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  #5601  
Old 03-09-2021, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
Further to other answers, removal of the Sussex title would also render Archie's parents as being Prince and Princess Henry - "of Wales" I assume until Charles becomes king?
Yes when they would become TRH The Prince and Princess Henry ... no 'of' anything.
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  #5602  
Old 03-16-2021, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
Actually, it has been reported several times that the Queen was prepared to make Peter and Zara HRH and even Prince/ss of Great Britian and it was Princess Anne and her first husband who declined. There were reports she offered her oldest grandson an earldom on his wedding day and he refused.

Sounds like HM The Queen wanted equity amongst her children.
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Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
Again, you miss my point completely. The Queen was prepared to issue letters patent that the children of the Princess Royal had HRH and titles, just like her father did with her. Under the 1917 patent, NONE of the Queen's children would have titles when she was the Duchess of Edinburgh, Princess Elizabeth. The Princess Royal REFUSED and her mother respected her decision.

Everyone here can hold on to the 1917 letters patent with dear life, but there has been already a handful of new patents issued since then. The latest in 2013.
Can you share the reports claiming this? How would the HRH for Peter and Zara be achieved? Would their father be made a royal highness himself? And where the claims about giving Peter an earldom comparable to be Eugenie's husband being made an earl; i.e., baseless rumors? I don't think any of those are trustworthy.

What was offered and refused (at least that is the consensus among reputable sources) is an earldom for Mark Philips which would have made Peter Viscount X and Zara Lady Zara - like Margaret's children. So, it wasn't about LPs and there wasn't a reason for LPs either - Anne's situation is completely different from her mother's as Elizabeth's children included the future monarch and Anne's children didn't as she had 3 brother who most likely would have children of their own which would all be ahead of her children in the line of succession.

And if she valued equality so much, why did she agree that Louise and James are known as children of an earl instead of as royal highnesses?
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  #5603  
Old 03-16-2021, 06:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Can you share the reports claiming this? How would the HRH for Peter and Zara be achieved? Would their father be made a royal highness himself? And where the claims about giving Peter an earldom comparable to be Eugenie's husband being made an earl; i.e., baseless rumors? I don't think any of those are trustworthy.

What was likely offered is an earldom for Mark Philips which would have made Peter Viscount X and Zara Lady Zara - like Margaret's children.

And if she valued equality so much, why did she agree that Louise and James are known as children of an earl instead of as royal highnesses?
this is all nonsense. The queen would never have suggested HRH for the children of her daughter and Anne and Mark P seem to have rejected any offers of an earldom for him.
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  #5604  
Old 03-16-2021, 06:17 PM
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The only one I've ever heard is that she offered Mark Philips and Earldom and he and Anne refused.

I've never heard that Peter Philips was offered anything or Mike Tindall either for that matter. Peter and Zara have talked more than once about how grateful they are to their parents for that but no comments about turning anything down themselves.

However, even if the Queen had offered to make them HRH from the female line they were grandchildren of a monarch, not great grandchildren. And since it didn't happen and James and Louise aren't HRH I don't think anyone can argue that equity among the cousins or second cousins is at the top of anyone else's list of things to worry about. Even Edo doesn't go around using Conte even though his father does.

In the UK when you're HRH Prince/ss you're automatically "of Great Britain" though often known by another territorial designation like "Kent" "Gloucester" "York" etc.

Unlike other European houses there's no way to be "just" HRH Princess Eugenie Mountbatten-Windsor but not "of GB" unlike say Luxembourg.
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  #5605  
Old 03-16-2021, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post

However, even if the Queen had offered to make them HRH from the female line they were grandchildren of a monarch, not great grandchildren. And since it didn't happen and James and Louise aren't HRH [...]
.

There is some controversy about that. The Countess of Wessex seems to have said that James and Louise can still decide whether to use the HRH or not when they are of age.
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  #5606  
Old 03-16-2021, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
There is some controversy about that. The Countess of Wessex seems to have said that James and Louise can still decide whether to use the HRH or not when they are of age.
Yes I know. I was part of the latest discussion a couple of months ago. It does seem like they have a choice when they get to 18 but I can't imagine either of them taking it up.

However whilst I would definitely expect Sophie to know what's correct or not as it relates to her children, Harry's apparent complete lack of knowledge about how LPs, titles and other protocols in his family work kind of throws more of a question mark on to that.

Regardless they don't currently use them and it was announced before they were even born.
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  #5607  
Old 03-16-2021, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Can you share the reports claiming this? [...]
CrownPrincessJava already replied to this question in the other thread, so I will copy her reply here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
Anne was neither antiquated nor rigid in her own child-rearing. Keen for Peter and Zara to have ordinary childhoods, she broke with royal tradition by choosing not to give them HRH titles when they were born, a peerage she would have been offered from the queen. “I think it was probably easier for them, and I think most people would argue that there are downsides to having titles,” she says. “So I think that was probably the right thing to do.” (Our interview happened to take place a month after Harry and Meghan announced they would be giving up their HRH titles.)

From https://www.vanityfair.com/style/202...ime-as-a-royal

Princess Anne was reportedly offered the chance to give her children a title, but she refused (as did her husband, Captain Mark Phillips, who had been offered a title on their marriage).

From https://www.tatler.com/article/georg...d-some-are-not

There is an article I'm trying to find that after Zara's birth, the Queen offered to give Anne's children HRH Prince/ss titles
I will also copy my response:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thank you! I remember the Vanity Fair article, but its incorrect suggestion that an HRH title is a peerage does not provide a basis to infer whether it was an HRH title or merely a peerage which was offered from the queen. (For newer readers, a peerage is a title of duke, marquess, earl, viscount, or baron/lord.)

The actual quotation from the Princess Royal states only "titles" and is not precise about whether the titles were royal titles or peerage titles.

The Tatler article also does not precise whether the titles offered to Princess Anne's husband and children were HRH titles, or titles from the peerage.


At the time Princess Anne gave birth to her first child, the media coverage suggested that the titles she was offered for her husband and children were merely peerage titles, rather than HRH Prince/ss titles.

https://www.nytimes.com/1977/11/16/a...e-british.html

In a departure from tradition, the child will not be given a title. [...] No reason was given but it was speculated that the young parents, both of whom are known as freewheeling and independent, did not want peerages for themselves or their children.

BBC ON THIS DAY | 15 | 1977: Princess Anne gives birth to Master Phillips

Both the princess and her husband are said to have rejected an offer from the Queen of titles which would have enabled their children to be born into the peerage.
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  #5608  
Old 03-16-2021, 07:35 PM
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Just found this answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
Anne was neither antiquated nor rigid in her own child-rearing. Keen for Peter and Zara to have ordinary childhoods, she broke with royal tradition by choosing not to give them HRH titles when they were born, a peerage she would have been offered from the queen. “I think it was probably easier for them, and I think most people would argue that there are downsides to having titles,” she says. “So I think that was probably the right thing to do.” (Our interview happened to take place a month after Harry and Meghan announced they would be giving up their HRH titles.)

From https://www.vanityfair.com/style/202...ime-as-a-royal
Vanity Fair is mistaken I'm afraid. The quote from Anne doesn't reference HRH titles either but just talks about titles in general, so that would include an earldom and the courtesy titles for their children that would have derived from them.

Quote:
Princess Anne was reportedly offered the chance to give her children a title, but she refused (as did her husband, Captain Mark Phillips, who had been offered a title on their marriage).

From https://www.tatler.com/article/georg...d-some-are-not
Tatler presents it as if these are two separate instances but they are not. Her husband was offered a title (earldom). As titles derive from the father, that would have been the way for their children to have courtesy titles as well. Any title that Anne might or might not hold would be irrelevant in terms of her children's titles (as is evidenced by them not being titled while her mother is HRH The Princess Royal).

Quote:
There is an article I'm trying to find that after Zara's birth, the Queen offered to give Anne's children HRH Prince/ss titles
After Zara's birth? So, when Anne and Mark already had been married for almost a decade and had had a son for several years? That is a rather strange claim.

N.B. Had to pause while writing up this response, so posted it a little later than planned and therefore, some overlap can be found between this post and Tatiana Maria's (thanks TM!).
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  #5609  
Old 03-16-2021, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Tatler presents it as if these are two separate instances but they are not. Her husband was offered a title (earldom). As titles derive from the father, that would have been the way for their children to have courtesy titles as well. Any title that Anne might or might not hold would be irrelevant in terms of her children's titles (as is evidenced by them not being titled while her mother is HRH The Princess Royal).
You are right that most British courtesy titles derive from the father, however, British courtesy titles do derive from the mother when she is a peeress or the reigning Queen. Had Anne been offered and accepted an earldom, her children would have had the same courtesy titles as if their father had been an earl. However, her husband would not derive a title from her.
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  #5610  
Old 03-16-2021, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
You are right that most British courtesy titles derive from the father, however, British courtesy titles do derive from the mother when she is a peeress or the reigning Queen. Had Anne been offered and accepted an earldom, her children would have had the same courtesy titles as if their father had been an earl. However, her husband would not derive a title from her.
Thanks for that clarification. So, in short, children of PEERS do get courtesy titles; independent of which parent. Would that only apply to hereditary peers or also to life peers?
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  #5611  
Old 03-16-2021, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Thanks for that clarification. So, in short, children of PEERS do get courtesy titles; independent of which parent. Would that only apply to hereditary peers or also to life peers?
According to Debrett's, the children of life baron/esses have the same courtesy titles as the children of hereditary baron/esses. (There are no life peers who hold a rank above baron as a life peerage.)
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  #5612  
Old 03-16-2021, 08:37 PM
AC21091968's Avatar
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Thanks for that clarification. So, in short, children of PEERS do get courtesy titles; independent of which parent. Would that only apply to hereditary peers or also to life peers?
For Life Peers, yes, their children are entitled to style themselves with the prefix The Honourable (i.e. The Hon. [First Name] [Family Name]), however they cannot inherit the peerage themselves. Most Life peers are Barons and Baronesses, hence their children are The Hon. From Debrett's website, courtesy titles include Lord, Lady or The Hon.

Quote:
A courtesy title is a title such as Lord, Lady or The Hon, which is usually borne by the sons, daughters, daughters-in-law, brothers, sisters and sisters-in-law of a peer.
https://www.debretts.com/expertise/e...urtesy-titles/

P.s. Tatiana Maria beat me to it and gave a better answer
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  #5613  
Old 03-16-2021, 10:15 PM
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My impression is that for a long time, perhaps even before The Queen ascended to the throne, there hasn't been any new princes or princesses "of Great Britain". Just the ones going with the teritorial designation their father has been given. And long before, the only princes and princesses "of Great Britain" would have been the children of the sovereign and it did not pass to the daughters' children. Princess Anne's husband being offered an earldom would be traditional, but her children just being offered a HRH (without a territorial designation) - considerably less so. Am I right? So there was no reason for The Queen to offer such a thing, especially when Anne and Mark Philips had refused the earldom already.
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  #5614  
Old 03-17-2021, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
In the UK when you're HRH Prince/ss you're automatically "of Great Britain" though often known by another territorial designation like "Kent" "Gloucester" "York" etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moran View Post
My impression is that for a long time, perhaps even before The Queen ascended to the throne, there hasn't been any new princes or princesses "of Great Britain". Just the ones going with the teritorial designation their father has been given. And long before, the only princes and princesses "of Great Britain" would have been the children of the sovereign and it did not pass to the daughters' children.
Princes/ses who did not use a territorial designation derived from their father's dukedom have always been known without any territorial designation. "Of Great Britain" appears to be an "explanatory" designation rather than a component of the title.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri...Prince_of_what

For instance, the 1917 Letters Patent simply confers "the style title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess", and there is no mention of a territorial designation attached to "Prince or Princess".
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  #5615  
Old 03-17-2021, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Princes/ses who did not use a territorial designation derived from their father's dukedom have always been known without any territorial designation. "Of Great Britain" appears to be an "explanatory" designation rather than a component of the title.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri...Prince_of_what

For instance, the 1917 Letters Patent simply confers "the style title or attribute of Royal Highness with their titular dignity of Prince or Princess", and there is no mention of a territorial designation attached to "Prince or Princess".
Yes in the BRF it does seem that there is no official territorial designation "of Great Britain". It's only used when when reporting about members in the context of other countries or other royalty "Princess Beatrice of Great Britain attended the wedding of such and such in France along with Prince Amedeo of Belgium" for example.

Unlike in Sweden where "HRH ...of Sweden" is now restricted but Leonore still has "Princess". Or in Luxembourg where Grand Ducal family members can be "HRH Prince Gabriel of Nassau" but not "of Luxembourg".

I was discussing the post that said the Queen offered Anne's children "HRH and even Prince/ss of Great Britain" when the BRF don't make that distinction unlike some other Houses.
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  #5616  
Old 03-17-2021, 06:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
Unlike in Sweden where "HRH ...of Sweden" is now restricted but Leonore still has "Princess". Or in Luxembourg where Grand Ducal family members can be "HRH Prince Gabriel of Nassau" but not "of Luxembourg".
Precisely, and also in Belgium, where "HRH ... of Belgium" is now restricted but Anna Astrid still has "Princess" prefixed to her first name, and in the Netherlands, where the King's cousins are "HH Prince Maurits of Orange-Nassau, van Vollenhoven" but senior royals are "HRH Prince Constantijn of the Netherlands".

Spain always has restricted "HRH Infanta/Infante of Spain", but in the early 20th century, certain other family members were "HRH Prince/ss of the House of Bourbon" or "HRH Prince/ss of Bourbon".
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  #5617  
Old 03-17-2021, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Thanks for that clarification. So, in short, children of PEERS do get courtesy titles; independent of which parent. Would that only apply to hereditary peers or also to life peers?

Life peers are restricted in the UK to the rank of baron. I believe their children are styled "The Honourable" just like children of hereditary barons.
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  #5618  
Old 03-17-2021, 09:40 AM
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I actually didn't know that about children of Life Peers, that's interesting, thank you.
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  #5619  
Old 03-18-2021, 06:57 AM
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Children of peers whether life or hereditary, get courtesy titles. But I can't see any scenario where either Anne or Mark P would have accepted a title such as an earldom for EITHER of them.. just so that their kds could be Vct X and Lady Zara Phillips. They didnt want the kids to have titles...
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  #5620  
Old 03-20-2021, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
And according to what forum members, journalists, royal reporters, writers, bloggers and other people with insight into the modern history of the House of Windsor have all said for years that LP further restricting royal titles was going to come anyway had Harry married Princess Madeleine of Sweden, the landlady of the local pub or a biracial American actress. That Harry and his wife were intended to become core members of the working Royal family was always intended but their children never was.
Speaking of Princess Madeleine, it is interesting that Anglophone royal watchers almost unanimously cheer the "slimming down" of the rules regulating the number of family members with royal titles and/or working roles under King Carl XVI Gustaf of Sweden, King Philippe of Belgium, King Harald V of Norway, King Juan Carlos I of Spain, Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands, and Grand Duke Jean of Luxembourg. It appears that the future King Charles III of the UK is the only (future) European monarch whom royal watchers treat in a different fashion for his (rumored) plans to "slim down".
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