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  #5541  
Old 02-04-2021, 10:11 AM
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I know that on some of her daughters school documents she was "simply" Marchioness of Douro/Lady Douro, with no "Princess Antonia" but I don't know if she has/does use it socially or formally at other times.
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  #5542  
Old 02-04-2021, 10:15 AM
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I wonder if the Duchess has attended anything official such a State Banquet or Gala dinner as the style might be on the guest list?
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  #5543  
Old 02-04-2021, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
An interesting question, indeed! Having considered the Heraldica page on foreign titles (https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri...eigntitles.htm) it is my opinion that for official purposes in the UK, the wife of the current Duke of Wellington is Her Grace The Duchess of Wellington. [...] As I understand it, her husband does not hold any licence to use a foreign title in the UK, and neither does she. So their use of the foreign titles is unofficial. Prussia doesn't even exist any longer and the Prussian titles are not recognised in Germany, but people seem to like clinging to titles as long as they can.
Princess of Prussia is a legally recognized surname in Germany and I suppose she could also register it as a surname in the UK, but the families appear to be very traditional and I imagine would have expected her to change to her husband's surname on marriage.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
There is no impediment to natural born US citizens holding a foreign title of nobility or using it in a private capacity, but the title is not recognized by the United States or any state and will not appear in any US ID document.
Is there confirmation of that? The recent comments from Palace staff seem to suggest that Meghan Markle changed her name to HRH The Duchess of Sussex in her US passport, and I once read a press report mentioning the usage of an abolished royal title in a US legal document.
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  #5544  
Old 02-04-2021, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Princess of Prussia is a legally recognized surname in Germany and I suppose she could also register it as a surname in the UK, but the families appear to be very traditional and I imagine would have expected her to change to her husband's surname on marriage.



Is there confirmation of that? The recent comments from Palace staff seem to suggest that Meghan Markle changed her name to HRH The Duchess of Sussex in her US passport, and I once read a press report mentioning the usage of an abolished royal title in a US legal document.

No, I don't have official confirmation of that. You could check the official guidelines for US passports to verify if it is possible to change your name in the passport to HRH The Duchess of Sussex for example. I would be surprised if it were possible to do that, but, again, I can't categorally say it is not without doing more research.
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  #5545  
Old 02-04-2021, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I wonder if the Duchess has attended anything official such a State Banquet or Gala dinner as the style might be on the guest list?
She has attended two - the State Banquets for the King of Spain and the President of Colombia. She was with her husband and they were listed as the Duke and Duchess of Wellington.

That is the way all Dukes of Wellington have been referred to in the CC going back to the first Duke.
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  #5546  
Old 02-08-2021, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
No, I don't have official confirmation of that. You could check the official guidelines for US passports to verify if it is possible to change your name in the passport to HRH The Duchess of Sussex for example. I would be surprised if it were possible to do that, but, again, I can't categorally say it is not without doing more research.
My understanding is that this title would be noted on the "Observations Page", something like also known as HRH The Duchess of Sussex. I understand this is also the approach with actors/musicians stage names.
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  #5547  
Old 02-08-2021, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Darius1 View Post
My understanding is that this title would be noted on the "Observations Page", something like also known as HRH The Duchess of Sussex. I understand this is also the approach with actors/musicians stage names.

I don't think she could do it on the photo page as a given name and a surname are required and I doubt HRH The Duchess of Sussex would qualify for either one. Having it included in the observations page (akin to a "stage name" as you said) could be a possibility, but I would still like to see credible confirmation. Where did the information that Meghan's US passport was changed to include her UK title come from?
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  #5548  
Old 02-08-2021, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
She has attended two - the State Banquets for the King of Spain and the President of Colombia. She was with her husband and they were listed as the Duke and Duchess of Wellington.

That is the way all Dukes of Wellington have been referred to in the CC going back to the first Duke.
Thanks I had forgotten they attended the Spanish State Visit.
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  #5549  
Old 02-08-2021, 12:33 PM
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It has been custom for Princes of the United Kingdom to hold subsidiary Northern Irish titles since the foundation of Northern Ireland in 1921; Duke of Kent = Baron Downpatrick; Duke of York = Baron Killyleagh; Duke of Cambridge = Baron Carrickfergus. These titles have been in no way controversial. In the cases of Killyleagh, Carrickfergus and Kilkeel these are towns with a strong Unionist identity and history of service to the Crown.
Interesting points. It is true however that Prince Henry was created Earl of Ulster in 1928 which includes three counties in the present day Republic of Ireland. Although at the time Eire was a dominion & so technically these three counties were part of George V's realms. I wonder how controversial it was at the time. After all Ireland had only just emerged from a bitter civil war between pro & anti treaty forces.

It wouldn't be done now of course.
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  #5550  
Old 02-08-2021, 02:40 PM
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So many Irish titles once used are now extinct that were associated with the British Royal Family.

The main one's I can think of


Dukedom of Connaught/Connacht
Earldom of Athlone
Earl of Castlemaine
Earls of Ormonde (The Boleyns)
Earl of Munster
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  #5551  
Old 02-08-2021, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
So many Irish titles once used are now extinct that were associated with the British Royal Family.

The main one's I can think of


Dukedom of Connaught/Connacht
Earldom of Athlone
Earl of Castlemaine
Earls of Ormonde (The Boleyns)
Earl of Munster
Were the Boleyns at all Irish by blood? I know they originated in Norfolk but did they marry into an Irish family or have Irish ancestry?
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  #5552  
Old 02-08-2021, 02:54 PM
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Were the Boleyns at all Irish by blood? I know they originated in Norfolk but did they marry into an Irish family or have Irish ancestry?
Yes they marreid inot the Butler family of Ormonde.. and Anne boleyn was half engaged to an Irish cousin James Butler....
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  #5553  
Old 02-08-2021, 03:00 PM
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Yes they marreid inot the Butler family of Ormonde.. and Anne boleyn was half engaged to an Irish cousin James Butler....
I didn't know that thank you. The Butlers were one of the great Hiberno-Norman dynasties of course.

The line of descent from the kings of Leinster into the English & Scottish royal houses is certainly well documented.
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  #5554  
Old 02-08-2021, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Durham View Post
Were the Boleyns at all Irish by blood? I know they originated in Norfolk but did they marry into an Irish family or have Irish ancestry?
Anne's paternal grandmother was Lady Margaret Butler, daughter of the 7th Earl of Ormond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Margaret_Butler
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  #5555  
Old 02-08-2021, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Anne's paternal grandmother was Lady Margaret Butler, daughter of the 7th Earl of Ormond.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Margaret_Butler
Thank you. I've just found this:

https://www.theanneboleynfiles.com/a...lkenny-castle/

Interesting stuff.
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  #5556  
Old 02-14-2021, 10:39 AM
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English law is very loose on names compared to civil law jurisdictions. Nobody has a single official legal name that they are obligated to use on all official paperwork. This is also why the various royal surnames are so murky. There's a lot of room for people to make things up as they go along, and we're left trying to find order in the chaos.
Another example of that, perhaps, can be found in the recent court judgment concerning the Duchess of Sussex, in which the judge refers to her as "known as the actor, Meghan Markle [...] also well known as the Duchess of Sussex" and her husband as "HRH Prince Henry of Wales, the Duke of Sussex (“Prince Harry”)".

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19th and 6th Earl of Strathmore and Kinghorne (Simon Bowes-Lyon) has pleaded guilty for sexually assaulting a woman at Glamis Castle.

Earl of Strathmore admits sex attack at Glamis Castle home
A Scottish earl has pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting a woman at his ancestral home in Angus.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland...ntral-55641684
And per another article, it appears the prosecutor referred to the earl as "Bowes-Lyon" while reading the charges, rather than using "correct" styles such as "the Earl" or "Lord Strathmore" or even simply "Strathmore".

So it seems that even in legal settings, the styles set by custom are not always used.
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  #5557  
Old 02-14-2021, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
".



And per another article, it appears the prosecutor referred to the earl as "Bowes-Lyon" while reading the charges, rather than using "correct" styles such as "the Earl" or "Lord Strathmore" or even simply "Strathmore".

In this case, I think the prosecutor was correct as the defendant's legal name is indeed "Simon Bowes-Lyon".



Typically for a peer, the observation page on his UK passport would say something like: THE HOLDER IS SIMON BOWES-LYON, EARL OF STRATHMORE.



Updated guidelines for the use of titles in UK passports were just published in January 2021.
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  #5558  
Old 02-15-2021, 07:14 AM
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Interesting points. It is true however that Prince Henry was created Earl of Ulster in 1928 which includes three counties in the present day Republic of Ireland. Although at the time Eire was a dominion & so technically these three counties were part of George V's realms. I wonder how controversial it was at the time. After all Ireland had only just emerged from a bitter civil war between pro & anti treaty forces.

It wouldn't be done now of course.
I seem to remember some ill feeling about the title when a new heir was born.. in hte 1970s..
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  #5559  
Old 02-15-2021, 07:21 AM
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I've never understood why 2 of the 4 Irish Provinces are Earldoms and the other 2 are Dukedoms?

Earldom of Munster
Earldom of Ulster

Dukedom of Leinster
Dukedom of Connacht.
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  #5560  
Old 02-15-2021, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
I've never understood why 2 of the 4 Irish Provinces are Earldoms and the other 2 are Dukedoms?

Earldom of Munster
Earldom of Ulster

Dukedom of Leinster
Dukedom of Connacht.
And the second dukedom in the peerage of Ireland is of Abercorn, which is Scotland!?!
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