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  #5361  
Old 11-05-2020, 08:33 AM
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Thank you to Heavs and wbenson for your answers to my question on surnames.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC21091968 View Post
According to the peerage website, "her married name became Rees-Mogg", but I am not quite sure if she get to keep "Wentworth Fitzwilliam", as part of her full name (i.e. Her full name becomes Helena Anne Beatrix Wentworth Fitzwilliam Rees-Mogg).
It looks to me as if thepeerage.com website uses the phrase "her married name became [name of husband]" for each and every married woman, whether or not she truly uses her husband's name.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Without that LP only George (as eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales) would have been HRH Prince George of Cambridge; his siblings would have been Lady Charlotte Mountbatten-Windsor and Lord Louis Mountbatten-Windsor.
To add onto your answer, that would have been on the basis of the rules (Letters Patent) set in 1917 by King George V.


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
However, given that the law changed and the eldest child regardless of gender was to be the future monarch, they didn't want to run the risk that if the eldest child was a daughter, she would be a 'Lady X Mountbatten-Windsor' while a younger brother (as the eldest son) would have been a HRH Prince Y of Cambridge', so a LP was issued before George's birth.
The royal court never published the Queen's rationale for elevating the Duke of Cambridge's potential future daughters and younger sons to Prince/ss. I agree that it is probable that the optics of a younger brother "outranking" an heiress to the throne were taken into account, but for all we know new LPs might have been issued regardless of the succession law.
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  #5362  
Old 11-05-2020, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The royal court never published the Queen's rationale for elevating the Duke of Cambridge's potential future daughters and younger sons to Prince/ss. I agree that it is probable that the optics of a younger brother "outranking" an heiress to the throne were taken into account, but for all we know new LPs might have been issued regardless of the succession law.
It could have been the same rationale used when King George VI issued LPs granting the Prince/ss title to all children of the then Princess Elizabeth. Since Phillip was not yet a Prince of the UK, their children would have been styled Lord/Lady as the children of a duke. So instead of Prince Charles, their first son would have been Lord Charles, Earl of Merioneth. Not very good optics for an heir to the throne being born a mere Lord.
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  #5363  
Old 11-05-2020, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The royal court never published the Queen's rationale for elevating the Duke of Cambridge's potential future daughters and younger sons to Prince/ss. I agree that it is probable that the optics of a younger brother "outranking" an heiress to the throne were taken into account, but for all we know new LPs might have been issued regardless of the succession law.
True, while I am quite sure that was taken into account in the decision (because of that not issuing LPs would might have created a very unfortunate situation), you are of course right that without this change the queen might have decided the same.
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  #5364  
Old 11-22-2020, 09:49 AM
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I got this off my smart news app. This isn't where the article originated they copied it from another source but I can't remember the source. It's the same article however.


Could Camilla become queen if Charles dies?
https://parade.com/1123989/roisinkel...-charles-dies/


They based it on the fact that Camilla isn't William's mother so they say that she could become queen if Charles dies rather than the crown being passed to William.
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  #5365  
Old 11-22-2020, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenMathilde View Post
I got this off my smart news app. This isn't where the article originated they copied it from another source but I can't remember the source. It's the same article however.


Could Camilla become queen if Charles dies?
https://parade.com/1123989/roisinkel...-charles-dies/


They based it on the fact that Camilla isn't William's mother so they say that she could become queen if Charles dies rather than the crown being passed to William.
how could she become queen rahter than William? I dont understand. And as for the title of Queen Mother that is for the mother of the King. As Cam isn't Williams mother, there's no way she could be queen Mother.
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  #5366  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QueenMathilde View Post
I got this off my smart news app. This isn't where the article originated they copied it from another source but I can't remember the source. It's the same article however.


Could Camilla become queen if Charles dies?
https://parade.com/1123989/roisinkel...-charles-dies/


They based it on the fact that Camilla isn't William's mother so they say that she could become queen if Charles dies rather than the crown being passed to William.
Whomever came up with this line of thinking should be told that April Fool's Day has long passed.

All it takes is to simply look up the line of succession to the throne in the UK to realize that Camilla is *not* listed in any way, shape or form. The Queen dies, Charles is king. Charles dies and William is king and so forth it goes down the line of succession.
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  #5367  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:10 AM
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So many people that I wanted to quote as I agree but lost track haha .

I am yet another one that has been following all of the drama and was very anti-Camilla at the start but watched them come together (in public ish), watched the wedding with pure delight and have been so impressed in what DoC has achieved over the years.

I know that there will still be a debate over her title when our current Queen sadly dies but Camilla will be my Queen and I hope that she has many years more in order to continue her wonderful work
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  #5368  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TortillaChips View Post
So many people that I wanted to quote as I agree but lost track haha .

I am yet another one that has been following all of the drama and was very anti-Camilla at the start but watched them come together (in public ish), watched the wedding with pure delight and have been so impressed in what DoC has achieved over the years.

I know that there will still be a debate over her title when our current Queen sadly dies but Camilla will be my Queen and I hope that she has many years more in order to continue her wonderful work

I suppose she will be de jure queen, but, for practical reasons, might choose not to be called Queen or addressed as Your Majesty.
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  #5369  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:23 AM
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Du moment Charles is King, his lawfully wedded spouse at the moment, whoever that may be, is Queen.

And when the country faces the shock of the passing-away of a living embodiment of Britain after WWII, it will rally around the King leading the Nation in mourning. And sooner than everyone is aware, the new reality becomes the new normal: a new King ansld Queen, a new Duke and Duchess of Cornwall.

And the discussion "should she be Queen"? is ended, for once and for all.
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  #5370  
Old 11-22-2020, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Du moment Charles is King, his lawfully wedded spouse at the moment, whoever that may be, is Queen.

And when the country faces the shock of the passing-away of a living embodiment of Britain after WWII, it will rally around the King leading the Nation in mourning. And sooner than everyone is aware, the new reality becomes the new normal: a new King ansld Queen, a new Duke and Duchess of Cornwall.

And the discussion "should she be Queen"? is ended, for once and for all.
Absolutely correct. Many might still complain about it in private but if they can't "get over it" that is their personal problem. The rule and laws will stand beside the new king.
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  #5371  
Old 11-22-2020, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winnie View Post
Absolutely correct. Many might still complain about it in private but if they can't "get over it" that is their personal problem. The rule and laws will stand beside the new king.
If it was as simple as that, then Camilla would not have taken the title Duchess of Cornwall and there would not have been the announcement that she would be Princess Consort....
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  #5372  
Old 11-22-2020, 11:40 AM
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While I sincerely hope this won't happen, it is an interesting thought experiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Of course, in the unlikely event that Queen Elizabeth II outlives Prince Charles, Camilla will never become queen. It is also unclear what her title would be in that unlikely event. She couldn't keep being the Duchess of Cornwall while Queen Elizabeth were still alive and Charles were not, since Kate would technically be the new Duchess of Cornwall. Maybe she would be HRH The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall then.
I assume she will indeed be HRH The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall (that would be the way it is dealt with in a normal duchy but I am not completely sure that it works that way as well with titles that are linked to positions in the line of succession).

The solution to avoid confusion would be to rapidly make the new Duke of Cornwall (William) Prince of Wales, so in daily life William and Catherine can be known as The Prince and Princess of Wales while Camilla remains known as the Duchess of Cornwall (even though she would formally be the Dowager Duchess - but that has happened before in the royal family with the Dowager Duchesses in the first half of the 20th century). And of course the same procedure would need to be repeated for George once William ascends the throne while Camilla is still alive. Although in that case, there most likely won't be a new 'Duchess of Cornwall' yet; only a new Duke of Cornwall.
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  #5373  
Old 11-22-2020, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
While I sincerely hope this won't happen, it is an interesting thought experiment.

I assume she will indeed be HRH The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall (that would be the way it is dealt with in a normal duchy but I am not completely sure that it works that way as well with titles that are linked to positions in the line of succession).

The solution to avoid confusion would be to rapidly make the new Duke of Cornwall (William) Prince of Wales, so in daily life William and Catherine can be known as The Prince and Princess of Wales while Camilla remains known as the Duchess of Cornwall (even though she would formally be the Dowager Duchess - but that has happened before in the royal family with the Dowager Duchesses in the first half of the 20th century). And of course the same procedure would need to be repeated for George once William ascends the throne while Camilla is still alive. Although in that case, there most likely won't be a new 'Duchess of Cornwall' yet; only a new Duke of Cornwall.



But in that case William would not become Duke of Cornwall as he is not the son of the Monarch. Liklely he would be created Prince of Wales as was done for the future George III.
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  #5374  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
how could she become queen rahter than William? I dont understand. And as for the title of Queen Mother that is for the mother of the King. As Cam isn't Williams mother, there's no way she could be queen Mother.
Agree. She would be Queen Dowager. If she is named Queen Consort. Princess Dowager perhaps if Charles does not become King and predeceases her.
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  #5375  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandy345 View Post
Agree. She would be Queen Dowager. If she is named Queen Consort. Princess Dowager perhaps if Charles does not become King and predeceases her.
So if Charles dies now, she'd be Princess Dowager and if he lives to be King + dies she would be Queen Dowager and William would be King.
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  #5376  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But in that case William would not become Duke of Cornwall as he is not the son of the Monarch. Liklely he would be created Prince of Wales as was done for the future George III.
Yes, I think you are right. I forgot that the heir apparent is the Duke of Cornwall only when he is the monarch’s eldest living son. In that case, Camilla would still be the dowager duchess , but at least there wouldn’t be another Duchess of Cornwall to be confused with her.
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  #5377  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:14 PM
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He will make her Queen, regardless what it is the public opinion. She will never be as popular and loved as Diane. But she is the person who had always loved. It was ashamed that he wasn't understood from the beginning so Diana had not to endure her life living with him. One thing I will never understand after the disaster life of Margrethe's life without the love of her life how is possible the Queen did not get the message?
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  #5378  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
There is nothing for Charles to do to make him a prince. Archie will automatically become a prince UNLESS something is done about it.

And Archie is and will remain a commoner until he inherits his father's title of 'Duke of Sussex'. Only then will he be a peer. Whether he is known as Archie M-W, Lord Dumbarton or HRH Prince Archie of Sussex doesn't change the fact that he is a commoner.
So when Charles is King

Archie because HRH Prince Archie of Sussex

So Archie will one day become the Duke of Sussex and his wife will be Duchess of Sussex correct? I assume he will use Lord of Dumbarton until he gets the Sussex title.
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  #5379  
Old 11-22-2020, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duchess_Watcher View Post
So if Charles dies now, she'd be Princess Dowager and if he lives to be King + dies she would be Queen Dowager and William would be King.
Right now her title that she does not use is Princess of Wales, so she would be Princess Dowager if Charles does not get to be King and predeceases her. If she becomes Queen she would be Queen Dowager if Charles predeceases her.
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  #5380  
Old 11-22-2020, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But in that case William would not become Duke of Cornwall as he is not the son of the Monarch. Liklely he would be created Prince of Wales as was done for the future George III.
Thanks! Great point. So, until William is king we'd most likely have:
Queen Elizabeth (& Duke of Edinburgh)
The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall (most likely known as the Duchess of Cornwall)
The Prince and Princess of Wales (William & Catherine)
Prince George, Princess Charlotte and Prince Louis of Wales
(and all others by their current titles)

Once William becomes king, it will be:
King William and Queen Catherine
The Duke of Cornwall (or The Prince of Wales - both by tradition and to avoid confusion with the Dowager Duchess of Cornwall)
The princess Charlotte
The prince Louis
The Dowager Duchess of Cornwall
(and all others by their current titles)
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