Queen is a traditionalist who will not override the LP of her grandfather, King George V, in regards to granting princely titles to the younger children of William & Kate. I have no doubt that they'll stay Lord & Lady until Charles or William ascends the throne.

 

[Artemisia]

George VI was no less a traditionalist, and yet he issued Letters Patent granting the children of the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh the style of Royal Highness and title of Princes/Princesses. If he hadn't done so, Charles would have been (Lord Charles) The Earl of Merioneth and Anne - Lady Anne Mountbatten.

Personally, I have no doubts that should the Duchess of Cambridge's first child be a girl, or if her second child is born during the reign of Queen Elizabeth, then appropriate Letters Parent will be issued.

 

[HRHThePrince]

There's a difference... George VI's heir was his daughter and under long established tradition & practice grandchildren in the female line were not entitled to the status of British princes & princesses with the style of HRH. King George VI was 51 yrs old when his daughter, the present Queen married. He was unlikely to have a son who would displace Elizabeth in the line of succession. Therefore, granting royal & princely rank to her children were not unreasonable given she would be the next Sovereign.


When I said Her Majesty was a traditionalist, what I meant was if William & Kate's first child is indeed a son, he would automatically be a Prince under LP of George V. The immediate need to issue new LP granting his & Kate's younger children (if born in The Queen's reign) royal status would be unnecessary seeing as they would attain that rank in due course. Now on the other hand with full primogeniture being the established norm in most all European monarchies, and the UK's attempts to legalize it within the next couple years, I can see Her Majesty granting the title of Princess and HRH to William & Kate's eldest child, if she is a daughter.

 

[branchg]

We'll have to wait and see, but The Queen is likely to issue Letters Patent if their first-born child is a daughter, assuming all of the Commonwealth Crown nations have passed appropriate legislation changing the succession to equal primogeniture.

Otherwise, there is no particular reason to do so since all of William's children will automatically become HRH in due course.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

My personal opinion on this is, if their first born child is a girl, Letters Patent will be issued and make her a royal highness and princess, otherwise I think HM will follow the 1917 Letters Patent.
If HM doesn't make a first born girl a princess, even without equal primogeniture, the PC brigade will be out in force ranting and raving.

 

[Kataryn]

When British subject Christopher O'Neill marries HRH Princess Madeleine of Sweden, he probably will according to Swedish custom sharing her titles and become The Duke of Helsingland and Gästrikland. According to British law, British subjects need Letters Patent by the queen to use foreign titles in Britain and gain social precedence according to that.

I don't think she will recognize a potential Royal Highness - he could become a Swedish subject, after all, if he cared for that (if he gets that HRH at all!). But it could well be that she recognizes his rank and precedence at least like that of the son of a duke. Or nothing at all, as in in Britain the husband of a Duchess in her own right does not share his wife's title and rank. We'll see.

How do the US recognize foreign titles of American spouses of foreign nobles?

 

[HRHThePrince]

That is what I was saying all along. The eldest daughter I can see The Queen granting her princely rank. But if their first child is a son, they'll stay Lord & Lady.

When did the British monarch stop recognizing foreign titles? I'm assuming it was in 1917 when George V abandoned all German titles for him & his extended family.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I think a Royal Warrant was issued in 1932 that put an end to foreign titles in Britain but I'm not 100 percent sure. Someone else can correct me.

 

[HRHThePrince]

The reason I ask is because up until WWII all foreign titles were recognized; Saxe-Coburg Gothas, Tecks, Battenbergs, & Schleswig-Holstein etc...

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

When did the British monarch stop recognizing foreign titles? I'm assuming it was in 1917 when George V abandoned all German titles for him & his extended family.

Yes that was the beginning of the end in 1917. I don't think the process was fully completed until the warrant of 1932 but again I can't be 100 percent sure.

 

[HRHThePrince]

I gotta surprise for you:


http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s...ions/nisec1prosec/titles(foreign)?view=Binary

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

In 1917 , An Act to deprive Enemy Peers and Princes of British Dignities and Titles was passed and also in 1917 a series of Royal Warrants and LP were issued to grant peerages to German relatives who lost their German styles and titles (I think haha)

By 1932 all foreign titles were out by Royal Warrant. I'm looking for a link on the British Monarchy website to confirm this.

 

[American Dane]

When British subject Christopher O'Neill marries HRH Princess Madeleine of Sweden, he probably will according to Swedish custom sharing her titles and become The Duke of Helsingland and Gästrikland. According to British law, British subjects need Letters Patent by the queen to use foreign titles in Britain and gain social precedence according to that.

I don't think she will recognize a potential Royal Highness - he could become a Swedish subject, after all, if he cared for that (if he gets that HRH at all!). But it could well be that she recognizes his rank and precedence at least like that of the son of a duke. Or nothing at all, as in in Britain the husband of a Duchess in her own right does not share his wife's title and rank. We'll see.

It was stated in the engagement interview that Chris won't apply or receive Swedish citizenship. He will remain a British/American dual citizen. He also won't receive an HRH, if we are to go by what would have happened with Madeleine's first engagement.

How do the US recognize foreign titles of American spouses of foreign nobles?

Americans may hold foreign titles and receive orders personally as long as they do not represent the United States, i.e. Representatives and Senators or the President of the United States. Chris would legally hold the male equivalent of his wife's titles in the US but (due to societal norms in America) he won't use them nor would any American call him by his titles -- unless of course they are a royal watcher.

Hope that helps.

 

[Kataryn]

I gotta surprise for you:


http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/s...ions/nisec1prosec/titles(foreign)?view=Binary

I don't think this applies to the actual case when the British subject is actually a member (even by marriage) of a foreign reigning Royal House.
When HRH princess Katerine of Greece and Denmark married a British commoner and became a British citizen, she was given Letters Patent which allowed her to enjoy the style and ranke of a (British) duke's daughter in Britain, so she became in Britain Lady Katerine Brandram while in the rest of the world she was known as HRH Princess Katerine of Greece and Denmark.

In case of the future Duke of H&G it could be eg that he personally gets the precedence of a younger son of a Royal duke (that is: before the peers, but after the British Royals) when in company of his wife eg. - something similar must exist for the husbands of British princesses? Otherwise Sir Timothy couldn't eg sit next to his wife HRH The Princess Royal?

 

[branchg]

How do the US recognize foreign titles of American spouses of foreign nobles?

The U.S. does not recognize foreign titles for American citizens under any circumstances as our Constitution forbids any titles of nobility. That doesn't mean an American cannot hold a title in another country, it just isn't recognized legally here on any documents issued by a federal or state authority.

 

[branchg]

The reason I ask is because up until WWII all foreign titles were recognized; Saxe-Coburg Gothas, Tecks, Battenbergs, & Schleswig-Holstein etc...

Queen Victoria's daughters (except Princess Louise) married German princes and dukes and she often recognized their titles in the UK after marriage as her grandchildren would carry their father's styles and often were British subjects.

George V ended this practice for obvious reasons after World War I as his entire family was German in blood and some of his closest relatives, including the Kaiser, had fought Great Britain in the war.

Given the revolutionary feelings sweeping through Europe that ended all of the major and minor monarchies and kingdoms after the war, he had to protect his throne.

 

[branchg]

When HRH princess Katerine of Greece and Denmark married a British commoner and became a British citizen, she was given Letters Patent which allowed her to enjoy the style and ranke of a (British) duke's daughter in Britain, so she became in Britain Lady Katerine Brandram while in the rest of the world she was known as HRH Princess Katerine of Greece and Denmark.

George VI issued a Royal Warrant, not Letters Patent, granting Katherine the style and precedence of the daughter of a Duke. She was then known as Lady Katherine Brandham for the rest of her life as a British subject.

 

[Noble Consort Ming]

They do have the Princess style from their husband (Princess Charles, Princess Edward and Princess William) but you are right, they are not a Princess in their own right. Princess Maxima is an exception, but what about Princess Mary, Princess Marie, Princess Claire (Prince Laurent of Belgium's wife) and Princess Mabel (Prince Frisco of the Netherland's wife)? They became "Princess" upon their marriages.

It is just British tradition that the wives of Prince's do not become a Princess, but it is a shame as i'd love to have a Princess Sophie or Princess Catherine, though Catherine will no doubt be referred to as Princess anyway.

I had always thought that Mary was made a princess in her own right but was recently corrected somewhere on this forum. That means Marie is not a princess in her own right either. I believe that in the Dutch royal family only Maxima was created a princess in her own right. All the other ladies that married into the family were not. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Princess Mathilde was not only made a princess in her own right but her father and two uncles were created counts!

 

[HRHThePrince]

HM Queen Elizabeth, the Queen Mother was a widow of King George VI and mother to the current Queen.

I know all Royal Highness's curtsy to anyone with the rank of "His/Her Majesty". My question is did the Queen Mother have to curtsy to her own daughter? And though titled His Royal Highness, as the consort of the reigning monarch did Prince Philip have to curtsy to the Queen Mother?

 

[Kataryn]

And though titled His Royal Highness, as the consort of the reigning monarch did Prince Philip have to curtsy to the Queen Mother?

Men don't curtsy - so: no.

 

[HRHThePrince]

I mean bow

 

[Iluvbertie]

It has regularly been reported that Queen Mary was the first to curtsey to Edward VIII after the death of her husband, George V. She also is reported as saying that 'as her granny and subject' she had to be the first to curtsey to her granddaughter.

Now if Queen Mary curtseyed to her own son and grandson I would imagine that her daughter-in-law would also curtsey to her own daughter.

Philip was regularly seen to give a slight bow to the Queen Mother whenever they met in public - along with kissing her hand, often in the same movement.

 

[branchg]

The Queen Mother most definitely did not curtsey to her daughter. Queen Mary was a strict traditionalist from the old school, but it was not necessary for her to curtsey as she was a queen in her own right.

 

[Artemisia]

The Queen Mother most definitely did not curtsey to her daughter. Queen Mary was a strict traditionalist from the old school, but it was not necessary for her to curtsey as she was a queen in her own right.

I think that's not entirely accurate, branchg. While the Queen Mother didn't curtsey to Queen Elizabeth on most occasions, she did make an exception for state events. For instance, if my memory serves me right, the Queen Mother curtseyed to the newly crowned Queen Elizabeth during the latter's Coronation ceremony.