Questions about British Styles and Titles

[AC21091968]

Michael Rhodes has written a post on Peerage News Blog that courtesy titles are derived by courtesy of the Crown. Most of the Rhodes' content are already been discussed repeatedly on The Royal Forum. Yes, Rhodes focused mostly on the Sussexes, but he also mentioned about William Cavendish, the eldest son of the (12th) Duke of Devonshire, who continued to be known as Earl of Burlington rather than the more senior Marquess of Hartington. He is professionally known as Bill Burlington when working in the art galleries.

To Harry and Meghan, a note: courtesy titles are derived by courtesy of the Crown.
https://peeragenews.blogspot.com/202...-courtesy.html

[Prinsara]

Interesting. You can only disclaim an inherited peerage, not one you were created.

[Denville]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Interesting. You can only disclaim an inherited peerage, not one you were created.

well if you are offered a new peerage the time to decline it is then and say you dont wnat it. If you inherit one, its not chosen... so its right that people have the right to give it up if you want to.

[CyrilVladisla]

King Henry IV gave his son Thomas the titles of Duke of Clarence and Earl of Aumale. Thomas died without children.
What became of the title of Earl of Aumale?

[Iluvbertie]

After the Hundred Years War the spelling of the name was changed from Aumale to Albemarle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counts...f_Aumale_(1412)

Thus we then had the Duke of Albemarle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Albemarle

And now the Earl of Albemarle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_of_Albemarle

This is the current holder of the Earldom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rufus_...l_of_Albemarle

His heir apparent is Augustus Keppel, Viscount Bury

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Prinsara

Interesting. You can only disclaim an inherited peerage, not one you were created.

Now I didn't know that. Food for thought.

[BriarRose]

I'm not sure why there would be a law for a newly created peer to disclaim their peerage. They consented to the peerage at the time of its creation. The entire point of a hereditary peerage is that it will be yours for life, then pass to your heir. It's not supposed to be in an 'opt-in, then opt-out when you change your mind' system.

On the other hand, if you inherited a peerage, you never personally consented to its creation. The opportunity to disclaim was introduced so that members of the peerage could avoid their automatic seat in the House of Lords, and the peerage was then held in abeyance until they passed away. Now that there is no automatic right to a seat in the House of Lords, disclaimers are likely rare.

Parliament can always amend or revoke a monarch's Letters Patent which created a hereditary peerage. If there is a hereditary peer who wants his peerage dissolved, they can seek relief from Parliament (and Parliament may, or may not, pass such revocation).

[Durham]

Yes that all makes sense. I hadn't read the 1963 legislation that closely so I just presumed that the ability to renounce a peerage was available to all.

Of course this question has come up now because of a very different circumstance that the original framers of the legislation would not have envisaged.

[JessRulz]

To avoid the same discussion taking place in multiple threads, please use the below thread to discuss the Duke of Edinburgh title:

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...tles-7948.html

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Durham

No she didn't. Edward VII created his British born female line grand daughters princesses but as HH not HRH. And his son George V did not agree with the decision which is why his daughters's sons were not princes.

No other British monarchs have done this.

King George V, despite disagreeing with his father's decision, created the Duke of Teck (son of Princess Mary of Cambridge) HH and made his cousins Helena Victoria and Marie Louise HH Princesses in 1917 when they renounced their German titles of Princess of Schleswig-Holstein.

Queen Victoria created her British female-line grandchildren HH.

The children of the future Queen Anne were referred to as HH and HRH.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri...e_highness.htm

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

King George V, despite disagreeing with his father's decision, created the Duke of Teck (son of Princess Mary of Cambridge) HH and made his cousins Helena Victoria and Marie Louise HH Princesses in 1917 when they renounced their German titles of Princess of Schleswig-Holstein.

Queen Victoria created her British female-line grandchildren HH.

The children of the future Queen Anne were referred to as HH and HRH.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri...e_highness.htm

But weren't those female line grand daughters' (of Victoria) HH's attached to foreign not British titles?

The Teck HH confuses me somewhat. It wasn't created because he was a female line descendent (in this case gt grandson) of a British monarch but as a sort of courtesy to his late (German) father who had also been made a HH by Victoria.

I'd always understood that George V left Helena Victoria & Marie Louise as princesses out of courtesy. There were princesses of nowhere I think in effect. They weren't princesses of Great Britain & Ireland.

And Anne's son William Duke of Gloucester was accepted by William iii as the de facto heir after his mother so that would explain his titles.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Durham

But weren't those female line grand daughters (of Victoria) HH's attached to foreign not British titles?

Yes, with the exception of Helena Victoria and Marie Louise after 1917.

Originally Posted by Durham

I'd always understood that George V left Helena Victoria & Marie Louise as princesses out of courtesy. There were princesses of nowhere I think in effect. They weren't princesses of Great Britain & Ireland.

My point was that since 1917 their title of Princess was a British and not a German one.

And my understanding is that all princesses of Great Britain and Ireland are "princesses of nowhere". Princes/ses who did not use a territorial designation derived from their father's dukedom have always been known without any territorial designation. "Of Great Britain" appears to be an "explanatory" designation rather than a component of the title.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri...Prince_of_what

For instance, the 1917 Letters Patent simply confers "the style title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess", and there is no mention of a territorial designation attached to "Prince or Princess".

Originally Posted by Durham

The Teck HH confuses me somewhat. It wasn't created because he was a female line descendent (in this case gt grandson) of a British monarch but as a sort of courtesy to his late (German) father.

Are you sure of that? Were there any cases of German princelings of no relation to the British royal family who were created HH by the British monarch?

[Durham]

I'm not sure that Marie Louise & Helena Victoria were strictly speaking British princesses from 1917. Are there LP's confirming this?

I take your point about territorial designations. It's a grey area really.

I've since updated my post to include that the first Duke of Teck was gifted the style of HH by Queen Victoria. So I presume George V felt it right to do the same for this duke's son who also of course just happened to be his brother in law.

[Tatiana Maria]

Originally Posted by Durham

I'm not sure that Marie Louise & Helena Victoria were strictly speaking British princesses from 1917. Are there LP's confirming this?

King George V published a declaration in 1917 that all descendants of Queen Victoria who were his subjects (that would include Marie Louise and Victoria Helena) relinqushed all of their "German Degrees, Styles, Dignities. Titles, Honours and Appellations". Since the Princess styles used by them after 1917 could not have been German, the only other possibility that I see is that they were British.


https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri...an_titles_1917

And do hereby further declare and announce that We for Ourselves and for and on behalf of Our descendants and all other the descendants of Our said Grandmother Queen Victoria who are subjects of these Realms, relinquish and enjoin the discontinuance of the use of the Degrees, Styles, Dignities, Titles and Honours of Dukes and Duchesses of Saxony and Princes and Princesses of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and all other German Degrees, Styles, Dignities. Titles, Honours and Appellations to Us or to them heretofore belonging or appertaining.

Originally Posted by Durham

I've since updated my post to include that the first Duke of Teck was gifted the style of HH by Queen Victoria. So I presume George V felt it right to do the same for this duke's son who also of course just happened to be his brother in law.

I think I understand what you mean. However, I don't think that the first Duke would have been gifted his British HH if he had not married into the British royal family.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria

King George V published a declaration in 1917 that all descendants of Queen Victoria who were his subjects (that would include Marie Louise and Victoria Helena) relinqushed all of their "German Degrees, Styles, Dignities. Titles, Honours and Appellations". Since the Princess styles used by them after 1917 could not have been German, the only other possibility that I see is that they were British.


https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri...an_titles_1917

And do hereby further declare and announce that We for Ourselves and for and on behalf of Our descendants and all other the descendants of Our said Grandmother Queen Victoria who are subjects of these Realms, relinquish and enjoin the discontinuance of the use of the Degrees, Styles, Dignities, Titles and Honours of Dukes and Duchesses of Saxony and Princes and Princesses of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and all other German Degrees, Styles, Dignities. Titles, Honours and Appellations to Us or to them heretofore belonging or appertaining.

I think I understand what you mean. However, I don't think that the first Duke would have been gifted his British HH if he had not married into the British royal family.

Yes absolutely. Clearly he was given (granted, gifted, whatever the right word is) HH because he'd married a British grand daughter of George iii. I'm surmising that George V felt that his heir should have the same status.

Was the house of ML & VH's father German or Danish? I'm confused.

[AC21091968]

Originally Posted by Durham

Yes absolutely. Clearly he was given (granted, gifted, whatever the right word is) HH because he'd married a British grand daughter of George iii. I'm surmising that George V felt that his heir should have the same status.

Was the house of ML & VH's father German or Danish? I'm confused.

Princess Helena Victoria and Princess Marie Louise's father is Prince Christian of Schleswig-Holstein, who was in the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg. The House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg was "was a branch of the dukes of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg of the House of Oldenburg". From wikipedia (not exactly accurate), the house was listed Denmark for Country, but then there was a war between Germany and Denmark on Schleswig-Holstein. The Parent House is House of Oldenburg. I would say the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg is both Danish and German.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_...g-Augustenburg

Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh was a member of House of Glücksburg (before 1947), shortened from House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg.

[Tatiana Maria]

Indeed, the issue of whether the duchies of Schleswig and Holstein were or ought to be Danish or German was so contentious it caused a number of constitutional crises and wars.

Since King George V took action against his Schleswig-Holstein cousins' titles I presume he considered the titles to be German, unless he was acting out of an abundance of caution.

From the Heraldica page above:

The Court Circular published to-day contains the following announcement:
The King has been pleased to direct that Royal Warrants shall be prepared declaring that Their Highnesses Princess Helena Victoria and Princess Marie Louise of Schleswig-Holstein shall henceforth be styled Their Highnesses Princess Helena Victoria and Princess Marie Louise respectively, and whereas the Princesses of the Royal Family who bear the Title of Duchess of Saxony and who are his Subjects have, at His Majesty's desire, relinquished the said Title, he has also been pleased to direct that Royal Warrants shall be prepared declaring their present styles and making such corresponding alteration in their arms as may be necessary.

(Times, Jun 20, 1917, p. 7C.)

I have not found trace of a warrant for the princesses in the London Gazette or in the Warrant Books at the National Archives; nor are any recorded in the College of Arms, mss series I.

[Somebody]

It is interesting to see how the LP of 1948 (about the style and title of children of the marriage of Elizabeth and Philip) referred to Philip as 'Prince Philip':

the children of the marriage solemnised between Our Most dearly beloved Daughter Her Royal Highness Princess Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Duchess of Edinburgh and His Royal Highness Prince Philip Duke of Edinburgh

The correspondence by 'G.A. Newsom' did not mention Philip at all but limited it to "shall be granted to any sons or daughters who may be born to Her Royal Highness The Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Edinburgh".