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  #5221  
Old 08-10-2020, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
For some reason which I don't understand, the Life Peeresses in the House of Lords are called "Baroness" whereas the wives of Barons normally prefer to use "Lady" instead, although they are also "baronesses" strictly speaking.
Wasn't that decision made to distinguish them from wives of barons as some life peeresses wanted it to be clear that they had earned their peerage on their own merits?

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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
There is no actual peerage in the UK for Lord/Lady those are more informal titles for other ranks or courtesy titles for children/siblings.
Except in Scotland, where the lowest rank of the peerage is formally Lord/Lady, as in Scotland the term Baron/Baroness denotes tenure instead of a peerage.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
On your other point, the feminine form of Marquis is Marquise, both of which are actually French words. The equivalent in Spanish would be Marqués and Marquesa.
But Heavs was referring to the Tudor era, when English words were not spelled consistently.
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  #5222  
Old 08-10-2020, 02:45 PM
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Who was the first woman to be knighted and known as "Dame"? There must have been somebody before Nellie Melba, right? I feel embarrassed for not knowing.
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  #5223  
Old 08-10-2020, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Fijiro View Post
That is because, by the QEII, Prince Philip was officially created the Prince of United Kingdom and styled His Royal Highness The Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (by letter patent in 1957)
had been a great joke if this had not happened as Philip's family is much older than hers and he held a lot of titles before marrying. don't know why he had to strip iff, if inly because of his german roots (same as HM by the way) because in other countries that's not a problem f.e. Netherlands or Danmark.
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  #5224  
Old 08-10-2020, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
On your other point, the feminine form of Marquis is Marquise, both of which are actually French words. The equivalent in Spanish would be Marqués and Marquesa.

In the UK the spelling always seems to be Marquess (Male) and Marchioness (female). The slight confusion with Anne Boleyn seems to have stemmed from differences (and variation) between Tudor spelling.

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had been a great joke if this had not happened as Philip's family is much older than hers and he held a lot of titles before marrying. don't know why he had to strip iff, if inly because of his german roots (same as HM by the way) because in other countries that's not a problem f.e. Netherlands or Danmark.
I can't comment on other countries but in the UK any foreign titles of British citizens are not legally acknowledged. Philip had to give them up if he wanted to become a British citizen and if he wanted to marry the heir to the throne he had to become a British citizen to show that he had no divided loyalties. Both Elizabeth and Philip have very long family histories if you follow back their German titles and others. But that wasn't considered particularly important in 1947. Or in 1917 when the House of Windsor was created.

It wasn't really about just German titles though. Princess Marina also had to get permission to be called HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent after her son married and she was also a Princess of Greece and Denmark by birth but not a British princess by birth - which was the key. The same courtesy was then granted to her sister in law who was not a princess by birth.
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  #5225  
Old 08-10-2020, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Helen.CH View Post
had been a great joke if this had not happened as Philip's family is much older than hers and he held a lot of titles before marrying. don't know why he had to strip iff, if inly because of his german roots (same as HM by the way) because in other countries that's not a problem f.e. Netherlands or Danmark.
Philip had no titles. He was simply Philip of Greece and Denmark. Despite being the only son of his parents, his father Andrea (the fourth son) didn't have any to pass on to him.

As far as German things not being a problem elsewhere, there is the Belgian family's hundred year struggle juggling the name "Saxe-Coburg", or the protests when Beatrix determined to marry untitled Claus (twenty years after Elizabeth and Philip).
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  #5226  
Old 08-10-2020, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
In the UK the spelling always seems to be Marquess (Male) and Marchioness (female). The slight confusion with Anne Boleyn seems to have stemmed from differences (and variation) between Tudor spelling.

I can't comment on other countries but in the UK any foreign titles of British citizens are not legally acknowledged. Philip had to give them up if he wanted to become a British citizen and if he wanted to marry the heir to the throne he had to become a British citizen to show that he had no divided loyalties. Both Elizabeth and Philip have very long family histories if you follow back their German titles and others. But that wasn't considered particularly important in 1947. Or in 1917 when the House of Windsor was created.

It wasn't really about just German titles though. Princess Marina also had to get permission to be called HRH Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent after her son married and she was also a Princess of Greece and Denmark by birth but not a British princess by birth - which was the key. The same courtesy was then granted to her sister in law who was not a princess by birth.
The more correct way of saying would be that foreign titles are no longer acknowledged, as in the past, prince Albert's German titles were fully acknowledged, so it was mostly out of a sentiment surrounding German titles because of both World Wars that the British really closed themselves off. I don't think, they would have appreciated it if for example the later queen of Norway would have been requested to first give up her British titles to be allowed to marry the future Norwegian king (which of course was never considered).

I sincerely doubt if the genders were reversed that they would have required the future spouse to do the same (more likely they would have appreciated the spouse have a royal background); especially since we have such an example: Marina was not required to first give up her style and titles of HRH princess of Greece and Denmark for her to marry the Duke of Kent. So, it was rather huge and unprecedented what was asked of Philip: you have to renounce your royal status and become an ordinary citizen to be allowed to marry the future queen.

And even today: How would the British public respond if for example, prince Louis would have to give up his British titles to be acceptable to marry the future queen of Sweden?! Or princess Charlotte to marry the future king of Denmark?! In the unlikely case George's bride would be a foreign princess or archduchess (for example princess Leonore of Sweden or archduchess Anna-Astrid of Austria-Este), I don't think they would require her to renounce her royal status and take the Anglicized surname of their other parent: miss Leonore O'Neill or miss Anna-Astrid Rosboch of Cloudstone (going along with 'translating' the surname) to be palatable to the British public.
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  #5227  
Old 08-10-2020, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Philip had no titles. He was simply Philip of Greece and Denmark. Despite being the only son of his parents, his father Andrea (the fourth son) didn't have any to pass on to him.

As far as German things not being a problem elsewhere, there is the Belgian family's hundred year struggle juggling the name "Saxe-Coburg", or the protests when Beatrix determined to marry untitled Claus (twenty years after Elizabeth and Philip).
Greek and Danish titles are passed on to ALL male descendants, not just the first-born males - so whether his father was a first born or not was irrelevant (except for becoming king of Greece). So, Philip was HRH prince Philip of Greece and Denmark just like his cousin (by the third son) was HRH princess Marina of Greece and Denmark (and became his aunt-by-marriage). It's typically best not to apply the British rules to other royal or noble families as they are very different.
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  #5228  
Old 08-10-2020, 04:59 PM
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The more correct way of saying would be that foreign titles are no longer acknowledged, as in the past, prince Albert's German titles were fully acknowledged, so it was mostly out of a sentiment surrounding German titles because of both World Wars that the British really closed themselves off. I don't think, they would have appreciated it if for example the later queen of Norway would have been requested to first give up her British titles to be allowed to marry the future Norwegian king (which of course was never considered).

I sincerely doubt if the genders were reversed that they would have required the future spouse to do the same (more likely they would have appreciated the spouse have a royal background); especially since we have such an example: Marina was not required to first give up her style and titles of HRH princess of Greece and Denmark for her to marry the Duke of Kent. So, it was rather huge and unprecedented what was asked of Philip: you have to renounce your royal status and become an ordinary citizen to be allowed to marry the future queen.

And even today: How would the British public respond if for example, prince Louis would have to give up his British titles to be acceptable to marry the future queen of Sweden?! Or princess Charlotte to marry the future king of Denmark?! In the unlikely case George's bride would be a foreign princess or archduchess (for example princess Leonore of Sweden or archduchess Anna-Astrid of Austria-Este), I don't think they would require her to renounce her royal status and take the Anglicized surname of their other parent: miss Leonore O'Neill or miss Anna-Astrid Rosboch of Cloudstone (going along with 'translating' the surname) to be palatable to the British public.
Purely hypothetical or not, but when Maud of Wales married Carl of Denmark she had no titles to lose, and nobody expected he would be King of Norway. Maud was so set in her ways she refused to even change her name to something Norwegian — no fear of losing Britishness there!

And according to memory, Maud was the last British princess to marry into a foreign royal family, and that was well before both World Wars. It has been a very long time, and the political and social climate has changed multiple times over. I'm not sure there are templates to look to for any future royal marriages.
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  #5229  
Old 08-10-2020, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
Purely hypothetical or not, but when Maud of Wales married Carl of Denmark she had no titles to lose, and nobody expected he would be King of Norway. Maud was so set in her ways she refused to even change her name to something Norwegian — no fear of losing Britishness there!

And according to memory, Maud was the last British princess to marry into a foreign royal family, and that was well before both World Wars. It has been a very long time, and the political and social climate has changed multiple times over. I'm not sure there are templates to look to for any future royal marriages.
Good point, that he didn't expect to be Norway's next king. However, if the same rules would have applied; that to marry into a different royal family, she would have to first become 'miss Maud' for a year or so, I am sure nobody would have even considered going through with the marriage to prince Carl of Denmark: but would have cried "what an outlandish requirement!"

Or another example: to require the princess Victoria to renounce her style of Royal Highness and being a princess for a year in preparation for her marriage to the emperor of Germany - they would have looked for an opportunity that would not require such absurd demands. If the emperor would not accept a foreign princess for his bride; he should find a German one that would not need to relinquish her own style and title to get married...
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  #5230  
Old 08-10-2020, 05:13 PM
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Good point, that he didn't expect to be Norway's next king. However, if the same rules would have applied; that to marry into a different royal family, she would have to first become 'miss Maud' for a year or so, I am sure nobody would have even considered going through with the marriage to prince Carl of Denmark: but would have cried "what an outlandish requirement!"

Or another example: to require the princess Victoria to renounce her style of Royal Highness and being a princess for a year in preparation for her marriage to the emperor of Germany - they would have looked for an opportunity that would not require such absurd demands. If the emperor would not accept a foreign princess for his bride; he should find a German one that would not need to relinquish her own style and title to get married...
You're talking about the Victorian era though. What demand would there have been for relinquishing titles? And what sense does it make to compare it to the mid-20th century, which almost certainly wouldn't apply now?
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  #5231  
Old 08-10-2020, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Helen.CH View Post
had been a great joke if this had not happened as Philip's family is much older than hers and he held a lot of titles before marrying. don't know why he had to strip iff, if inly because of his german roots (same as HM by the way) because in other countries that's not a problem f.e. Netherlands or Danmark.
The marriage of Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands and Claus von Amsberg in 1966 attracted a great deal of objection due to his being a German. It's true that unlike Philip he was able to retain his surname, but the Dutch had the very recent precedent of Claus's father-in-law and grandfather-in-law who were allowed the same.

I believe Henrik of Denmark gave up his surname and courtesy title upon marriage. Only in 2008 were his male-line descendants made Count/Countess of Monpezat.

And as Prinsara stated, the Belgian royal family even gave up, for (then) future descendants, the use of their own German titles.


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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
I sincerely doubt if the genders were reversed that they would have required the future spouse to do the same (more likely they would have appreciated the spouse have a royal background); especially since we have such an example: Marina was not required to first give up her style and titles of HRH princess of Greece and Denmark for her to marry the Duke of Kent. So, it was rather huge and unprecedented what was asked of Philip: you have to renounce your royal status and become an ordinary citizen to be allowed to marry the future queen.
Yes, I suspect the general assumption that a father will pass on his title/surname to his children and a mother will not is a factor.


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And even today: How would the British public respond if for example, prince Louis would have to give up his British titles to be acceptable to marry the future queen of Sweden?! Or princess Charlotte to marry the future king of Denmark?! In the unlikely case George's bride would be a foreign princess or archduchess (for example princess Leonore of Sweden or archduchess Anna-Astrid of Austria-Este), I don't think they would require her to renounce her royal status and take the Anglicized surname of their other parent: miss Leonore O'Neill or miss Anna-Astrid Rosboch of Cloudstone (going along with 'translating' the surname) to be palatable to the British public.
I'm not sure they would object, as you imply. The British public is already accustomed to women giving up their surnames (and sometimes even their given names, as with Mrs. Michael Tindall) when they marry. Is giving up a title much different?

Just a side note: I understand why you style princess Anna Astrid (her name is not hyphenated) by her Austrian title as she is not officially "of Belgium". But then to be consistent you probably should not style princess Leonore as "of Sweden" either, as the royal court removed "of Sweden" from her and her siblings' biographies when their HRHs were removed, suggesting that they have lost the designation "of Sweden" following the precedent of Prince Oscar Bernadotte (see the Swedish titles thread).
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  #5232  
Old 08-10-2020, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
You're talking about the Victorian era though. What demand would there have been for relinquishing titles? And what sense does it make to compare it to the mid-20th century, which almost certainly wouldn't apply now?
None but it seems that both in the past and in the present, it would be an unlikely request. And I'm sure it felt rather unfair for Philip at the time as well.
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  #5233  
Old 08-10-2020, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The marriage of Princess Beatrix of the Netherlands and Claus von Amsberg in 1966 attracted a great deal of objection due to his being a German. It's true that unlike Philip he was able to retain his surname, but the Dutch had the very recent precedent of Claus's father-in-law and grandfather-in-law who were allowed the same.

I believe Henrik of Denmark gave up his surname and courtesy title upon marriage. Only in 2008 were his male-line descendants made Count/Countess of Monpezat.
Well, he wasn't required to give up his (disputed) title of count to be able to marry and got a 'higher title' in return. Passing on his title was indeed a different issue. I guess he pleaded for many years to get the result that his descendants became Count and Countess of Monpezat.

Interestingly, Claus' non-princess grandchildren still have his surname but the three princesses do not.

Quote:
And as Prinsara stated, the Belgian royal family even gave up, for (then) future descendants, the use of their own German titles.

Yes, I suspect the general assumption that a father will pass on his title/surname to his children and a mother will not is a factor.
I agree that could very well be part of the discussion but the Dutch managed fine with just adding their father's title but keeping the mother's title as the main title...

Giving up your own title to me is different (especially while keeping other titles) than requiring someone to give up royal style and title to only regain it at the end of the year upon marriage.

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I'm not sure they would object, as you imply. The British public is already accustomed to women giving up their surnames (and sometimes even their given names, as with Mrs. Michael Tindall) when they marry. Is giving up a title much different?
Daughters of British dukes and earl do NOT give up their style of Lady. I don't think people would be that happy if that policy would be instated.

And, it would be one thing if he married as 'HRH Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark' and from then on was known as 'HRH The Duke of Edinburgh'. That would be perfectly reasonable. However, that wasn't the case. He had to give up his titles 9 months earlier and instead of marrying as a prince of Greece and Denmark (as his cousin had been allowed to do as princess), he had to change his surname and was known only by his military title for most of that year.

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Just a side note: I understand why you style princess Anna Astrid (her name is not hyphenated) by her Austrian title as she is not officially "of Belgium". But then to be consistent you probably should not style princess Leonore as "of Sweden" either, as the royal court removed "of Sweden" from her and her siblings' biographies when their HRHs were removed, suggesting that they have lost the designation "of Sweden" following the precedent of Prince Oscar Bernadotte (see the Swedish titles thread).
I see your point. The problem is, I don't know what to use in that case... Is she now 'princess Leonore Bernadotte' or is she princess Leonore O'Neill? Or Princess Leonore O'Neill Bernadotte'? (However, that's for the Swedish title thread indeed)
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  #5234  
Old 08-10-2020, 08:30 PM
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Well, he wasn't required to give up his (disputed) title of count to be able to marry and got a 'higher title' in return. Passing on his title was indeed a different issue. I guess he pleaded for many years to get the result that his descendants became Count and Countess of Monpezat.
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And, it would be one thing if he married as 'HRH Prince Philip of Greece and Denmark' and from then on was known as 'HRH The Duke of Edinburgh'. That would be perfectly reasonable. However, that wasn't the case. He had to give up his titles 9 months earlier and instead of marrying as a prince of Greece and Denmark (as his cousin had been allowed to do as princess), he had to change his surname and was known only by his military title for most of that year.
Are you sure you're considering the incredibly specific circumstances under which Philip got married? Marina married in in 1934; it was a completely different world by 1947.

He didn't give up his title and status to get married; he gave them up to be a naturalized British citizen, which everyone has to do. But it wasn't a requirement to marry Princess Elizabeth; he didn't have to; no one from the court ordered or even suggested it. It was basically one of his uncle's (who'd had his own experiences with British distaste for "foreigners") brilliant schemes that Philip would be as appealing a consort to the xenophobic, war-exhausted British of the time if he were as British as possible. Given how Philip had already gone to school there and served in the Navy during the war and "spoke only English", I'm sure he probably felt rather British already. If Henri de Monpezat "traded in" his questionable title to be a prince, I'm not sure why trading in a mere foreign princely title to be a British royal duke and consort is meant to be a slight.

As it happens, they found out he didn't have to be naturalized after all, so in theory I think Philip could have reclaimed his Greek/Danish title if he had ever felt remorse or retained any attachment. It doesn't seem to have happened.

Wanting to pass some name to his children and descendants? That definitely happened. But the fight was about Mountbatten, not Greece and Denmark.
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  #5235  
Old 08-10-2020, 08:49 PM
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Are you sure you're considering the incredibly specific circumstances under which Philip got married? Marina married in in 1934; it was a completely different world by 1947.
That would indeed be the only reasonable explanation (even though 1934 was also 'after the BRF gave up their foreign titles) in combination with him being a prince intending to marrying the future queen (instead of a princess marrying the future king).

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He didn't give up his title and status to get married; he gave them up to be a naturalized British citizen, which everyone has to do But it wasn't a requirement to marry Princess Elizabeth; he didn't have to; no one from the court ordered or even suggested it. It was basically one of his uncle's (who'd had his own experiences with British distaste for "foreigners") brilliant schemes that Philip would be as appealing a consort to the xenophobic, war-exhausted British of the time if he were as British as possible. Given how Philip had already gone to school there and served in the Navy during the war and "spoke only English", I'm sure he probably felt rather British already.
Is it 100% certain that it was never suggested to him in any way by the court or Elizabeth's family? While his sisters indeed had married Germans, he was a Greek prince raised on British soil serving in the British army. Was he seen by the British press as 'German' - because that would at least make some sense.

Quote:
If Henri de Monpezat "traded in" his questionable title to be a prince, I'm not sure why trading in a mere foreign princely title to be a British royal duke and consort is meant to be a slight.
If that had happened on his day of marriage - without him formally giving up his title but just no longer using it, I would agree.

Quote:
As it happens, they found out he didn't have to be naturalized after all, so in theory I think Philip could have reclaimed his Greek/Danish title if he had ever felt remorse or retained any attachment. It doesn't seem to have happened.
How would such a process work? And how would that not have created lots of turmoil in the press about him not valuing his position in the BRF; it would be much worse than never giving up his title imho.

He clearly felt slighted that his children were Windsors and did not carry his family name. So, some kind of remorse of having to give up his place in the family as the head of the family who would pass on his titles and surname to his children seems rather likely. In the end, the compromise was that the non-titled are Mountbatten-Windsors. Maybe he is fine with that, maybe he figured it was the best he could get while (at least at that point - I hope he is ok with it now) secretly having wished he never gave up his titles?!

I wouldn't be surprised if the idea of giving Edward his Duke of Edinburgh title (indirectly) is one of the ways in which Philip tries to continue his line apart from the main line that is based upon Elizabeth's names and titles. So, while the Mountbatten-Windsor issue was resolved more than 50 years ago; it could still have been something that was important to him by the late 90s.
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  #5236  
Old 08-10-2020, 09:06 PM
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So when Charlotte gets older, she will become Princess Royal one day. Do we think her husband will be granted a title or her kids? Like Queen Elizabeth offered Princess Anne's kids to be Prince/Princess?
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  #5237  
Old 08-10-2020, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Prinsara View Post
He didn't give up his title and status to get married; he gave them up to be a naturalized British citizen, which everyone has to do. But it wasn't a requirement to marry Princess Elizabeth; he didn't have to; no one from the court ordered or even suggested it. It was basically one of his uncle's (who'd had his own experiences with British distaste for "foreigners") brilliant schemes that Philip would be as appealing a consort to the xenophobic, war-exhausted British of the time if he were as British as possible. Given how Philip had already gone to school there and served in the Navy during the war and "spoke only English", I'm sure he probably felt rather British already. If Henri de Monpezat "traded in" his questionable title to be a prince, I'm not sure why trading in a mere foreign princely title to be a British royal duke and consort is meant to be a slight.
That brings to mind that Philip had since his childhood been passing time with his maternal relations, the Mountbattens, and presumably learned something of the Mountbatten family background, including the events of 1917. Given that trading in a foreign princely title in order to appear more British and appeal to the British public was part of his recent family history, it may not have felt as peculiar to him as it might to others.

(Incidentally, I thought I recall someone on this board saying that Count Henrik's title was not questioned at the time of his marriage and only many years later did some royal watchers object to it after they learned that his ancestors did not go through a legal process when they assumed the title of count.)
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  #5238  
Old 08-10-2020, 09:18 PM
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That brings to mind that Philip had since his childhood been passing time with his maternal relations, the Mountbattens, and presumably learned something of the Mountbatten family background, including the events of 1917. Given that trading in a foreign princely title in order to appear more British and appeal to the British public was part of his recent family history, it may not have felt as peculiar to him as it might to others.
Not just his history. The Windsors' as well...

(But still, Somebody, I think the assimilation idea was entirely Dickie Mountbatten's. The court may have agreed with him, but I don't believe they originated it. In fact I think there were "penniless foreigner" grumbles all the way, regardless.)
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  #5239  
Old 08-10-2020, 09:18 PM
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So when Charlotte gets older, she will become Princess Royal one day. Do we think her husband will be granted a title or her kids? Like Queen Elizabeth offered Princess Anne's kids to be Prince/Princess?
Even with the Queen offering Mark Phillips a title, Anne's kids were never going to be prince/ss of the UK. They would be Lord/Lady (Mark's title) and Peter would have inherited his father's title.

I don't think we'll see that happen ever again really. Not with Charlotte or with anyone else. But that's just my opinion.
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  #5240  
Old 08-10-2020, 09:26 PM
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That brings to mind that Philip had since his childhood been passing time with his maternal relations, the Mountbattens, and presumably learned something of the Mountbatten family background, including the events of 1917. Given that trading in a foreign princely title in order to appear more British and appeal to the British public was part of his recent family history, it may not have felt as peculiar to him as it might to others.
Him being close to his maternal family might indeed have made him more willing to consider this option when it was first proposed.
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