The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #5381  
Old 11-22-2020, 03:48 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 6,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess_Watcher View Post
So when Charles is King

Archie because HRH Prince Archie of Sussex

So Archie will one day become the Duke of Sussex and his wife will be Duchess of Sussex correct? I assume he will use Lord of Dumbarton until he gets the Sussex title.
These things are unrelated: Archie is the heir to the Duke of Sussex and therefore will one day inherit his father's title. As it currently stands Archie will become HRH Prince Archie of Sussex upon his grandfather's ascension to the throne. If his grandfather won't ascend the throne, he will not. It is also possible that Charles will decide to change the current rules and strip Archie from this title for example by announcing that for all those born after the change in rules, only the children of someone in the direct line to the throne will be HRH and prince(ss); and all others will be known based on their parent's titles. So, in that case Archie will remain entitled to use his father's subsidiary title of Lord Dumbarton - which he hasn't used so far because his parents decided otherwise.

So, unless, Archie decides differently than his parents did for him, he will not be known as Lord Dumbarton, as he currently already has that right but it is not being used.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #5382  
Old 11-22-2020, 04:37 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 6,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
Agree. She would be Queen Dowager. If she is named Queen Consort. Princess Dowager perhaps if Charles does not become King and predeceases her.
To what title would the 'Dowager' part refer? Charles isn't currently known as 'The Prince'; so theoretically she could be 'The Dowager Princess of Wales' but I don't think that would go well especially since she doesn't use the title of Princess of Wales currently, why would she start using it after Charles' (hypothetical) passing?
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #5383  
Old 11-22-2020, 04:39 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Majesty
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 6,662
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
Right now her title that she does not use is Princess of Wales, so she would be Princess Dowager if Charles does not get to be King and predeceases her. If she becomes Queen she would be Queen Dowager if Charles predeceases her.
To keep the discussion on British titles all in one place I replied to yours and a previous post in a different topic.
Reply With Quote
  #5384  
Old 11-22-2020, 04:59 PM
Majesty
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 7,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
These things are unrelated: Archie is the heir to the Duke of Sussex and therefore will one day inherit his father's title. As it currently stands Archie will become HRH Prince Archie of Sussex upon his grandfather's ascension to the throne. If his grandfather won't ascend the throne, he will not. It is also possible that Charles will decide to change the current rules and strip Archie from this title for example by announcing that for all those born after the change in rules, only the children of someone in the direct line to the throne will be HRH and prince(ss); and all others will be known based on their parent's titles. So, in that case Archie will remain entitled to use his father's subsidiary title of Lord Dumbarton - which he hasn't used so far because his parents decided otherwise.

So, unless, Archie decides differently than his parents did for him, he will not be known as Lord Dumbarton, as he currently already has that right but it is not being used.

If Archie grows up in the US and goes to school in California, I doubt he will ever use the courtesy title of Lord Dumbarton. Most likely he will be known as Archie Mountbatten-Windsor. I don't think he will be an HRH either given the current circumstances. Either the Letters Patent of 1917 will be amended when Charles is king or Archie will be simply styled as the son of a peer following James and Louise's precedent.
Reply With Quote
  #5385  
Old 11-23-2020, 01:48 AM
wbenson's Avatar
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: -, United States
Posts: 2,546
If Charles predeceases the Queen, the most likely outcome is that there wouldn't be another Duchess of Cornwall during Camilla's life, but if it did come up, there's also the Marina/Alice precedent of "Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall."
Reply With Quote
  #5386  
Old 11-23-2020, 02:29 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Posts: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbenson View Post
If Charles predeceases the Queen, the most likely outcome is that there wouldn't be another Duchess of Cornwall during Camilla's life, but if it did come up, there's also the Marina/Alice precedent of "Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall."
I doubt she'd get "Princess". In Marina's and Alice's case, they did so to not be confused with their daugther in laws, but in Camilla's case it's unlikely that she's still alive when George marries. And considering how Louise and James who's royal blooded don't use their princely title, it will be weird for her to use Princess.

I'm sorry if it's been asked before, but had Victoria, Duchess of Kent ever been known as "The Queen Mother" during Queen Victoria's reign?
Reply With Quote
  #5387  
Old 11-23-2020, 02:32 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 13,219
No Victoria was known as HRH The Duchess of Kent from the time of her marriage to her death as there was no one else to be known by that title.

She can't have been The Queen Mother as she was never a Queen.
Reply With Quote
  #5388  
Old 11-23-2020, 02:51 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Posts: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
No Victoria was known as HRH The Duchess of Kent from the time of her marriage to her death as there was no one else to be known by that title.

She can't have been The Queen Mother as she was never a Queen.
I see, thank you for your reply. So she still kept "The" in her title and didn't need to add "Dowager".

In this case (the one where Charles predeceases his mother), Camilla can remain HRH The Duchess of Cornwall, right?
Reply With Quote
  #5389  
Old 11-23-2020, 03:51 AM
Commoner
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Ipswich, Australia
Posts: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
Right now her title that she does not use is Princess of Wales, so she would be Princess Dowager if Charles does not get to be King and predeceases her. If she becomes Queen she would be Queen Dowager if Charles predeceases her.
I agree with the above poster. I could understand why Camilla refused to use the POW title which she is fully entitled to use, out of respect for the previous Princess of Wales.

However, like it or not, she should be Queen Camilla. I don't hear of any Duke, Marquess or Earl"s second wife not having the title she is entitled to, so why should Camilla not be Queen.
Reply With Quote
  #5390  
Old 11-23-2020, 04:13 AM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 13,219
Possibly but a precedent would be Princess August of Saxe-Gotha who was known as Her Royal Highness The Dowager Princess of Wales from the death of her husband until her own death. Her son didn't marry before becoming King so from 1751 until her death there was no other possible Princess of Wales but she still used the term Dowager. I would expect Camilla to follow the same precedent unless she was given a title in her own right e.g. made Princess Camilla in her own right.
Reply With Quote
  #5391  
Old 11-23-2020, 06:14 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 9,477
Its been announed that she would be Princess Consort when Charles is King. Its possible that that's what will happen
Reply With Quote
  #5392  
Old 11-23-2020, 07:29 AM
Roslyn's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tintenbar, Australia
Posts: 4,102
If it is still intended that Camilla is to be known as Princess Consort rather than Queen when Charles becomes King, I am wondering how they plan to give effect to that intention. She will automatically become Queen when her husband becomes King, so if she is not to be known as Queen, a special position, lesser than Queen, is going to have to be created for her by Charles, and that will bring with it its own set of problems. If it is only to apply to Camilla, it will be a very discriminatory thing for the new King to do to his beloved wife. Further, it will create a precedent and perhaps there will be a move for all future consorts to be known as Princess Consort or Prince Consort. I actually think that would be an excellent idea, but I doubt William would agree.
__________________
"That's it then. Cancel the kitchen scraps for lepers and orphans, no more merciful beheadings, -- and call off Christmas!!!"
Reply With Quote
  #5393  
Old 11-23-2020, 08:01 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 9,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
If it is still intended that Camilla is to be known as Princess Consort rather than Queen when Charles becomes King, I am wondering how they plan to give effect to that intention. She will automatically become Queen when her husband becomes King, so if she is not to be known as Queen, a special position, lesser than Queen, is going to have to be created for her by Charles, and that will bring with it its own set of problems. If it is only to apply to Camilla, it will be a very discriminatory thing for the new King to do to his beloved wife. Further, it will create a precedent and perhaps there will be a move for all future consorts to be known as Princess Consort or Prince Consort. I actually think that would be an excellent idea, but I doubt William would agree.
Presumably Camilla is OK with not being queen. If it had been something she had strong feelings about, she wouldn't have married Charles knowing that she might only be known as Princess Consort. And it does not bind future wives....
I think that Camilla would like to be queen but its not a big thing with her, and she's ok with being Charles' wife, doing her job as Duchess of Cornwall and then later as Princess Consort.
Reply With Quote
  #5394  
Old 11-23-2020, 08:06 AM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 830
I don't know that Camilla wants the title queen. I think Charles wants it for her.
Reply With Quote
  #5395  
Old 11-23-2020, 08:23 AM
Majesty
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 9,477
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenMathilde View Post
I don't know that Camilla wants the title queen. I think Charles wants it for her.
Im sure that like any woman she would want to share her husband's rank and titles.. but I dont think it will bother her all that much. She will be doing the same work.. and be the first lady.. But its part of hte problem of her marrying Charles. Rightly or wrongly she's seen as a second wife whose affair with Charles at least partly caused the breakdown of his marriage to Diana.. and if the penalty is that she's a litlte less high ranking than Queen, I dont think it is that big a price to pay.
Reply With Quote
  #5396  
Old 11-23-2020, 08:31 AM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: Jakarta, Indonesia
Posts: 339
So basically there are 3 possibilities for Camilla:

1. HRH The Dowager Princess of Wales
Precedent: Augusta of Saxe-Gotha (mother of George III)
Points to consider:
- Since the day she married Frederick, Augusta was known as Princess of Wales and her son married after he became king so no other Princess of Wales besides her.
- Even though she's actually the Princess of Wales, Camilla doesn't use that title for reason we all know about. So without Charles, would the public finally "let" her using it even with the additional "Dowager" added to it?
- Not to mention of the possibility that William would be made The Prince of Wales hence Catherine would be The Princess of Wales.

Marina of Greece and Denmark was princess by blood and with the death of his husband chose to be known as HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent instead of putting "Dowager" in her title. Alice Christabel Montagu Douglas Scott followed suit of asking permission to use "Princess" even though she's born as a Lady (daughter of a Duke) as to not to be confused with her daugther in law.

Which bring us to next options:
2. HRH Princess Camilla, Duchess of Cornwall
The issue with this title will be:
- The Wessex kids who are blood royal and entitled of the Princess/Prince title yet they don't use it (I doubt they will after they're 18), so public will ask why Camilla becomes Princess?
- Add to the above, this "rumour" about reducing titled royals, granting "Princess" to non-blood royal would guarantee another raised eyebrow from public.
- Since Archie would never be king's grandson from male line, he wouldn't be entitled of "Prince" title. Oh imagine the "outrage" from certain fraction when their beloved Archie is not Prince but Camilla Princess.

3. HRH The Duchess of Cornwall
Precedent: Victoria of Saxe-Coburg (mother of Queen Victoria)
- Camilla has been known as one and to date nobody has any problem with it.
- With the passing of Charles before he's king would mean William wouldn't be Duke of Cornwall. So until George marries there'd be no other Duchess of Cornwall.

I say the safest route (with less media noise) will be to keep her current title.
Reply With Quote
  #5397  
Old 11-23-2020, 09:03 AM
Duc_et_Pair's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: City, Netherlands
Posts: 11,203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roslyn View Post
If it is still intended that Camilla is to be known as Princess Consort rather than Queen when Charles becomes King, I am wondering how they plan to give effect to that intention. She will automatically become Queen when her husband becomes King, so if she is not to be known as Queen, a special position, lesser than Queen, is going to have to be created for her by Charles, and that will bring with it its own set of problems. If it is only to apply to Camilla, it will be a very discriminatory thing for the new King to do to his beloved wife. Further, it will create a precedent and perhaps there will be a move for all future consorts to be known as Princess Consort or Prince Consort. I actually think that would be an excellent idea, but I doubt William would agree.
That is an excellent idea indeed: any spouse to the King, regardless the gender, is a Prince- Consort or a Princess-Consort.

In the Netherlands it was meant to be that way. Máxima's official title is HRH Princess Máxima of the Netherlands.

But suddenly, close to the Investiture, the Cabinet changed its mind, got weak knees and thought that "social custom" stated that Máxima "could be called Queen" , not as a formal title but by courtesy.


A missed opportunity to introduce equality between male and female spouses of a monarch.
Reply With Quote
  #5398  
Old 11-23-2020, 11:26 AM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Scotland, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,129
Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenMathilde View Post
I don't know that Camilla wants the title queen. I think Charles wants it for her.
That is a fair point.
Reply With Quote
  #5399  
Old 11-23-2020, 01:03 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Manchester, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,473
I find the idea of her being "Princess Consort" really insulting to her.


Kings' wives have been known as Queens in England and Scotland for as far back as monarchy goes. To say that Camilla has to be known by a lesser title is effectively saying that she's somehow second rate. I just don't think it's very nice.
Reply With Quote
  #5400  
Old 11-23-2020, 01:25 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Woodbury, United States
Posts: 2,635
Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Im sure that like any woman she would want to share her husband's rank and titles.. but I dont think it will bother her all that much. She will be doing the same work.. and be the first lady.. But its part of hte problem of her marrying Charles. Rightly or wrongly she's seen as a second wife whose affair with Charles at least partly caused the breakdown of his marriage to Diana.. and if the penalty is that she's a litlte less high ranking than Queen, I dont think it is that big a price to pay.
Well, IMO she doesn’t deserve to be paying any penalty just because some people can’t stand her and will never forgive her. I don’t think Camilla cares enough about it, but for me that’s not the point; she should be Queen.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, consort, duke of york, kate, princess beatrice, queenmother, spouse, styles and titles, titles uk styles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Non-British Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 792 08-22-2021 12:16 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn King Willem-Alexander, Queen Máxima and family 78 08-21-2021 07:14 AM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 894 11-26-2019 11:04 PM
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess The Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Family 1897 11-29-2017 03:13 AM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 50 06-02-2017 02:28 PM




Popular Tags
american archie mountbatten-windsor asia asian birth britannia british british royal family camilla camilla's family camilla parker-bowles camilla parker bowles carolin china china chinese ming dynasty asia asian emperor royalty qing chinese clarence house commonwealth countries coronation crown jewels customs dresses duchess of sussex duke of sussex edward vii elizabeth ii family tree gemstones genetics george vi gradenigo harry and meghan hello! highgrove history hochberg house of windsor hypothetical monarchs japan japanese imperial family japan history jewellery kensington palace king edward vii king juan carlos książ castle liechtenstein lili mountbatten-windsor line of succession list of rulers meghan markle monarchists monarchy mongolia names pless politics portugal prince harry queen elizabeth ii queen victoria st edward sussex suthida thai royal family tradition unfinished portrait united states united states of america welsh


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:06 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×