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  #5421  
Old 01-11-2021, 02:50 PM
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And upon further reading there are quite a few Battenberg's buried at St Mildred's Church, Whippingham on the Isle of Wight!
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  #5422  
Old 01-11-2021, 05:50 PM
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What's the difference between "Her Serene Highness" (a la Grace Kelly) and
"Her Royal Highness"?
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  #5423  
Old 01-11-2021, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenMathilde View Post
What's the difference between "Her Serene Highness" (a la Grace Kelly) and
"Her Royal Highness"?
In the olden days an individual known as Serene Highness was considered to be of much lower rank than one known as Royal Highness.

My impression is that there is no difference in practice today. The wife of the reigning prince of Monaco would take the same precedence as the wife of any other head of state.
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  #5424  
Old 01-11-2021, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
In the olden days an individual known as Serene Highness was considered to be of much lower rank than one known as Royal Highness.

My impression is that there is no difference in practice today. The wife of the reigning prince of Monaco would take the same precedence as the wife of any other head of state.
Among other royals, I had the impression that reigning princes are ranked lower than reigning kings and queens (who are ranked lower than emperors); among those of the same category it is all about tenure/the longest reign.

However, it seems that queen Elizabeth only went by 'start of reign' (independent of whether they were still reigning; and whether they were king/tsar/emperor/sultan/prince/grand duke) at the group pictures at her Diamond Jubilee.
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  #5425  
Old 01-11-2021, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I know that. I was just noting that a life baroness is normally called, e.g. "Baroness Williams", whereas a hereditary baroness or baroness in her own right is normally referred to e.g. as Lady + [Designation of the Title].
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Wasn't that decision made to distinguish them from wives of barons as some life peeresses wanted it to be clear that they had earned their peerage on their own merits?

It seems that was probably the reason.
"What we are asking for is that we should be described in terms which distinguish us more clearly from the wives of peers."

This was the request of Barbara Wootton, the first woman peer. She and others fought a long and determined battle with the House of Lords' authorities to be called woman peers and not peeresses.

As late as 1970 there was still some resistance to this. This letter from the Clerk of the Parliaments is about a meeting between Wootton and other women peers with the Lord Chancellor, and refers to the claim of the "militant women peers". These included Baroness Wootton, Baroness Swanborough, and Baroness Hylton-Foster.
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  #5426  
Old 01-11-2021, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
On the other hand, if it means Archie (who under the current LP automatically becomes an HRH the moment his grandfather becomes King) is allowed to choose whether or not to use the HRH once he turns 18, then his situation would be similar to that of his Wessex cousins. According to Sophie, Louise and James don't use the HRH titles but "they have them and can decide to use them from 18, but I think it’s highly unlikely.” (interview in The Times, June 6, 2020).
It's come to my attention that Archie's birth was recorded in the London Gazette, as were the births of the Cambridge children and for that matter the York princesses, while the births of the Wessex children were not. Which may mark the intention that the Wessex children would not become HRHs whereas Archie would.
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  #5427  
Old 01-12-2021, 12:13 AM
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According to the Countess of Wessex (who would certainly know the facts), her children ARE HRHs, they just don't use that designation. Archie is not at all, for the time being.
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  #5428  
Old 01-12-2021, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It's come to my attention that Archie's birth was recorded in the London Gazette, as were the births of the Cambridge children and for that matter the York princesses, while the births of the Wessex children were not. Which may mark the intention that the Wessex children would not become HRHs whereas Archie would.
The Earl and Countess of Wessex were adamant that their children be kept out of the limelight from birth. No ceremonies were marked in London - or anywhere. There was no commemorative items for sale, there was no crier, no boards at Buckingham palace, no fireworks, no blue and pink lights on fountains. No bells in churches and no cannons.
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  #5429  
Old 01-12-2021, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by JSH View Post
According to the Countess of Wessex (who would certainly know the facts), her children ARE HRHs, they just don't use that designation. Archie is not at all, for the time being.
These has been discussed many, many times here. There is no reason to think that The Countess of Wessex would know better than a professional person whose job it is to know this information, such person has stated in writing on authorization of Buckingham Palace that this is not the case.

Just because Sophie is styled as Her Royal Highness, this is not reason to think that she has made a particular study of the legalities of styles and titles.
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  #5430  
Old 01-12-2021, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by HighGoalHighDreams View Post
These has been discussed many, many times here. There is no reason to think that The Countess of Wessex would know better than a professional person whose job it is to know this information, such person has stated in writing on authorization of Buckingham Palace that this is not the case.

Just because Sophie is styled as Her Royal Highness, this is not reason to think that she has made a particular study of the legalities of styles and titles.
It's true we have no reason to think that she has made a study of titles and styles but I don't think we can dismiss what she says out of hand.

She's commenting on her own children, not some arcane point of protocol (which we have also seen can change). One would hope the exact details would have been discussed with her and Edward before and after they were born and the legal titles, their use of courtesy titles and what could happen in the future made clear.

She has made that comment despite wanting to keep her children as normal as possible so it wouldn't be that she desperately wants them to have it and is lying or fudging the truth. I'm not saying she's 100% right but I don't think we can completely dismiss that she had basis of some kind for saying that.

We've seen that one part of Buckingham Palace doesn't necessarily communicate with the other in regards to titles with Beatrice and Eugenie who still have "of York" on some official records and the CC and not on others. I know that is different from HRH but still.
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  #5431  
Old 01-12-2021, 10:45 AM
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Didnt the Queen (BP) issue a statement around the time The Wessexes married regarding the titles of any children and how they would not be HRH etc?

Seems like I recall a statement.


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  #5432  
Old 01-12-2021, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
Didnt the Queen (BP) issue a statement around the time The Wessexes married regarding the titles of any children and how they would not be HRH etc?

Seems like I recall a statement.


LaRae
There was a statement but the current discussion is more about whether they legally have the HRH titles but choose not to use them in favour of using the courtesy titles of children of an Earl or whether they don't legally have the right to use HRH at all.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140201...ard/40309.html

The original statement doesn't say whether the Queen issued any legal documents about this or how legally binding it is. As HighGoalHighDreams said people did write to BP to ask and were told they didn't legally have them. However Sophie says unequivocally that they do.

https://people.com/royals/queen-eliz...e-wessex-says/
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  #5433  
Old 01-12-2021, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
There was a statement but the current discussion is more about whether they legally have the HRH titles but choose not to use them in favour of using the courtesy titles of children of an Earl or whether they don't legally have the right to use HRH at all.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140201...ard/40309.html

The original statement doesn't say whether the Queen issued any legal documents about this or how legally binding it is. As HighGoalHighDreams said people did write to BP to ask and were told they didn't legally have them. However Sophie says unequivocally that they do.

https://people.com/royals/queen-eliz...e-wessex-says/
It does seem like a grey area. Ultimately though it doesnt matter as both children will be private citizens it seems. Even if Edward becomes a Duke I am guessing they will just have courtesy titles as they do already.


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  #5434  
Old 01-12-2021, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
It does seem like a grey area. Ultimately though it doesnt matter as both children will be private citizens it seems. Even if Edward becomes a Duke I am guessing they will just have courtesy titles as they do already.


LaRae

It would be quite odd if Louise and James suddenly started using the style HRH Prince/Princess [xxx] of Wessex upon coming of age, but I have always subscribed to the opinion that they are legally entitled to do it if they so choose as they are grandchildren of a British sovereign in male line and George V's 1917 LPs are still in force. In that sense, I agree with Sophie.
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  #5435  
Old 01-12-2021, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Claire View Post
The Earl and Countess of Wessex were adamant that their children be kept out of the limelight from birth. No ceremonies were marked in London - or anywhere. There was no commemorative items for sale, there was no crier, no boards at Buckingham palace, no fireworks, no blue and pink lights on fountains. No bells in churches and no cannons.
I understood that crier was a private gentleman's hobby and had nothing official at all, just folklore.
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  #5436  
Old 01-12-2021, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
It would be quite odd if Louise and James suddenly started using the style HRH Prince/Princess [xxx] of Wessex upon coming of age, but I have always subscribed to the opinion that they are legally entitled to do it if they so choose as they are grandchildren of a British sovereign in male line and George V's 1917 LPs are still in force. In that sense, I agree with Sophie.
That is my idea too. They are HRH Prince James of Wessex and HRH Princess Louise of Wessex. But just are not referred as James, Viscount Severn and Lady Louise.
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  #5437  
Old 01-12-2021, 04:13 PM
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Ah the regular topic has returned . I am afraid that this a wait and see. I am of the opinion that we are going to get an 18 year old Lady Louise before we get a King Charles , so let’s see what the year brings.
However will Louise have to sign anything to agree not the use the HRH or is it a verbal agreement with her grandmother, uncle and then cousins. Is there anything legally binding in other words? Or would she just continue the agreement made by her parents when she was born?
Second question _ would any of this be any different if Edward had accepted the dukedom? James would then be the Earl but Louise would still only be a lady but is the HRH depended on the height of the title? I don’t think so , am I correct? If he was allowed to go without a title, how would the children of a prince been tltled?
I was told that all of these problems will be cleared up with a letter patent when the next king ascends the throne. I don’t think the Queen realized how long she would live when she agreed to this arrangement.
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  #5438  
Old 01-12-2021, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I understood that crier was a private gentleman's hobby and had nothing official at all, just folklore.
Yep , that guy is a hobbyist. But I wanted to make my point. The city of London was sent a memo. No celebration, the children were not royal babies. Which is sad and even Peter and Zara got some celebration.
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  #5439  
Old 01-12-2021, 04:18 PM
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We dont know waht will happen. FWIW I think that the queen perhaps changed her mind in the intervening years and wishes that her Wessex grandchildren had the HRH title.. but they havne't made any official announcement. Possibly too Sophie would like her kids to be HRH when all the other grandchildren are..... But that flatly contradicts what was told from BP... that they were NOT HRH's..
However I would imagine that Louise and James dont want to be HRH so its not likely that we will see them "claiming" this when they are 18. If they were going to be working royals, it might be different but i doubt if they will be or that they want to be...
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  #5440  
Old 01-13-2021, 12:27 AM
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Originally Posted by HighGoalHighDreams View Post
These has been discussed many, many times here. There is no reason to think that The Countess of Wessex would know better than a professional person whose job it is to know this information, such person has stated in writing on authorization of Buckingham Palace that this is not the case.

Just because Sophie is styled as Her Royal Highness, this is not reason to think that she has made a particular study of the legalities of styles and titles.

I simply find it unbelievable that a person employed by the royals would know more many years after the fact more than a person who was intimately and personally involved in the title decision at the time it was being made. That makes no sense. It makes far more sense to me that the three people most involved know more than anyone else - the Queen and the Wessexes.
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