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  #5561  
Old 02-15-2021, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I seem to remember some ill feeling about the title when a new heir was born.. in hte 1970s..
That's interesting. That would be the present duke's son Alexander.
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  #5562  
Old 02-15-2021, 03:55 PM
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And the second dukedom in the peerage of Ireland is of Abercorn, which is Scotland!?!
Makes no sense what so ever!
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  #5563  
Old 02-15-2021, 04:10 PM
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Makes no sense what so ever!
Maybe someone got confused with their geography.
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  #5564  
Old 02-15-2021, 04:27 PM
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The first Lord Abercorn (not a Duke) was a Scottish politician in the 16th century. I thought the family were originally Scottish who settled in Ulster in the 17th century as so many did, and therefore the name referred to their ancestral lands in Scotland.
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  #5565  
Old 02-15-2021, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I've never understood why 2 of the 4 Irish Provinces are Earldoms and the other 2 are Dukedoms?

Earldom of Munster
Earldom of Ulster

Dukedom of Leinster
Dukedom of Connacht.
I think Leinster just got upgraded to a dukedom so that one of the Fitzgeralds could be made a duke, and Connaught got upgraded to a dukedom so it could be used as a title for Prince Arthur. The earldom of Ulster's been used as a subsidiary title for dukedoms so its holders don't "need" upgrading, and the earldom of Munster was awarded to William IV's illegitimate descendants ... and I think is going spare at the moment, isn't it?
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  #5566  
Old 02-15-2021, 04:37 PM
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Yes I believe the Earls of Abercorn had plantation lands in Country Tyrone in Ulster.
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  #5567  
Old 02-15-2021, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
The first Lord Abercorn (not a Duke) was a Scottish politician in the 16th century. I thought the family were originally Scottish who settled in Ulster in the 17th century as so many did, and therefore the name referred to their ancestral lands in Scotland.
Yes you're right. I did know that. It still seems peculiar not to have an Irish territorial designation. There can't be that many titles in the five peerages that don't match the country. I can only think of Burma & El Alamain. There's probably others? Maybe also military in origin?
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  #5568  
Old 02-15-2021, 04:45 PM
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Upon further reading both the Dukes of Hamilton and the Dukes of Abercorn both claim the French title of Duke of Châtellerault .

James Hamilton,Earl of Arran was granted the title by Henri II of France in 1548 but when he sided with the Scottish Protestants against Marie de Guise the French king stripped him of that title.
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  #5569  
Old 02-15-2021, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Durham View Post
There can't be that many titles in the five peerages that don't match the country. I can only think of Burma & El Alamain. There's probably others? Maybe also military in origin?
Earl Alexander of Tunis. You are correct there is the military connection. The current (2nd Earl) is 85 and only has daughters so unless the remainder allows for the title to pass along the female line or the law changes it will become extant (if that is the correct term?) within the next decade or so.
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  #5570  
Old 02-15-2021, 05:40 PM
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Earl Alexander of Tunis. You are correct there is the military connection. The current (2nd Earl) is 85 and only has daughters so unless the remainder allows for the title to pass along the female line or the law changes it will become extant (if that is the correct term?) within the next decade or so.
Of course! Thank you for reminding me. Alexander was a very highly regarded leader. Certainly a very different character to Montgomery, to put it mildly!!
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  #5571  
Old 02-17-2021, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Alison H View Post
I think Leinster just got upgraded to a dukedom so that one of the Fitzgeralds could be made a duke, and Connaught got upgraded to a dukedom so it could be used as a title for Prince Arthur. The earldom of Ulster's been used as a subsidiary title for dukedoms so its holders don't "need" upgrading, and the earldom of Munster was awarded to William IV's illegitimate descendants ... and I think is going spare at the moment, isn't it?
They can harldy use Munster as it is in the Irish republic....
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  #5572  
Old 02-17-2021, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
They can harldy use Munster as it is in the Irish republic....
So is Leinster, yet we have a Duke of Leinster. How does that work in practical terms? How is the Dukedom viewed in Ireland?
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  #5573  
Old 02-17-2021, 03:21 PM
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I think the point was that Munster wouldn't be used today as a territorial designation because no part of that province is part of the Queen's realms.

The dukedom of Leinster was created when The Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in a personal union with the Kingdom of Great Britain. So it made sense in its time.

There is an Earl of Cork (largest city of of Munster) but that's a title held by an English planter family whereas the Leinster FitzGeralds are an ancient Irish dynasty of Gaelic & Norman heritage.
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  #5574  
Old 02-17-2021, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Durham View Post
I think the point was that Munster wouldn't be used today as a territorial designation because no part of that province is part of the Queen's realms.

The dukedom of Leinster was created when The Kingdom of Ireland was an independent state in a personal union with the Kingdom of Great Britain. So it made sense in its time.

There is an Earl of Cork (largest city of of Munster) but that's a title held by an English planter family whereas the Leinster FitzGeralds are an ancient Irish dynasty of Gaelic & Norman heritage.
Yes, I take your point. The Earldom of Munster became extinct in 2000 and would have to be created again, and that is not going to happen.
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  #5575  
Old 02-18-2021, 07:23 PM
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The peerage title of Earl of Buckingham was created in 1377 for Thomas of Woodstock, the youngest son of King Edward III. The earldom passed to his son Humphrey.
Why did Charles Stopford assume the identity of the Earl of Buckingham in 1983?
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  #5576  
Old 02-22-2021, 07:35 AM
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The present Duke of Gloucester (Prince Richard) inherited his dukedom a mere few months previous to the birth of his eldest son, Alexander. Is it clear which courtesy title would have been applied to Alexander if his grandfather had been alive? Would he still have been known as Earl of Ulster, the highest courtesy title available to him (which seems reasonable to me), or would he have been known by his grandfather's third title, Lord Culloden, to acknowledge that his father Prince Richard of Gloucester would have been known as Earl of Ulster if he were not a Prince?
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  #5577  
Old 02-22-2021, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The present Duke of Gloucester (Prince Richard) inherited his dukedom a mere few months previous to the birth of his eldest son, Alexander. Is it clear which courtesy title would have been applied to Alexander if his grandfather had been alive? Would he still have been known as Earl of Ulster, the highest courtesy title available to him (which seems reasonable to me), or would he have been known by his grandfather's third title, Lord Culloden, to acknowledge that his father Prince Richard of Gloucester would have been known as Earl of Ulster if he were not a Prince?

If his grandfather had been alive, I assume Alexander would be styled Lord Alexander Windsor (as a great-grandson in male line of a British sovereign) and his father would remain HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester as a grandson of a sovereign in male line.
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  #5578  
Old 02-22-2021, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
If his grandfather had been alive, I assume Alexander would be styled Lord Alexander Windsor (as a great-grandson in male line of a British sovereign) and his father would remain HRH Prince Richard of Gloucester as a grandson of a sovereign in male line.
Wouldn't he have been entitled to assume a courtesy peerage? The Letters Patent of 1917 stipulated that "the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms", and the eldest sons of non-royal dukes of the realm enjoy the privilege of being styled as a peer, using one of the subsidiary peerages of their father.
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  #5579  
Old 02-22-2021, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by CyrilVladisla View Post
Why did Charles Stopford assume the identity of the Earl of Buckingham in 1983?
He was an imposter plain and simple it was uncovered in 2006.
https://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/sto...2173695&page=1
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  #5580  
Old 02-22-2021, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Wouldn't he have been entitled to assume a courtesy peerage? The Letters Patent of 1917 stipulated that "the grandchildren of the sons of any such Sovereign in the direct male line (save only the eldest living son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) shall have and enjoy in all occasions the style and title enjoyed by the children of Dukes of these Our Realms", and the eldest sons of non-royal dukes of the realm enjoy the privilege of being styled as a peer, using one of the subsidiary peerages of their father.
Richard wasn't the eldest son though.. he was the eldest living son. So Im not sure if he would have used the subsidiary title.. Also he had the rank of Prince.. so that's higher....
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