Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[muriel]

Camilla will legally be Queen Camilla from the moment Charles becomes King.

Should the King and Queen so choose, Queen Camilla could be styled as Princess Consort, despite being Queen. IMO, this would not require the consent of Parliament, or require any legislation to be passed.

Personally, I think the neatest way out of the issue of the Princess Consort title would be for the PM of the day to advise the King that his wife ought to be styled as the Queen, and not as as HRH. IMO, the matter will end there.

On the day yes, in the weeks after yes, but when it comes to discussion of the coronation and the titles, Charles' words are going to be brought up over and over again. It was a massive massive mistake on his part and his PR teams part.

I am afraid I disagree. In early 2005, the wedding was seen as a major risk, the public had really not warmed to Camilla. IMO, this was a "safety net" or a sop that had to be offered at the time. This is materially different to public opinion and the opinion of the Press now. At the time, the Daily Mail and other tabloids used to regularly write hugely negative articles about Camilla, and to a somewhat lesser extent, Charles.

 

[Molly2101]

I have no issue with called Camilla Queen as that is what she will be legally. She will also be called Queen Camilla anyway, whether it is legal or not. Diana was always known as Princess Diana even though we know that that was not correct. In court circular documents and such, they can call Camilla whatever is chosen for her, but either way she will always be called Queen Camilla.

People call Catherine and Sophie Princesses. When Edward and Sophie were in the Caribbean for the Diamond Jubilee tour one of the carnival singers sang a song and openly called Sophie "Princess Sophie". People find it odd that in the UK the wife of a princess is not a princess.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Camilla is a Princess of the UK already because she is married to a Prince of the UK.

If you read what branchg said;

I think it would make more sense for The Queen to issue Letters Patent now creating Camilla a Princess of the UK in her own right.

Camilla is not a Princess in her own right, neither is Sophie or Catherine.

 

[vkrish]

People find it odd that in the UK the wife of a prince is not a princess.

I would put it other way..
People find it odd that why in some countries every woman in the RF is called a princess without any distinction..
OK
I would like to say something..It seems at first look that UK (or BRF) discriminates those marrying in by not styling them Princesses.
Actually BRF does far more justice to its women than other RFs in terms of styling. Every woman is given a given a specific title and identity (of course following her husband's) such that her full style is enough to completely describe her rank and place.
But in other RFs, we just have Princess X, Princess Y etc..she maybe anything, from the Queen-in-waiting or Queen-Consort-in-waiting or a daughter of a monarch or a niece of a monarch or a wife of a niece of a monarch or a monarch's cousin's wife or daughter....the list goes on..very very vague..
BTW as others mentioned, every woman marrying into BRF is a Princess, though they are styled more meaningfully.. So there is nothing to worry about "obsessed-with-Princess-title-brigade" finding it odd.. Real royal watchers more involved in intricacies of royalty will definitely enjoy the BRF styling than the "Princess-boom"

 

[Iluvbertie]

The wife of a prince, in the UK, is a Princess but the problem is that people don't understand that prince is a lower title in the UK than Duke or Earl.

 

[branchg]

It was made clear in 2005 that legislation would be required for Camilla to use the title of Princess Consort once Charles becomes King. She will cease to be a Princess and become HM The Queen as the wife of The Sovereign. She has no right to use a lower title because Charles will no longer be a son of The Sovereign.

 

[branchg]

The wife of a prince, in the UK, is a Princess but the problem is that people don't understand that prince is a lower title in the UK than Duke or Earl.

It is a courtesy style signifying a blood relationship to The Sovereign and degree of succession to the throne. Princes and Princesses do hold superior rank and precedence to Peers as HRH, but remain commoners unless they are raised to the Peerage or become The Sovereign.

 

[Huddo74]

Is Catherines full title HRH Princess William of wales the Duchess of Cambridge?...

 

[BrazilianEmpire]

Is Catherines full title HRH Princess William of wales the Duchess of Cambridge?...

She is Her Royal Highness Princess William Arthur Philip Louis, Duchess of Cambridge, Countess of Strathearn, Baroness Carrickfergus.

Prince William is not "of Wales" anymore.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It is a courtesy style signifying a blood relationship to The Sovereign and degree of succession to the throne. Princes and Princesses do hold superior rank and precedence to Peers as HRH, but remain commoners unless they are raised to the Peerage or become The Sovereign.

I am fully aware of this - but many people aren't and can't understand why Kate isn't called 'Princess' and so think that she doesn't have that right when the reason she isn't called Princess Kate/Catherine/William is that William was promoted from commoner to peer of the realm on their wedding day - while she went from commoner to commoner and simply changed her style.

 

[Lady Kathleen]

As we're going down this road again, I kind of find it ironic that should Parliament pass legislation to allow the title of Princess Consort for Camilla, she will have attained something that no royal spouse has. She would be Princess Camilla in her own right. No Queen Consort has ever attained that. To me, that would be a slap in the face to those that have gone before her.

If Camilla is granted the title of Princess Consort, she would would be The Princess Consort, not Princess Camilla.

 

[Ish]

But the point will still remain that a royal title will have to be created for Camilla - something that no other female consort has had done.

In creating her HRH The Princess Consort they're creating her a Princess of the United Kingdom in her own right. Although, personally I don't have a problem with that as it makes her equal to other male consorts that have preceded her - the DoE is a Prince of the United Kingdom in his own right. In comparing Camilla to Sophie in this case we're forgetting that Camilla is married to the heir (and when this all happens, she'll be married to the monarch), while Sophie isn't.

 

[muriel]

It was made clear in 2005 that legislation would be required for Camilla to use the title of Princess Consort once Charles becomes King.

Was it? Would you have any links in support? I thought all that was clarified was that she would be legally the Princess of Wales and HM The Queen.

 

[Jacknch]

Was it? Would you have any links in support? I thought all that was clarified was that she would be legally the Princess of Wales and HM The Queen.

Was legislation required for Prince Albert to be granted the title Prince Consort? If not, then I cannot imagine legislation will be needed if the Duchess of Cornwall becomes known as Princess Consort.

I'm not sure whether legality comes into any of this, is it not more a customery related issue than a legal one?

 

[Iluvbertie]

Giving a Prince the title of Prince Consort required LPs - just as creating a Prince any title such as Duke of Cambridge.

Taking away a title requires legislation - particularly when the title is to deprive a woman of her rights to her husband's titles.

As she stops being a Princess when Charles becomes King she will have to be deprived of her title of Queen and then be created a Princess - as she will no longer be a Princess when she is Queen.

 

[muriel]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Camilla will stop being Queen (which, I agree, will require legislation). She will legally remain so, quite as she is currently the Princess of Wales. She could merely be styled as HRH Princess Consort, which I think could be effected by LPs.

 

[branchg]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Camilla will stop being Queen (which, I agree, will require legislation). She will legally remain so, quite as she is currently the Princess of Wales. She could merely be styled as HRH Princess Consort, which I think could be effected by LPs.

Camilla can only be styled by the titles held by Charles as she has no title of her own. Her rank is HRH The Princess Charles as the wife of a son of The Sovereign. She currently uses Duchess of Cornwall as her title, which is fine because her husband is The Duke.

Once Charles is King, she will cease to be a Princess and become Queen. For her to use the style of Princess Consort, she has to be created a Princess of the UK in her own right. While this can be done by issuing Letters Patent, a legal question would arise that Parliament would have to address due to the fact there is no precedent for such a move and implies a morganatic marriage.

So, it could happen, yes, but only if Parliament agrees there is no issue, which I doubt will be the case.

 

[AdmirerUS]

The Monarchy homepage says the following (the tone and language is interesting):
Born Camilla Rosemary Shand, after her marriage to The Prince of Wales, Her Royal Highness chose to use the title The Duchess of Cornwall.

In Scotland, Her Royal Highness is known as The Duchess of Rothesay.

As The Prince is the Earl of Chester, Her Royal Highness also holds the title The Countess of Chester.

When The Prince accedes to The Throne, it is intended that The Duchess will use the title HRH The Princess Consort. http://www.royal.gov.uk/ThecurrentRoyalFamily/TheDuchessofCornwall/StyleandTitles.aspx

There is less on the POW website and the difference between the two in intriguing:
Upon her marriage to The Prince of Wales, Her Royal Highness decided to use the title The Duchess of Cornwall, as her husband is also known as The Duke of Cornwall.

When in Scotland, Her Royal Highness is known as The Duchess of Rothesay.
Her Royal Highness was granted a Royal Coat of Arms by The Queen soon after her marriage to The Prince of Wales.
The Coat of Arms granted to Her Royal Highness is known as an impaled Coat of Arms, and it brings together The Prince of Wales's Coat of Arms with that of The Duchess's father, the late Major Bruce Shand.

The Duchess of Cornwall was also made a Grand Dame Cross of the Royal Victorian Order, which is an honour made by the Sovereign in recognition of personal service. Titles and Heraldry


Mods - if I've stepped over the bounds here on copying text - I apologize. Here in the states, government web pages are free game as long as you cite them. Permission to copy is not needed.

 

[Warren]

Regarding quoting material from The British Monarchy website, the fine print states "You may re-use the Crown copyright protected material...free of charge in any format for non-commercial research...The material must be acknowledged as Crown copyright and you must give the title of the source document/publication."
You have reproduced the material here at TRF as non-commercial research and have provided due attribution. Therefore all good.

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'Prince Consort'
I believe that one part of the problem that some members have with British Royal titles is the failure to distinguish between a descriptive term and a formal title.

For example, an essay on "European Crown Princesses" would include the Duchess of Cornwall. Obviously Camilla is not the Crown Princess of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland etc as no such title exists. But... the term "Crown Princess" in this context correctly describes her position as the wife of the heir to the throne. Similarly the Hereditary Grand Duchess of Luxembourg and the Hereditary Princess of Liechtenstein would also be included in any list of "Europe's Crown Princesses" although neither is formally titled "Crown Princess". The term is purely descriptive and most everyone knows exactly what it means and signifies.

The term "Prince Consort" when used generally describes the position of the spouse of a Queen Regnant as there is no convention anywhere that the husband of a Reigning Queen takes the title of King or King Consort. Prince Philip is a prince consort in descriptive terms but he is not THE Prince Consort. Simply because 'Prince Consort' in United Kingdom usage is a royal title that has been granted once only and that was to Prince Albert simply because Queen Victoria wished to enhance her husband's status.

Even so, Prince Albert's new Royal title carried no extra formal or legal precedence, privileges or rights just as the traditional Royal title of Princess Royal is purely honorific, a "gift" of the Monarch, denoting the bearer as the [eldest and non-inheriting] daughter of the Sovereign and ensuring that she "stands out" from the other Princesses of the Realm.

Short version: "prince consort" is a descriptive term for the husband of a Reigning Queen. Athough some monarchies may formalise it as the royal title borne by the husband of their Queen Regnant, Britain does not.

In the UK the title of a Queen Regnant's spouse is whatever he was born with or whatever he has been granted by Royal favour. Thus Lt Philip Mountbatten, having discarded his royal Greek title, was created Duke of Edinburgh etc by George VI when he married Princess Elizabeth and some years later was made a Prince of the United Kingdom by Elizabeth II.

I hope this helps to clarify why the Queen's husband is a prince consort but not THE Prince Consort and is very rarely described as such in any formal context.

NB.. the last few pages of this thread have little relevance to the topic of 'the Order of Precedence' and will shortly be moved over to the 'Styles and Titles' thread.

 

[Anth]

Is there a reason why queens consort aren't styled, for example, Queen Charles? (sounds a bit silly I know.) Camilla is obviously Princess Charles as a courtesy and doesn't hold the princess title in her own right - but why does it differ for queens consort? They, too assume their titles and styling from their husband (the king) don't they?

 

[vkrish]

Is there a reason why queens consort aren't styled, for example, Queen Charles? (sounds a bit silly I know.) Camilla is obviously Princess Charles as a courtesy and doesn't hold the princess title in her own right - but why does it differ for queens consort? They, too assume their titles and styling from their husband (the king) don't they?

Hey..good one..I laughed when i read it first..But on second thought, if 'Princess Charles' is not silly/funny, then Queen Charles should also be not..right?

 

[Osipi]

Hey..good one..I laughed when i read it first..But on second thought, if 'Princess Charles' is not silly/funny, then Queen Charles should also be not..right?

In the case of Princess Michael, she is using the feminine styling from her husband Prince Michael who holds no other titles for her to use. I believe that the full title of a Queen Consort is HM The Queen as her husband is HM The King.

Could it be that Queen Consort is more of a description of the type of Queen Camilla would be? I've seen the Queen Mum referred to as HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother but that was to differentiate between mother and daughter that have the same first names. As far as I know, I've never heard HM addressed as HM, The Queen Regnant.

 

[Jacknch]

A new question (I think!) - does a person's style and title change at all if there becomes a regency?

 

[Ish]

Is there a reason why queens consort aren't styled, for example, Queen Charles? (sounds a bit silly I know.) Camilla is obviously Princess Charles as a courtesy and doesn't hold the princess title in her own right - but why does it differ for queens consort? They, too assume their titles and styling from their husband (the king) don't they?

While I understand where you're going here, the answer is actually really simple: a Queen's title isn't "Queen [Name]" it's "The Queen." No need for either her name or her husband's.

A consort's name comes into play when she is the Dowager Queen (or a Queen Mother, which is a type of Dowager Queen). So, Mary of Teck, for example, was HM The Queen while George V was alive, and became HM Queen Mary after his death.

[QUOTE="Osipi;1618670"Could it be that Queen Consort is more of a description of the type of Queen Camilla would be? I've seen the Queen Mum referred to as HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother but that was to differentiate between mother and daughter that have the same first names. As far as I know, I've never heard HM addressed as HM, The Queen Regnant.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. HM's title (the shortened form) is just The Queen. The longer form just adds her name and realms and secondary titles - at no point is it explicitly stated in her title that she's the Queen Regent, it's simply implied that you know that given as she's the monarch.

The Queen Mother's title took form because she had the same given name as HM. Had they had different names then HM would have been The Queen and the Queen Mother would have been Queen [Name], much like with previous consorts - Mary of Teck had been Queen Mother during the reigns of Edward VIII and George VI but didn't use the distinction, same with Alexandra.

 

[Ish]

A new question (I think!) - does a person's style and title change at all if there becomes a regency?

A title changes, the style stays the same.

We see this with George IV. Prior to becoming regent he was HRH The Prince of Wales. After becoming regent he was HRH The Prince Regent - he was still PoW, but Prince Regent was the higher title.

 

[branchg]

In the case of Princess Michael, she is using the feminine styling from her husband Prince Michael who holds no other titles for her to use. I believe that the full title of a Queen Consort is HM The Queen as her husband is HM The King. Could it be that Queen Consort is more of a description of the type of Queen Camilla would be? I've seen the Queen Mum referred to as HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother but that was to differentiate between mother and daughter that have the same first names. As far as I know, I've never heard HM addressed as HM, The Queen Regnant.

Once a woman becomes Queen Consort, she is HM The Queen as the wife of The Sovereign, but she is also HM Queen Christian Name in her own right for life. If she is widowed, she becomes a dowager queen with precedence after a regnant Queen or Queen Consort.

The Queen Mother used the style of "HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother" to differentiate herself from her daughter, plus she was the first dowager queen to ever see a daughter become The Sovereign.

 

[Ish]

The Queen Mother used the style of "HM Queen Elizabeth The Queen Mother" to differentiate herself from her daughter, plus she was the first dowager queen to ever see a daughter become The Sovereign.

What does that have to do with anything?

The title Queen Mother doesn't mean that the individual is the Queen's Mother. It means that the individual is a former Queen Consort who is also the current monarch's mother, regardless of the gender of the monarch.

Elizabeth, Mary, and Alexandra were all Queen Mothers, but only Elizabeth used the title. Prior to Alexandra, you'd have to go back to Henrietta Maria of France to have a mother of the monarch survive into the reign of her son (Charles II).

 

[BritishRoyalist]

What does that have to do with anything?

The title Queen Mother doesn't mean that the individual is the Queen's Mother. It means that the individual is a former Queen Consort who is also the current monarch's mother, regardless of the gender of the monarch.

Elizabeth, Mary, and Alexandra were all Queen Mothers, but only Elizabeth used the title. Prior to Alexandra, you'd have to go back to Henrietta Maria of France to have a mother of the monarch survive into the reign of her son (Charles II).

You are right Ish about that one. The title did exist before Elizabeth (the Queen Mother) but she is the only one to hold that title and I read that The Queen Mother hated the title Dowager Queen and after Queen Mary died turned it down even so she was still a dowager Queen. She opted to hold the title Queen mother instead making her the first. It also helped eased any future confusion because Queen Elizabeth had the same name as her mother

in the future Catherine will be a Queen Mother when Prince George comes to the throne but whether she hold the title who knows, we will have to just wait and see. that will be a long long long time from now. We will talk about tat them, Hopeful Royal Forum will still exist by then.

 

[BritishRoyalist]

I found an article form 1953 on Google Archives which referred to Queen Mary as 'Queen Mother Mary'

The Tuscaloosa News - Google News Archive Search

 

[Ish]

Interesting - especially as the article appears to be from the day that Mary died.

So, a look at Wikipedia shows that Queen Mother is actually a style, not a title, and that it was one held by Alexandra, Mary, and Elizabeth at various points in their lives, but not used by all. It's not clear if Alexandra used it, but Mary disliked it because she thought it made her sound old. When Elizabeth used it at first I can see it having been to distinguish her from both her daughter - The Queen - and her mother-in-law - The Dowager Queen. Of course at that point both Mary and Elizabeth would have been Dowagers, but only Elizabeth was also Queen Mother (Mary not being the mother of the current monarch).