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  #5181  
Old 08-10-2020, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
I think they knew exactly what they were doing, and I think this will work out fine for them. If she is to hold the title of HRH Princess Consort, she will not need to be created as such, it is a style that canb be accorded to her by the monarch.
Can you explain how? What would 'according to her by the monarch' be but creating her a princess in her own right - just like the queen 'accorded the title of Prince of the UK' to her husband?!

She is already an HRH (style), while 'princess' is a title - that she currently holds as the wife of the prince of Wales but which she will loose upon her husband being elevated to king (and she by default to queen).
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  #5182  
Old 08-10-2020, 10:44 AM
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When Charles becomes king, I don't think he's going to mess around with titles and styles on a whim or a fancy. He may have thought, at the time, the Princess Consort, was a good idea and that it would pacify the masses. As a king, though, making his will known isn't done every other Tuesday because he had a bright idea. It changes things.

I think the loose screw in the mechanism of creating the "Princess Consort" title for Camilla is that once that is done, like removing Diana's HRH which also removed Sarah's HRH, the Princess Consort title would apply to any future consorts of the King.

To do this exclusively for Camilla to appease Diana fans or even because that is what Camilla wants, is messing with British tradition which states that the wife of the King is the Queen. It would also single Camilla out as if she's some kind of an oddity in the mix. She isn't. IMHO she's the best choice ever to be Charles' queen.
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  #5183  
Old 08-10-2020, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
She is already an HRH (style), while 'princess' is a title - that she currently holds as the wife of the prince of Wales but which she will loose upon her husband being elevated to king (and she by default to queen).
Camilla's current titles (HRH The Duchess of Cornwall, amongst others) are derived from those of her husband. Once Charles is King, his existing titles will merge with the crown, including those of HRH The Duchess of Cornwall, which will pass to Catherine. Camilla will simply then be HM Queen Camilla.

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Can you explain how? What would 'according to her by the monarch' be but creating her a princess in her own right - just like the queen 'accorded the title of Prince of the UK' to her husband?!
The monarch is the font of all honour. Whilst legally still being HM Queen Camilla, if I am not mistaken, Charles can style Camilla as HRH Princess Consort either through the issue of Letters Patent, or merely letting his will be known.

This second approach was used in relation to the titles of future children of Edward and Sophie at the time of their wedding.
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  #5184  
Old 08-10-2020, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
When Charles becomes king, I don't think he's going to mess around with titles and styles on a whim or a fancy. He may have thought, at the time, the Princess Consort, was a good idea and that it would pacify the masses. As a king, though, making his will known isn't done every other Tuesday because he had a bright idea. It changes things.

I think the loose screw in the mechanism of creating the "Princess Consort" title for Camilla is that once that is done, like removing Diana's HRH which also removed Sarah's HRH, the Princess Consort title would apply to any future consorts of the King.

To do this exclusively for Camilla to appease Diana fans or even because that is what Camilla wants, is messing with British tradition which states that the wife of the King is the Queen. It would also single Camilla out as if she's some kind of an oddity in the mix. She isn't. IMHO she's the best choice ever to be Charles' queen.
Your point about setting a precedent for the future consorts of the monarch is an important one, and one I wholeheartedly agree with.
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  #5185  
Old 08-10-2020, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
Camilla's current titles (HRH The Duchess of Cornwall, amongst others) are derived from those of her husband. Once Charles is King, his existing titles will merge with the crown, including those of HRH The Duchess of Cornwall, which will pass to Catherine. Camilla will simply then be HM Queen Camilla.
Yes, that's indeed what I explained.

Quote:
The monarch is the font of all honour. Whilst legally still being HM Queen Camilla, if I am not mistaken, Charles can style Camilla as HRH Princess Consort either through the issue of Letters Patent, or merely letting his will be known.

This second approach was used in relation to the titles of future children of Edward and Sophie at the time of their wedding.
Using Letter Patent means that she would be created a princess in her own right, just like Philip was created a prince in his own right (although they did not give him the title of Prince Consort).

I sincerely doubt that Charles can just make his will be known to bestow a title on someone - I still think that requires a bit more than that (if not, why didn't the queen use that method for the younger Cambridge titles or to create peerages for both William and Harry?); so far, that method has only been used to withhold a title that would otherwise be used (and Sophie stated not that long ago that their children can still decide to use the style of HRH and title of prince if they would wish to do so; so, from her perspective the 'queen's will' is only about use not about rights). In any case, a very different situation compared to bestowing a title on someone - as would be needed to make Camilla a princess consort instead of queen.
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  #5186  
Old 08-10-2020, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Using Letter Patent means that she would be created a princess in her own right, just like Philip was created a prince in his own right (although they did not give him the title of Prince Consort).

I sincerely doubt that Charles can just make his will be known to bestow a title on someone - I still think that requires a bit more than that (if not, why didn't the queen use that method for the younger Cambridge titles or to create peerages for both William and Harry?); so far, that method has only been used to withhold a title that would otherwise be used (and Sophie stated not that long ago that their children can still decide to use the style of HRH and title of prince if they would wish to do so; so, from her perspective the 'queen's will' is only about use not about rights). In any case, a very different situation compared to bestowing a title on someone - as would be needed to make Camilla a princess consort instead of queen.
Please note that I have been consistent in that, as fair as I know, Camilla does not need to be created a Princess in her own right, but can merely be styled as such.
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  #5187  
Old 08-10-2020, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
Please note that I have been consistent in that, as fair as I know, Camilla does not need to be created a Princess in her own right, but can merely be styled as such.
I think that she can. Legally when Ch becomes king, she'll be queen but if Charles makes it known that she wants to be styled as HRH the Princess Consort, I think that would be OK.
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  #5188  
Old 08-10-2020, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
I think that she can. Legally when Ch becomes king, she'll be queen but if Charles makes it known that she wants to be styled as HRH the Princess Consort, I think that would be OK.
That is precisely the point I am making. As Queen, she will not need to be created as a Princess of the realm in her own right, but can merely be styled as so, if such is the will of the monarch.
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  #5189  
Old 08-10-2020, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
That is precisely the point I am making. As Queen, she will not need to be created as a Princess of the realm in her own right, but can merely be styled as so, if such is the will of the monarch.
Yes I agree. But people seem to disagree. However although Cam isn't that popular, I suspect in the end it will be simpler for her to become known as Queen...
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  #5190  
Old 08-10-2020, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Yes I agree. But people seem to disagree. However although Cam isn't that popular, I suspect in the end it will be simpler for her to become known as Queen...
At the end of the day, the King will be bound by the advice of the PM. There is a reasonable chance that the PM at the time may advise that the wife of the King is the Queen, and the matter will end there.
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  #5191  
Old 08-10-2020, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
At the end of the day, the King will be bound by the advice of the PM. There is a reasonable chance that the PM at the time may advise that the wife of the King is the Queen, and the matter will end there.
I think so.. anyway Camilla's title will still derive from her husband,, ie Albert was Prince Consort, because he was Victoria's husband.. that' was the "precedent" that was mentioned years ago, for Cam to be Princess Consort..so IMO she wotn be a Princess in her own right, like Eugenie or Anne..
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  #5192  
Old 08-10-2020, 12:50 PM
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Is "princess/prince in their own right" a term of art in the laws of the United Kingdom, or is it merely an informal description applied by royal watchers? I am not aware of any legal rights or privileges that are held by Philip but not by Camilla and Catherine, or vice versa.
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  #5193  
Old 08-10-2020, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Is "princess/prince in their own right" a term of art in the laws of the United Kingdom, or is it merely an informal description applied by royal watchers? I am not aware of any legal rights or privileges that are held by Philip but not by Camilla and Catherine, or vice versa.
Prince and Princess are just titles that signify closeness to teh monarch, as far as I know. But married in princesses have had their HRHs removed.. because their title and closeness to the monarch derives from their marriage...
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  #5194  
Old 08-10-2020, 12:59 PM
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Yes, that's indeed what I explained.



Using Letter Patent means that she would be created a princess in her own right, just like Philip was created a prince in his own right (although they did not give him the title of Prince Consort).

I sincerely doubt that Charles can just make his will be known to bestow a title on someone - I still think that requires a bit more than that (if not, why didn't the queen use that method for the younger Cambridge titles or to create peerages for both William and Harry?); so far, that method has only been used to withhold a title that would otherwise be used (and Sophie stated not that long ago that their children can still decide to use the style of HRH and title of prince if they would wish to do so; so, from her perspective the 'queen's will' is only about use not about rights). In any case, a very different situation compared to bestowing a title on someone - as would be needed to make Camilla a princess consort instead of queen.
I understand from the Wessex case that The Queen's will was sufficient to state that Louise and James would not use HRH. There were no Letter Patent to deprive them of this. I believe there was some debate as to whether a BP Comms was sufficient for The Queen's will to be known and it was agreed that yes. The legalities of these titles are incredibly interesting.
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  #5195  
Old 08-10-2020, 01:03 PM
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I think so.. anyway Camilla's title will still derive from her husband,, ie Albert was Prince Consort, because he was Victoria's husband.. that' was the "precedent" that was mentioned years ago, for Cam to be Princess Consort..so IMO she wotn be a Princess in her own right, like Eugenie or Anne..
Its also to be noted that Albert was a "prince" before Victoria was even a twinkle in his eyes. He was also Victoria's first cousin meaning they came from the same family line.
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  #5196  
Old 08-10-2020, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Its also to be noted that Albert was a "prince" before Victoria was even a twinkle in his eyes. He was also Victoria's first cousin meaning they came from the same family line.
Yes I know that. But the precedent was given that Camilla instead of being queen would be Princess Consort, just as Albert had been Prince Consort...
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  #5197  
Old 08-10-2020, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
Please note that I have been consistent in that, as fair as I know, Camilla does not need to be created a Princess in her own right, but can merely be styled as such.
Yes, I know that you have been consistent but I still don't understand how that could work If I understood I might agree with you. So far, I don't see how someone can be styled as something they are not; or in the case of women by another title than either their own title or a title that is derived from their husband's titles... However, if you have examples where people have officially been styled by something that they are not somehow entitled to, I'd love to know.
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  #5198  
Old 08-10-2020, 01:18 PM
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Yes, I know that you have been consistent but I still don't understand how that could work You cannot be styled as something you are not or for women either your own title or by a title that is not derived from your husband's titles... However, if you have examples where people have officially been styled by something that they are not somehow entitled to, I'd love to know.
She can in essence say "Im Queen but I want to be known as Princess Consort..>" just like she could say "IM princess of Wales but I want to be known as Duchess of Cornwall"
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  #5199  
Old 08-10-2020, 01:22 PM
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She could also (with Charles' approval) stand up and say "From this day forward, I have decided that I want to be officially and forevermore styled and addressed only as "Gladys". With approval by Charles, the king and with Camilla's wishes being made know, we'd have a King Charles and Gladys.

Now that tickles my funny bone to no end.
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  #5200  
Old 08-10-2020, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
She could also (with Charles' approval) stand up and say "From this day forward, I have decided that I want to be officially and forevermore styled and addressed only as "Gladys". With approval by Charles, the king and with Camilla's wishes being made know, we'd have a King Charles and Gladys.

Now that tickles my funny bone to no end.
I don't know if you picked the name Gladys randomly.. but if tis a reference to the names Charles and Cam had for each other it might not go down well...
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