Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[Ish]

I meant Would P Harry be Duke of Cornwall if P William had died, or would that title only be used again when George is king and have a son?

But I guess if he needed to be the heir as well, P Harry would only be Duke of Cornwall if something horrible happened and both P William and P George died...

The title is held by the monarch's eldest son who is the heir apparent. If Charles died today William, the heir apparent, wouldn't be able to use it as he isn't the monarch's son, and Andrew, the monarch's eldest son, wouldn't be able to use it as he isn't the heir apparent.

Anytime the next monarch has been someone other than the monarch's eldest son they didn't hold the title (so, in more "recent" terms, George III, William IV, Victoria, George VI, and Elizabeth II never held the title; George III was the monarch's grandson, and the others were all heir presumptives).

 

[Iluvbertie]

The best examples of what is being discussed are George III and George V.

George I created his grandson, Frederick, Duke of Edinburgh in 1726 (just as The Queen has created her grandson William, Duke of Cambridge). When his father succeeded to the throne as George II in 1727 he immediately became The Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh - titles he held from 11th June 1727 until 8th January 1729 when he father decided to create him Prince of Wales. However when he died his eldest son, George, couldn't inherit the Cornwall title as he wasn't the heir apparent but could inherit the Edinburgh title which he did so George III became Duke of Edinburgh on the death of his father. Whereas George II took nearly two years to name his own eldest son and heir apparent Prince of Wales he took less than a month to give that title to his grandson.

George V was created Duke of York by his grandmother and when she died he was known as HRH The Duke of Cornwall and York (and it was using those titles that he opened the first Australian parliament on the 9th May, 1901). It was in November that year when his father created him Prince of Wales.

So based on those precedents....

When Charles becomes King, William will be HRH The Duke of Cornwall and Cambridge until he is created Prince of Wales - assuming that he is so created.

If Charles dies before becoming King, then the decision would rest with The Queen - does she create William as Prince of Wales or leave him as the Duke of Cambridge only.

If William dies before The Queen and Charles then George would inherit Cambridge and in time Charles could create him Prince of Wales but under the existing rules regarding the Cornwall (and Rothsay and other Scottish titles held by Charles) he would never hold those titles but... there has been talk of changing those rules so that the heir apparent can have the use of the Cornwall estates regardless of gender - no necessarily holding the title however.

So - Charles will inherit Edinburgh when his father dies as he is the heir apparent to both his mother's and father's titles. Should his father die before his mother we probably won't hear of the use of the Edinburgh title for some time. When both The Queen and Philip have died the announced agreement was that Charles would recreate the Edinburgh title for Edward. Should that happen Edward would be HRH The Duke of Edinburgh and James would use the courtesy title of Earl of Wessex - up from Viscount Severn.

William, in the normal course of events will take on Cornwall and Rothsay and maybe created Prince of Wales.

George will follow his father but... will only inherit Cambridge is William predeceases his father.

Once William is King then the Cambridge title will merge with the Crown and also be available for regrant should he so desire.

 

[Ish]

Bertie, that was beautifully put.

One correction; Frederick continued to hold the titles Duke of Cornwall and Edinburgh until his death, he just didn't use them primarily after being created Prince of Wales.

Interestingly, when he was king he created one of his brothers Duke of Edinburgh, allowing the title to continue (at least for a time).

 

[Skippyboo]

If William and Kate have another son, he could be named Duke of Cambridge when William is King. Since the Gloucester and Kent dukedoms have several male heirs and Andrew may still be alive so the York dukedom wouldn't be free yet.

 

[kbk]

the fact Charles will cease to be a Prince the moment he ascends to the Throne.

IMO Charles will never cease to be a Prince as he was born one (first as the son of Princess Elizabeth, under Letters Patent by George VI and now as the son of the monarch, under letters patent by George V). And in fact, the title (or maybe style) of Prince will remain one of his most traditional, official titles (styles). It goes something like Most High, Most Mighty Prince, Lord Charles etc., etc. (not citing directly!)... We'll see or listen that surely at his accession and funeral and only on that two occassions, I think.
In the past, monarchs were always titled as Princes and Princesses and additionally, Kings and Queens of their realms, for example Princess Anne (or even Lady Anne!), Queen of Great Britain, Prince James, King of England, Prince Philip, King of Spain...

 

[kbk]

I'm confused. I thought Royals take their precedence only from the Sovereign.

You're absolutely right. The official precedence among members of the Royal Family is derived strictly from their rank of kinship to the CURRENT Sovereign. However, private precedence and simply the so-called life do not cover this at all, as we see Harry taking precedence over his uncles etc.

 

[Osipi]

If William and Kate have another son, he could be named Duke of Cambridge when William is King. Since the Gloucester and Kent dukedoms have several male heirs and Andrew may still be alive so the York dukedom wouldn't be free yet.

When William becomes King, all his titles (with the exception of Prince of Wales if Charles invests him as such) will go directly to his eldest son George. In the peerage, all titles are inherited by the eldest male in relation to the title holder.

 

[kbk]

When William becomes King, all his titles (with the exception of Prince of Wales if Charles invests him as such) will go directly to his eldest son George. In the peerage, all titles are inherited by the eldest male in relation to the title holder.

When William becomes King all his titles will merge in the crown and George will become the next Duke of Cornwall and Duke of Rothesay in his right as the monarch's eldest son and heir apparent.

 

[Ish]

When William becomes King, all his titles (with the exception of Prince of Wales if Charles invests him as such) will go directly to his eldest son George. In the peerage, all titles are inherited by the eldest male in relation to the title holder.

When William becomes king none of his titles will go to George, with the exception of the title Duke of Cornwall. All of William's other titles will be merged with the crown, and even the title Duke of Cornwall will really be automatically recreated for George as it's not an inheritable title but one that belongs automatically to any person who meets the requirements.

In order for George to become the 2nd Duke of Cambridge William will have to die without having become King. Once he is King, he could recreate the title for George, but it's not really likely given as George will automatically be Duke of Cornwall.

 

[Osipi]

When William becomes king none of his titles will go to George, with the exception of the title Duke of Cornwall. All of William's other titles will be merged with the crown, and even the title Duke of Cornwall will really be automatically recreated for George as it's not an inheritable title but one that belongs automatically to any person who meets the requirements.

In order for George to become the 2nd Duke of Cambridge William will have to die without having become King. Once he is King, he could recreate the title for George, but it's not really likely given as George will automatically be Duke of Cornwall.

Thanks Ish. Somehow, somewhere, I forgot that one little detail about titles merging with the Crown once one becomes King.

Then it is a good possibility that William's second son (or perhaps daughter if they ever go for equal primogeniture in the peerage) could be created the Duke of Cambridge.

This is such a fascinating subject for me. More twists and turns and ins and out and hidden niches than a murder mystery sometimes.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

Edward Windsor, Baron Downpatrick, is the son of the Earl of St. Andrews.
What is the royal history of the title of Baron Downpatrick?
​

Prince Albert Victor, the eldest son of Albert Edward, Prince of Wales, was the Duke of Clarence and Avondale.
Has an English or Scottish prince had the title of just Duke of Avondale?
​

Before his wedding day in 1947, Prince Philip was granted the distinction of being addressed as His Royal Highness.
Was this necessary because he had born as a Prince of Greece and thus would have been a Royal Highness?
​

 

[wbenson]

It doesn't have much of a royal history. The first time the title was ever granted was 1934 (alongside the dukedom of Kent and the earldom of St. Andrews), and the current Lord Downpatrick is the first person to ever use it by courtesy.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

It doesn't have much of a royal history. The first time the title was ever granted was 1934 (alongside the dukedom of Kent and the earldom of St. Andrews), and the current Lord Downpatrick is the first person to ever use it by courtesy.

Wbenson, Thank you for the information about the history of the title of Baron Downpatrick.
​

 

[royal-blue]

I have been reading through the Monarchy Under Charles thread, and although it highly unlikely to ever happen, I have been wondering what the lives of Royals who give up their styles and titles would be like after doing so.

For instance if the Duke of York's daughter's simply became Miss or Lady Beatrice and Eugenie Windsor-Mountbatten, several years later, would they still be seen and thought of as Royals? Likewise, if Edward had simply become Mr Windsor-Mountbatten prior to marriage, and led an entirely private life, would he and his family still be seen as being royal?

 

[cepe]

I have been reading through the Monarchy Under Charles thread, and although it highly unlikely to ever happen, I have been wondering what the lives of Royals who give up their styles and titles would be like after doing so.

For instance if the Duke of York's daughter's simply became Miss or Lady Beatrice and Eugenie Windsor-Mountbatten, several years later, would they still be seen and thought of as Royals? Likewise, if Edward had simply become Mr Windsor-Mountbatten prior to marriage, and led an entirely private life, would he and his family still be seen as being royal?

Both Zara and Peter Philips have never had a title but are regularly described and/or considered as royal.

so I think the answer to your question is yes, they would be considered royal, particularly Edward as the son of a Queen Regnant

 

[Skippyboo]

Not officially royal but member of the royal family. Like Peter and Zara, David Linley and Sarah Chatto- no royal duties but invited to royal events.


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[Ish]

The Duchess of Kent tries to not use her styles and titles in much of her life - when she does charity events and the like she asks to be introduced as Katharine, Duchess of Kent, and not HRH the Duchess of Kent. When she does royal duties it tends to be a part of the big family things, but when she gets recognition in the CC it's always with her proper titles.

I don't think there really are any ways for people who already have royal titles and status to give them up in Britain - Edward chose to have his children not be styled as royals before they were born, but he hasn't given up his own titles.

 

[royal-blue]

I was wondering why Prince George doesn't use his father's subsidiary title of Earl of Strathearn? Viscount Linley and Viscount Severn use their father's second title.

Likewise, Charles was never known as Earl of Merioneth, and William was never known as Earl of Chester and Carrick.

Is there a rule on using who can and cannot use their father's subsidiary titles?

 

[Skippyboo]

Questions about British Styles and Titles

The simplest answer that George actually has a title which is Prince of the UK so he doesn't use a courtesy title from his father. David Armstrong Jones is styled as a son of an Earl and so is James. If Edward and Sophie didn't decided to style their kids as children of a peer instead of a prince, then James and Louise would be HRH Prince James and Princess Louise of Wessex

A courtesy title is used for children of peers who are not Prince or Princess in their own right. The Kent current generation are HRH Prince and Princess. The children of the Duke of Kent are not HRHs so they are styled as children of a Duke


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[Ish]

I was wondering why Prince George doesn't use his father's subsidiary title of Earl of Strathearn? Viscount Linley and Viscount Severn use their father's second title.

Likewise, Charles was never known as Earl of Merioneth, and William was never known as Earl of Chester and Carrick.

Is there a rule on using who can and cannot use their father's subsidiary titles?

You only use courtesy titles if you don't have your own titles. George is a Prince in his own right, therefore doesn't use any titles by courtesy - likewise with William and Charles. If Andrew had had a son, the son wouldn't have used any courtesy titles either - he would have been Prince Whatever of York.

The Wessex children don't have (or don't use) their own titles, so they use courtesy titles instead - Louise is styled as the daughter of an Earl, while James uses his father's subsidiary title as the heir apparent (only the heir apparent uses subsidiary titles).

 

[Rudolph]

The Roll of the Peerage kept at the Crown Office House of Lords records William as His Royal Highness the Prince William Arthur Philip Louis Duke of Cambridge

Also in the Roll, all the Queen's children as well as the Duke of Edinburgh have the in front of their names but the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent are just Prince without the

The Roll of the Peerage is an officially compiled and maintained list, intended to contain the names of all living peers and is maintained by Ian Denyar, Esq., M.V.O. and Grant Barvister Esq.

The Roll comprises all those Peers who have proved succession to an English, Scottish, Irish, Great Britain or United Kingdom Peerage.

I enquired about this and the reply I received said that In accordance with the direction of HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN Letters Patent passed under the Great Seal of the Realm style the Duke of Cambridge as the Prince William Arthur Philip Louis as recorded in the College of Arms.

When I pointed out the announcement in the Gazette about William's dukedom omits the in front of Prince I was told this is just a shorthand announcement and was assured the LsP creating the dignity specifically style William as the Prince William.

 

[RoyalProtocol]

The Roll of the Peerage kept at the Crown Office House of Lords records William as His Royal Highness the Prince William Arthur Philip Louis Duke of Cambridge

Also in the Roll, all the Queen's children as well as the Duke of Edinburgh have the in front of their names but the Dukes of Gloucester and Kent are just Prince without the

The Roll of the Peerage is an officially compiled and maintained list, intended to contain the names of all living peers and is maintained by Ian Denyar, Esq., M.V.O. and Grant Barvister Esq.

The Roll comprises all those Peers who have proved succession to an English, Scottish, Irish, Great Britain or United Kingdom Peerage.

I enquired about this and the reply I received said that In accordance with the direction of HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN Letters Patent passed under the Great Seal of the Realm style the Duke of Cambridge as the Prince William Arthur Philip Louis as recorded in the College of Arms.

When I pointed out the announcement in the Gazette about William's dukedom omits the in front of Prince I was told this is just a shorthand announcement and was assured the LsP creating the dignity specifically style William as the Prince William.

I attended Prince William's installation as a Knight of The Thistle in 2012. The Queen said The Prince William when she was reading out his appointment so I can only presume that The Queen wouldn't get it wrong (though this does go against everything I personally thought which was only children of the Sovereign or previous Sovereigns are entitled to be the Prince/Princess).


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[Skippyboo]

What did the Garter announcement call him since that was pre wedding and pre Dukedom?

The Dukes of Gloucester and Kent aren't in the direct line of the monarch while William is. The last time we had adult titled grandkids of a monarch is Queen Victoria, Bertie and his 2 sons.


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[Rudolph]

I checked the service when William was made a Knight of the Thistle and the Queen specifically refers to William as the Prince William

Queen Elizabeth II said to her grandson

"It is our pleasure that his Royal Highness the Prince William, Earl of Strathearn, be installed a Knight of the most ancient and most noble Order of the Thistle."

So that's the Roll of the Peerage and Thistle installation that refer to William as the Prince William

 

[Skippyboo]

Where was the wording of the Garter service? Was he always The Prince William or was only after the Cambridge dukedom was conferred on his wedding day? The thistle is post wedding. Garter is pre wedding. If William was The Prince before title, then Harry should be The Prince too.


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[Rudolph]

Actually Garter was a typo on my part. I'm not sure but I'll look for the order of service and see what I can find

 

[Iluvbertie]

Not necessarily.

William is the future King while Harry is moving further away from the throne.

William can only get closer while Harry will move from 3rd downwards as the years go by.

Look at Margaret - born 4th, rises to 3rd and then 2nd, down to 3rd and continue on downwards to be 11th when she died. Anne born 3rd, up to 2nd and now down to 11th as well. Even Andrew - born 2nd and now down to 5th.

Harry will be moved to the less important status while William will move up as time goes on and so making that distinction is all that is happening now. The same with any future legitimate children - William's will be born HRH but Harry's (unless new LPs are issued for his children or he doesn't become a father until after his father's accession) won't be.

 

[Skippyboo]

It seems the most likely scenario is when William received his dukedom at his marriage at he stopped being HRH Prince William of Wales and became HRH The Prince William Duke of Cambridge.

The same thing would happen to Harry when he marries and gets a title or Charles becomes King which ever comes first while Bea and Eugenie remain of York.


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[Rudolph]

http://www.stgeorges-windsor.org/as...llplate c. The Dean and Canons of Windsor.jpg

William's stall plate at St George's Chapel Windsor omits the. I can't find the Queen's own words during the installation so it appears to be something that was decided since his wedding.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It seems the most likely scenario is when William received his dukedom at his marriage at he stopped being HRH Prince William of Wales and became HRH The Prince William Duke of Cambridge.

The same thing would happen to Harry when he marries and gets a title or Charles becomes King which ever comes first while Bea and Eugenie remain of York.


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Beatrice and Eugenie will drop the 'of York' official at the time of their marriages as Alexandra dropped 'of Kent' when she married. They will add some reference to their husband e.g. HRH Princess Alexandra, the Hon, Lady Ogilvy - which is now how Alexandra is officially referenced in the CC on occasions while other times she is simple Princess Alexandra but no longer 'of Kent'.