Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[principessa]

In english speaking countries are two words for "Graf", "Count" and "Earl".

When I read some genealogical lists of noble or peer-families and of course the Royal Family there are often the equivalent "Earl" but no "Count". Is the "Count" in Great Britain not existing?

I hope you know what I mean!

 

[Lumutqueen]

Is the "Count" in Great Britain not existing?

I hope you know what I mean!

The British and Irish equivalent for Count is an Earl. Such as The Earl of Wessex.

 

[Stefan]

The British and Irish equivalent for Count is an Earl. Such as The Earl of Wessex.

And the differnce to nobles families in Germany, Belgium etc. is that there is only on Earl, namely the head of the Family and not more of them.

 

[AdmirerUS]

The POW new web site is up, and I found it interesting to read his "Titles and Heraldry" page. It is one of those pages that is interesting as much for what it DOES NOT MENTION as for what it does note. Read it at:
Titles and Heraldry

Basicly, he speaks to his titles in Britain, Wales and Scotland but leaves out all the orders, etc. Camilla's like page does mention her GDRVO. The POW site does explore the the Welsh feathers on its own page - so that gets some notice.

Styles and titles are noted in Williams' bio and on a "Titles and Heraldry" page.

So, to me, the new site seems to spend little time (bytes) on the royalty/honours part of Charles' life and a great deal more time on his life as a farmer, artist, champion of organic food, diversity, good architecture, etc. Given how he has lived his life - I found it fitting. But I wonder what it bodes for his reign. Interesting...

 

[Rocketmom]

Forgive me if this is a repeat....I scanned a lot of the pages to see if this was asked but didn't closely read all 78 pages

Why was Diana stripped of HRH title but Sarah Ferguson got to keep her Duchess of York title? Also, why was Diana titled Princess Diana but Catherine is Princess William.?

Thanks

 

[Stefan]

Forgive me if this is a repeat....I scanned a lot of the pages to see if this was asked but didn't closely read all 78 pages

Why was Diana stripped of HRH title but Sarah Ferguson got to keep her Duchess of York title? Also, why was Diana titled Princess Diana but Catherine is Princess William.?

Thanks

Sarah did not keep the Title Duchess of Yorjk but her anem has become Sarah, Duchess of York after the divorce. And for Diana it was Diana, Pricness of Wales. It is the same for the divorced wives of other peers. And Diana's title during the marriage was officially The Princess of Wales never Princess Diana.

 

[branchg]

The style and rank of Royal Highness arrived with their marriage and departed with divorce as they were no longer wives of sons of The Sovereign. Like all former wives of Peers, their titles became a style, similar to a surname, and they lost all rank and precedence because they were no longer "The" Duchess of York or "The" Princess of Wales.

In Diana's case, The Queen made special allowance for her position as the mother of a future King in an announcement from the Palace, stating Diana remained a member of the royal family and would be accorded her former precedence on all state and national occasions. In other words, she was no longer a Royal Highness, but would continue to be treated as such on certain occasions as the mother of Prince William.

 

[Lumutqueen]

Forgive me if this is a repeat....I scanned a lot of the pages to see if this was asked but didn't closely read all 78 pages

Why was Diana stripped of HRH title but Sarah Ferguson got to keep her Duchess of York title? Also, why was Diana titled Princess Diana but Catherine is Princess William.?

Thanks

Diana was stripped of her HRH because she was no longer married to one. .
Sarah did not keep her title as The Duchess of York, she holds the style of a divorced wife of a peer, Sarah, Duchess of York.

Diana wasn't titled Princess Diana, she was given that title by the press and the public, some say after the whole People's Princess speech. Diana was until the day she divorced The Princess Charles, or commonly known as The Princess of Wales. Catherine will hold that title when her husband is coronated as Prince of Wales.

 

[branchg]

Diana was never "Princess Diana" but was informally referred to as such, even though it was always incorrect. But the Palace and Household often used that style as well in referring to her, so it's probably safe to say it was tolerated since she was the mother of a future King.

Diana also remained a princess in style after the divorce, although downgraded by the loss of HRH. She wasn't "stripped" of her royal rank as a vindictive move....it arrived with marriage and departed with divorce, as confirmed by the issuance of Letters Patent in August 1996 stating a former wife of a son or male-line grandson of The Sovereign would not be entitled to hold the style of HRH upon divorce.

Diana and Sarah were the first women to divorce a Prince of the UK so it was logical that Letters Patent were issued to clarify how this new development would be addressed.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It is interesting to note that the LPs confirming the loss of the HRH was only issued AFTER Diana's divorce.

Sarah actually remained HRH from her divorce until the August LPs that year.

Both ladies became Princesses of the UK and HRHs when they married - just as Kate, Camilla, Sophie, Birgitte, Katherine and Marie-Christine have done. However as their husbands had other titles they used those titles rather than the lower Princess style - like Camilla (The Duchess of Corwall even though she is also The Princess of Wales), Sophie (The Countess of Wessex), Birgitte (The Duchess of Gloucester), Katherine (The Duchess of Kent) and Kate (The Duchess of Cambridge) while Marie-Christine is called Princess Michael because her husband is still a commoner and has no peerage title to raise his wife to a higher status than that of a simple princess. Birgitte, when she married was also known as Princess Richard but rose to the wife of a peer when her husband also became a peer on the death of his father.

Diana was never Princess Diana officially and the first to correct people was Diana herself - never to an ordinary member of the public but to those who should have known better. She went from Lady Diana Spencer to HRH The Princess of Wales to Diana, Princess of Wales while Sarah went from Sarah Ferguson to HRH The Duchess of York to Sarah, Duchess of York.

Another example of what has happened is Earl Spencer's myriad of wives who each, while married to him, were 'The Countess Spencer' but after their divorces were known as xxxxx, Countess Spencer.

This is just the standard form of a divorced wife of a peer - to take the former peerage title and use is after their first name while the wife of a peer has on first name in official documents etc e.g. in the CC Camilla is always called HRH The Duchess of Cornwall and Kate as HRH The Duchess of Cambridge. Even the men have no first names officially when they have a title e.g. William is officially HRH The Duke of Cambridge while Harry is still only HRH Prince Henry of Wales (and a commoner).

 

[branchg]

It is interesting to note that the LPs confirming the loss of the HRH was only issued AFTER Diana's divorce.

Well, it makes sense when you consider that Diana was still resisting accepting the final settlement terms, which I believe were presented to her in July 1996, due to the fact she was uncertain if The Queen would allow her to remain HRH.

Once it was confirmed The Queen had declined to revisit the issue of retaining HRH, Diana then formally accepted the settlement and her decree nisi was issued shortly thereafter in August. I believe the Letters Patent confirming divorcees of Princes would not be allowed to remain HRH followed a week later.

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I heard that when Prince Michael of Kent and becomes the Duke of Kent after Prince Edward, he will not hold the title of 'Prince' and the style of 'HRH' (even though he already is one) and will just be known as His Grace The Duke of Kent. Same goes for the Earl of St Andrews, when he becomes the Duke of Gloucester. The Dukedoms apparently are only going to be considered as 'non- royal' dukedoms after the 3rd generation...

 

[Iluvbertie]

First off - Prince Micheal isn't the heir to the Dukedom of Kent (ceased to be that when the Earl of St Andrews was born). He is currently behind the Earl of St Andrews, Baron Downpatrick, Lord Nicholas Windsor, Albert Windsor and Leopold Windsor in line for that title - the sons and grandsons of the present duke. Michael is the younger brother of the Duke and although born 2nd in line to the dukedom has moved down that list as his brother became a father and then a grandfather.

The Duke of Gloucester's heir in the Earl of Ulster.

You are correct that when the present holders of the Dukedoms of Gloucester and Kent pass away that the next in line for those titles won't be HRH Prince but that is because under the 1917 LPs as male line great-grandchildren of the monarch they aren't entitled to be HRH.

The same thing will happen with Harry's descendents in time - as it will with Edward's son James (technically a prince now but now using that styling. James' children will never be entitled to HRH Prince but he is the heir apparent to Edwards' Wessex title and, if things go according to the plans stated in 1999, eventually James will inherit from his father the Edinburgh title but when it moves beyond James it will be held by a non-HRH and thus be a normal non-royal dukedom.

The same with Harry's eventual title - if he has sons - they will become HRH Prince xxxx when Charles becomes King but their children won't be HRHs at all (unless something happens and William has no children and so Harry becomes King and that only delays it by one generation). Even children from William's second son should he have one will be non-royal in two generations.

The title that will be interesting is the Cambridge one itself possibly - if William has a girl and the a boy and dies before becoming King then the boy will inherit Cambridge and the girl the throne (under the planned changes) and that would see another dukedom traditionally associated with royalty move out of the royal sphere.

 

[Spheno]

I heard that when Prince Michael of Kent and becomes the Duke of Kent after Prince Edward, he will not hold the title of 'Prince' and the style of 'HRH' (even though he already is one) and will just be known as His Grace The Duke of Kent. Same goes for the Earl of St Andrews, when he becomes the Duke of Gloucester. The Dukedoms apparently are only going to be considered as 'non- royal' dukedoms after the 3rd generation...

Under the 20 November 1917, Letters Patent of King George V, the titular dignity of Prince or Princess and the style Royal Highness are restricted to the legitimate children of a Sovereign, the children of a Sovereign's sons, and the eldest living son of the eldest son of a Prince of Wales. For example, when the current Duke of Gloucester and Duke of Kent are succeeded by their eldest sons, the Earl of Ulster and the Earl of St. Andrews, respectively, those peerages (or rather, the 1928 and 1934 creations of them) will cease to be royal dukedoms, instead the title holders will become ordinary Dukes. The third dukes of Gloucester and Kent will each be styled "His Grace" because as great-grandsons of George V, they are not Princes and are not styled HRH.
Royal dukedoms in the United Kingdom - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

That article was very interesting. Thank you.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Those currently entitled to HRH Prince/Princess under the 1917 LPs:

Charles, Andrew, Edward, Anne - the children of a sovereign
William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Louise, James, Richard, Edward, Michael, Alexandra - the male-line grandchildren of a soverieign.
Camilla, Sophie, Kate, Birgitte, Katherine and Marie-Christine - the spouses of male HRHs.

William's eldest son will automatically be born an HRH but under the current LPs any other children will be born as Lord/Lady xxxx Mountbatten-Windsor (although the Queen may issue new LPs herself to allow for the eldest child rather than just the eldest son to be born HRH - in keeping with the proposal for the eldest child to be the future monarch). When the Queen dies all of William and Harry's children will become HRHs but until then as things currently stand only William's eldest son and none of Harry's children will be born with the HRH.

Only William and Harry currently can pass on HRH at some point in the future.

 

[AdmirerUS]

Iluvbertie - the last 5 or so posts of yours that I have read have been solid gold. They are lucid, easy to follow and we should all bookmark them or maybe adopt them as tattoos so that we can refer back to them. Thanks for all your knowledge.

 

[DCVO]

So, I know that currently Edward's kids are referred to with the styles of the children of an Earl. But when, upon Prince Philip's death, he becomes the new Duke of Edinburgh, will James and Louise be promoted as well? I suppose it makes no difference in Lady Louise's title, but will James become Earl of Wessex?

 

[branchg]

So, I know that currently Edward's kids are referred to with the styles of the children of an Earl. But when, upon Prince Philip's death, he becomes the new Duke of Edinburgh, will James and Louise be promoted as well? I suppose it makes no difference in Lady Louise's title, but will James become Earl of Wessex?

When Philip dies, his peerages will pass to Charles as his eldest son, or his grandson, William, if Charles did not survive his father. Charles and/or William would become the 2nd Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth and Baron Greenwich in addition their own titles.

Since Charles or William will become King upon the death of The Queen, all of their Peerages would merge with the Crown. If Philip dies after The Queen, his titles would immediately merge with the Crown as his male heir would be The Sovereign. In either scenario, a new creation of the Dukedom of Edinburgh would then be granted to Prince Edward.

James would use the courtesy title of Earl of Wessex once his father is created Duke of Edinburgh as his male heir, rather than Viscount Severn.

 

[Iluvbertie]

So, I know that currently Edward's kids are referred to with the styles of the children of an Earl. But when, upon Prince Philip's death, he becomes the new Duke of Edinburgh, will James and Louise be promoted as well? I suppose it makes no difference in Lady Louise's title, but will James become Earl of Wessex?

If you mean will they then start using HRH Prince/Princess - probably not as they are being raised without those styles and I doubt that they will ever use them.

If you mean will their current styles change - then yes.

It will depend on how Edward (if he gets it) becomes Duke of Edinburgh. If, as expected, it is recreated for him after the death of both of his parents and thus has merged with the Crown then James would become the Earl of Wessex as that title would be lower than the title of Duke and would be Edward senior subsidiary title. If Edward somehow inherited all of Philip's titles (unlikely I know) then James would use Earl of Merioneth as it was created earlier than Wessex.

Without spelling out the myriad of scenarios again may I refer you to my posts from 2009 on this topic.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums/f23/the-future-of-the-duke-of-edinburgh-title-24343.html

 

[HRHThePrince]

I read somewhere years ago that Princess Alice, Countess of Athlone, a granddaughter of Queen Victoria was pretty upset that Elizabeth II allowed her uncle's widow, Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester to be titled "Princess Alice" feeling that if she didn't wanna be known as The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester, her style & title should have reverted to
HRH Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester as a Princess-by-Marriage. I guess the name familiarity was what ticked her off.

 

[Iluvbertie]

To a certain extent because she was born a Princess and The Duchess of Gloucester wasn't.

It is never done to refer to a wife as HRH The Princess male name, The Duchess of xxxx e.g. HRH The Princess Richard, The Duchess of Gloucester isn't the correct form and HRH The Princess Henry, The Duchess of Gloucester was never the late Princess Alice's style - when she married she lost any name officially at all but simply became HRH The Duchess of Gloucester. To revert to HRH The Princess Henry would be to deny the fact that she had married a peer of the realm and indicate that she had married an untitled son. On her becoming a widow the options were to insist on HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester or allow her the special style of HRH Princess Alice.

 

[branchg]

Alice was automatically The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester with her husband's death since her daughter-in-law, Brigitte, became the new Duchess of Gloucester. To style her "HRH The Princess Henry, Duchess of Gloucester" was technically correct, but The Queen chose to grant her aunt the courtesy of being known as Princess Alice as she was the mother of a male-line grandson of George V.

Princess Alice, Countess of Althone was much lower down the list of precedence than the dowager duchess was at the time of her husband's death.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Technically the wife of a peer has no name, nor does the peer - to call Henry HRH The Prince Henry, The Duke of Gloucester is wrong - one or the other but not both. The only exception is The Duke of Rothesay title in Scotland - which is HRH The Prince xxxx, The Duke of Rothesay but for all other peers they don't have both a name and a title - one or the other is the official reference so either HRH The Dowager Duchess of Gloucester or HRH The Princess Henry but not together.

 

[branchg]

Yes, but that's because their style as Prince/Princess takes precedence after their status as Peers. Their title reflects their Peerage, but with royal rank as HRH. And many Peers do have names, including surnames, but they traditionally are referred to by their titles.

 

[ladongas]

Call the Midwife

In a recently shown (US) episode of this show, the character of "Chummy's" mother appeared. The sister called her "Lady Stafford Chomondely Brown" and was permitted to call her merely "Lady Brown".

What does the title of Lady indicate in her case? Could she be the wife of a KBE?

Thank you. The spelling of Chomondely is a guess.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Lady could be the either the daughter of a peer, the wife of a peer or the wife of a knight. e.g. The wife of a peer, other than a duchess, is often called 'lady' rather than say 'countess' although officially it would be Countess.

When in written form it would be the more formal Countess but to her face 'my lady' or 'Lady xxx'

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

Prince Andrew received the title Duke of York upon his wedding day I believe. I don't think he's had this title since he was a baby.

Also, Viscount Linley's daughter is referred to as the Honorable Margarita Armstrong-Jones. Her brother Patrick is the Honorable Charles Armstrong-Jones and will become Viscount Linley when his father gains the title Earl of Snowdon which will be upon the present Earl of Snowdon's death. At least that's the way I understand this.

I believe Sophie didn't want the title of princess. She would have received it by marrying Edward, but asked not to.

Margarita will become The Lady Margarita Armstrong- Jones when her father becomes the Earl of Snowdon and her brother becomes the Viscount Linley. Also, Patrick isn't her brother's first name, but his middle name. His full name is Charles Patrick Inigo Armstrong- Jones.

Also, I'm a little bit confused as to what Leopold and Albert Windsor's (sons of Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor), official titles are; on some websites I've heard them been reffered to as The Honourable, whereas on others, I've heard them been called Esquires (with the abbreviation of Esq.) What are the correct titles?

 

[Archduchess Zelia]

Margarita will become The Lady Margarita Armstrong- Jones when her father becomes the Earl of Snowdon and her brother becomes the Viscount Linley. Also, Patrick isn't her brother's first name, but his middle name. His full name is Charles Patrick Inigo Armstrong- Jones.

Also, I'm a little bit confused as to what Leopold and Albert Windsor's (sons of Lord and Lady Nicholas Windsor), official titles are; on some websites I've heard them been reffered to as The Honourable, whereas on others, I've heard them been called Esquires (with the abbreviation of Esq.) What are the correct titles?

I believe that Charles Armstrong-Jones is called Patrick by the family to avoid any confusion between him and the Prince of Wales.

Leopold and Albert Windsor also confuse me, I've always thought that children of mere Lords and Ladies weren't having any official titles at all (kind of like Lady Sarah Chatto's sons), but I guess an exception was made here, or?

 

[Lumutqueen]

Don't think you can really confuse The Prince of Wales with a child. A name is a name. I never get why people name them one thing, and then call them by another.