Questions about British Styles and Titles

[Elspeth]

The Duchess of Devonshire's husband died and she became The Dowager Duchess of Devonshire. She is still a Duchess of Devonshire but she isn't THE Duchess, she's the Dowager. To confuse matters, the Duchess doesn't use the Dowager part because she says she feels too old.

Too OLD to be a dowager? Leave it to the Mitfords to be contrary!

[Elspeth]

According to the Letters Patent issued in 1960, the surname Mountbatten-Windsor is for descendants of the Queen other than the princes and princesses and female descendants who marry. In other words, it doesn't apply to her children, who are princes and princess, or to her sons' children, who are princes and princesses (except for Lady Louise), or Princess Anne's children, who take their father's name, but Prince Harry's children will be Mountbatten-Windsors, as is Lady Louise, who isn't being styled a princess.

[crisiñaki]

Thanks for the explaining Elspeth:)

[branchg]

Harry's children will only take the Mountbatten-Windsor surname if he marries and has children before The Queen dies. Otherwise, he will be a son of the sovereign and his children will be prince/princess of the UK.

[Idriel]

Originally Posted by branchg

Harry's children will only take the Mountbatten-Windsor surname if he marries and has children before The Queen dies. Otherwise, he will be a son of the sovereign and his children will be prince/princess of the UK.

I never thought about that. What would happen if he does indeed marry and have, let say, two children before the death of EII (God Save the Queen) and then have another one while his father reigns? Will the last one be a Prince of the UK and the two elder remain M-W?

[Elspeth]

When he becomes the son of the sovereign, his existing children would become Royal Highnesses. It's like Diana, who was the Hon Diana Spencer while her grandfather was alive and became Lady Diana when her father succeeded to the earldom.

[Lady Marmalade]

Okay...now I am confused.. :)

In the case of Prince Harry: say he is married with kids, regardless of whether QEII is Queen or Chuck is King...and say he so far HAS NOT been given a royal dukedom (tradition), his wife will be HRH and his children will be HRH, right?

Sorry....it can be a little muddling because of all the "what ifs".

Thank you all! :)

[crisiñaki]

British Royal ranks and surnames are so messy and complicated

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade

Okay...now I am confused.. :)

In the case of Prince Harry: say he is married with kids, regardless of whether QEII is Queen or Chuck is King...and say he so far HAS NOT been given a royal dukedom (tradition), his wife will be HRH and his children will be HRH, right?

Sorry....it can be a little muddling because of all the "what ifs".

Thank you all! :)

That's Charles, not Chuck, please.

If Harry marries and has children while the Queen is still on the throne and if he hasn't been given a dukedom, he and his wife would be Prince and Princess Henry of Wales. His children, as the great-grandchildren of the sovereign, would be Lord xxxx and Lady xxxx Mountbatten-Windsor.

If he marries and gets a dukedom and has children in the Queen's lifetime, he and his wife would be HRH the Duke and Duchess of Thingumabob, his eldest son would carry his subsidiary title but without an HRH so he'd be The Earl of Whatever, and his other children would still be Lord xxxx and Lady xxxx Mountbatten-Windsor.

Once Prince Charles is king, and if Harry hasn't been given a dukedom, he and his wife would be HRH The Prince and Princess Henry (not "of" anything, since King Charles wouldn't have the Wales title). Their children would be HRH Prince xxxx and HRH Princess xxxx.

If he gets a dukedom - say for example Duke of Cambridge (assuming the York title isn't available), he and his wife would be HRH The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. His children would be HRH Prince xxxx of Cambridge and HRH Princess xxxx of Cambridge; the eldest son doesn't use the subsidiary title if he's also an HRH.

At least, I think that's how it works. I'm sure branchg will be able to give you all the details you need.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

he and his wife would be HRH the Duke and Duchess of Thingumabob, .

Err, where exactly is thingumabob

[Elspeth]

Slightly northwest of Watchamacallit.

Surprised you even had to ask...

[Von Schlesian]

Ohh yes, the Barony of Watchamacallit, stooped so far in history as to not be remembered at all..

[Von Schlesian]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

That's Charles, not Chuck, please.

If Harry marries and has children while the Queen is still on the throne and if he hasn't been given a dukedom, he and his wife would be Prince and Princess Henry of Wales. His children, as the great-grandchildren of the sovereign, would be Lord xxxx and Lady xxxx Mountbatten-Windsor.

If he marries and gets a dukedom and has children in the Queen's lifetime, he and his wife would be HRH the Duke and Duchess of Thingumabob, his eldest son would carry his subsidiary title but without an HRH so he'd be The Earl of Whatever, and his other children would still be Lord xxxx and Lady xxxx Mountbatten-Windsor.

Once Prince Charles is king, and if Harry hasn't been given a dukedom, he and his wife would be HRH The Prince and Princess Henry (not "of" anything, since King Charles wouldn't have the Wales title). Their children would be HRH Prince xxxx and HRH Princess xxxx.

If he gets a dukedom - say for example Duke of Cambridge (assuming the York title isn't available), he and his wife would be HRH The Duke and Duchess of Cambridge. His children would be HRH Prince xxxx of Cambridge and HRH Princess xxxx of Cambridge; the eldest son doesn't use the subsidiary title if he's also an HRH.

At least, I think that's how it works. I'm sure branchg will be able to give you all the details you need.

I only have one minor alteration Elspeth: and it's with regard to a subsidiary title. Only those titles which pass directly to the monarchs' oldest son, (Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay etcetc) are grouped in such a manner. Other Dukedoms do not necessarily carry with them Marquisates, Earldoms, Vicounties and Baronies. :)

[branchg]

Harry will no doubt be created a Duke upon marriage, whether his grandmother or father is the Sovereign at the time, so his eldest son would assume whatever subsidiary earldom is created with his dukedom as a courtesy style.

The Queen will likely issue letters patent stating Harry's children will be HRH and Prince/Princess of the UK since they are the male-line grandchildren of the future King.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Lady Marmalade

Okay...now I am confused.. :)

In the case of Prince Harry: say he is married with kids, regardless of whether QEII is Queen or Chuck is King...and say he so far HAS NOT been given a royal dukedom (tradition), his wife will be HRH and his children will be HRH, right?

Sorry....it can be a little muddling because of all the "what ifs".

Thank you all! :)

If Harry marries and is not granted a dukedom, then his wife is HRH Princess Henry of Wales, if The Queen still reigns. Any children born while The Queen is still on the throne would be The Lord/Lady Mountbatten-Windsor.

If Harry marries after Charles becomes King, then his wife would be HRH The Princess Henry as the wife of a son of the sovereign. Their children would HRH and Prince/Princess of the UK as male-line grandchildren of the King.

Harry is likely to marry while The Queen is still alive (assuming her health holds out like her mother's did) and become The Duke of Cambridge. His wife would then become HRH The Duchess of Cambridge. The Queen would also issue letters patent providing their children would be HRH and Prince/Princess of the UK since they will be Charles' grandchildren in the male line.

[Elspeth]

She may not, though, with the example of Lady Louise as precedent. I mean, I think it's unlikely that she wouldn't, but with the decision about Lady Louise I don't think it's a foregone conclusion either way.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by Von Schlesian

I only have one minor alteration Elspeth: and it's with regard to a subsidiary title. Only those titles which pass directly to the monarchs' oldest son, (Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall, Duke of Rothesay etcetc) are grouped in such a manner. Other Dukedoms do not necessarily carry with them Marquisates, Earldoms, Vicounties and Baronies. :)

No, that's true, but since both Andrew and Edward received subsidiary titles, as did the Duke of Edinburgh by George VI and the Dukes of York, Kent, and Gloucester by George V, I assume it's very likely that it would happen.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

She may not, though, with the example of Lady Louise as precedent. I mean, I think it's unlikely that she wouldn't, but with the decision about Lady Louise I don't think it's a foregone conclusion either way.

I agree. It may be decided that Harry's children will simply enjoy courtesy styles, even when Charles becomes King, as part of the downsizing of the monarchy. It remains to be seen how far they will really go.

[Lady Marmalade]

Barony of Watchamacallit....so could this be a subsidiary title for Harry after he is made a Duke...

Thank you all. After reading through all your responses, I think we need to telephone the Queen, sit down over tea, and discuss this situation.

All those in favor will meet tomorrow at Buckingham Palace and then we will drive over to Sandringham...assuming she is still there. I think she needs to hear our side of this discussion.

Who's bringing snacks for the roadtrip there???? :)

[branchg]

LOL....HM needs to rectify this situation pronto!