Questions about British Styles and Titles

[Skydragon]

Taking into consideration that the Welsh want devolution, they may successfully object to William being made a Prince of Wales if and when the time comes. It is not an automatic title.

The Royal Family > Royal titles > Style and titles of The Prince of Wales

[Elspeth]

A person can always hope...

[PrinceOfCanada]

Originally Posted by Skydragon

Presuming they marry within the year and not in the far distant future her name will be Princess William of Wales! William may not be made The Prince of Wales at all, there is no guarantee.

*sigh*

Yes. I was talking about one permutation of the situation. And, frankly, once Charles accedes he will almost certainly create Wills PoW, at which point--yes, you guessed it--she will be HRH The Princess of Wales.

The only situation in which it can be guaranteed that she will never become PoW is if Charles predeceases EIIR. The likelihood that he will not create his own son PoW is vanishingly remote.

[Skydragon]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfCanada

Yes. I was talking about one permutation of the situation. And, frankly, once Charles accedes he will almost certainly create Wills PoW, at which point--yes, you guessed it--she will be HRH The Princess of Wales.

The only situation in which it can be guaranteed that she will never become PoW is if Charles predeceases EIIR. The likelihood that he will not create his own son PoW is vanishingly remote.

And I was replying to this post originally, which is concerned with the near future, not a dot in the future.

Originally Posted by randomlyKeira

You're welcome everyone, and I completely agree with Ghost Night, I think that these photos are really the first photos that I've seen where I could see Kate and Chelsy being the next Princesses (especially Chelsy). I think they proved themselves this day, and I think that Kate being able to be there by herself (without William) shows that she could do the kind of duties that would be required of the Princess of Wales. She needs to be albe to stand on her own two feet without William...

If and when Charles becomes King, the choice may not be his as to whether he is allowed by the Welsh government or indeed any government to hand out titles. With a vast amount of people who are not at all interested in the monarchy, as I said there can be no guarantee. The title Prince of Wales may die out when Charles becomes King.

[PrinceOfCanada]

Titles are the exclusive province of the Monarch. It certainly will be his choice. Whether it's politically expedient or not is another matter.

And I wouldn't really say 'vast' numbers. Republicanism in the UK sits around 18%, if memory served--a number that hasn't changed since 1965 or something.

And I was replying to this post originally, which is concerned with the near future, not a dot in the future.

Which really, really doesn't matter. It is overwhelmingly likely that yes, she will be HRH T PoW one day.

[wbenson]

Originally Posted by PrinceOfCanada

The only situation in which it can be guaranteed that she will never become PoW is if Charles predeceases EIIR.

She still could be then. George III was created Prince of Wales by his grandfather after his father (also the Prince of Wales) died.

Originally Posted by PrinceOfCanada

Titles are the exclusive province of the Monarch.

Unless the government of the day advises the monarch otherwise. (Though I would think it would have to come from the PM, not anyone in the Welsh government, at least not under the current arrangement; the First Minister of Wales is only qualified to offer official advice to the monarch on devolved matters.)

Originally Posted by PrinceOfCanada

And I wouldn't really say 'vast' numbers. Republicanism in the UK sits around 18%, if memory served--a number that hasn't changed since 1965 or something.

18% of the population of the UK is a pretty vast number. (Not saying others aren't more vast, though.)

[Avalon]

It is very likely that the Queen will give a title (most likely that of a Duke) to Prince William upon his marriage, so whoever marries William, probably is going to be known as X, The Duchess of Y anyway.

[BeatrixFan]

Not quite. She'll be HRH The Duchess of Y.

[Avalon]

Indeed, she would be HRH X, Duchess of Y. Thanks for correcting Beatrixfan!

[wbenson]

She wouldn't be X except in popular culture.

[Jo of Palatine]

Originally Posted by Avalon

Indeed, she would be HRH X, Duchess of Y. Thanks for correcting Beatrixfan!

She will be simply HRH The Duchess of Y. But she will have the privilege of signing her letters only with her first name.

There was a vivid discussion when the Duke of York in 1923 wanted to marry a non-royal who was "only" an earl's daughter about the questiuon if this mere earl's daughter should have the same rights as the women born Royal. They even looked intensively into the past to Lady Anne Hyde and tried to figure out if back then there were rules on how Lady Anne signed after her marriage into the Royal family but they couldn't find consistent proof that the people back then had even thought about that.

So they advised HM to follow the rule that a wife takes her rank from her husband, thus Lady Elizabthe Bowes-Lyon was considered Royal after her marriage and signed herself only "Elizabeth" and not "Elizabeth York" like a peeress who takes her first name plus the name part of her husband's/her own title.

[branchg]

Technically, she would sign her name as "Elizabeth, Duchess of York" as the wife of a Peer. Because she was marrying a son of the Sovereign, it was agreed she automatically took the rank of her husband as HRH and a princess ("HRH The Princess Albert"). She then would sign her name as "Elizabeth".

Ironically, when this question arose again with the marriage of Edward and Wallis, the Government found it convenient to overlook this conclusion reached in 1923 and state "royal rank was at the discretion of the Sovereign" and not automatic.

[Menarue]

Was Kate Middleton actually representing Prince William at the wedding? Surely she, as a friend, would be invited to the wedding and just because Prince William couldn´t be present wouldn´t be a reason to uninvite her. She and Chelsy were sitting in privileged seats so she may well have been representing him....

[PrinceOfCanada]

Originally Posted by branchg

Technically, she would sign her name as "Elizabeth, Duchess of York" as the wife of a Peer. Because she was marrying a son of the Sovereign, it was agreed she automatically took the rank of her husband as HRH and a princess ("HRH The Princess Albert"). She then would sign her name as "Elizabeth".

My understanding is that peers & peeresses are all entitled to sign with their first name only.

Ironically, when this question arose again with the marriage of Edward and Wallis, the Government found it convenient to overlook this conclusion reached in 1923 and state "royal rank was at the discretion of the Sovereign" and not automatic.

That's not really irony, it's expediency. That being said, the monarchy has always reserved to itself the right to grant or deny titles, styles, and rank.

[Warren]

Here's something interesting...
From Royal Insight, May 2005:

Can you please give us more information on the life of Princess Mary, daughter of King George V and Queen Mary?

Princess Mary was born on April 25, 1897 at York Cottage on the Sandringham Estate in Norfolk, England.

Her father was His Royal Highness Prince George, Duke of York (later King George V), the second eldest son of King Edward VII. Her mother was Her Royal Highness The Duchess of York (later Queen Mary), the only daughter of The Duke of Teck.

As a great-granddaughter of Queen Victoria, Mary was styled Her Highness Princess Mary of York from birth.

[my bolding] From her birth in 1897 to the death of Queen Victoria on 22 January 1901 Princess Mary was a "mere" HH. Did this lesser style apply only to females, or were her brothers Princes Albert and Henry also HHs for a short time, while the eldest son, Edward, was an HRH?

We are familiar with the Letters Patent of 1917 stipulating who holds the HRH, but what was the situation prior to that revision? Edward VII in 1905 raised his granddaughters Ladies Alexandra and Maud Duff to the rank of Princess with the style of Highness, and Prince Alastair of Connaught was an HH Prince of Great Britain and Ireland from his birth in 1914 until 1917. The only other cases I can recall of the use of HH (albeit after George V's Letters Patent) are the Princesses Helena Victoria and Marie Louise who relinquished their German titles of Schleswig-Holstein and Anhalt respectively in 1917 to become HH Princesses [of nothing].

[cmkrcwi]

Wasn't the son of Prince and Princess Arthur of Connaught briefly known as "HH Prince Alistair of Connaught"?

[Warren]

Yes, I've mentioned Prince Alastair in the second line of the last paragraph.

[cmkrcwi]

Warren, Oops, sorry about that. I should have read your post more closely.

[branchg]

Originally Posted by Warren

From her birth in 1897 to the death of Queen Victoria on 22 January 1901 Princess Mary was a "mere" HH. Did this lesser style apply only to females, or were her brothers Princes Albert and Henry also HHs for a short time, while the eldest son, Edward, was an HRH?

We are familiar with the Letters Patent of 1917 stipulating who holds the HRH, but what was the situation prior to that revision? Edward VII in 1905 raised his granddaughters Ladies Alexandra and Maud Duff to the rank of Princess with the style of Highness, and Prince Alastair of Connaught was an HH Prince of Great Britain and Ireland from his birth in 1914 until 1917. The only other cases I can recall of the use of HH (albeit after George V's Letters Patent) are the Princesses Helena Victoria and Marie Louise who relinquished their German titles of Schleswig-Holstein and Anhalt respectively in 1917 to become HH Princesses [of nothing].

Prior to the 1917 Letters Patent, great-grandchildren in the male-line of The Sovereign held the title and style of HH Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland. Grandchildren of The Sovereign in the male-line held the rank of HRH.

Prince Eddy was still alive when The Duke and Duchess of York's children were born, so they only held the rank of Highness as great-grandchildren of Queen Victoria. After his death, Prince George became the spare to the throne after his father, so Queen Victoria issued letters patent granting his children the rank of HRH.

Many of Victoria's female line grandchildren and great-grandchildren held titles and styles granted as members of the blood of German royal houses. After these titles were abolished by the Weimar Republic and George V issued the new letters patent, many of them continued to be granted the courtesy of being known as a Princess, even though they were not British princesses, because they had lived most of their lives in Britain.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by branchg

Prior to the 1917 Letters Patent, great-grandchildren in the male-line of The Sovereign held the title and style of HH Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland. Grandchildren of The Sovereign in the male-line held the rank of HRH.

Prince Eddy was still alive when The Duke and Duchess of York's children were born, so they only held the rank of Highness as great-grandchildren of Queen Victoria. After his death, Prince George became the spare to the throne after his father, so Queen Victoria issued letters patent granting his children the rank of HRH..

Prince Eddy wasn't alive wehen the children of the Duke and Duchess of York were born. He died in 1892 and the future Edward VIII. was born. Also Mary would have married him insteád the future George V. as she was engaged to him.