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  #5141  
Old 07-19-2020, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
If a British princess of the blood was to marry a woman, would the wife be a princess to? Do the titles only refer to opposite sex relationships?
As a British princess doesn't raise her husband to princely status why would anyone assume that she would raise a wife so such a status?

A British prince marrying a man would be a different situation as a British prince does raise his wife to being a princess so maybe if Prince George did marry a man that man would become a Prince as well ... as well as a King when George becomes King.

Until the situation arises I doubt we will have a definitive answer to that question.
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  #5142  
Old 07-19-2020, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
OK I see now what you mean. Was Princess Alexandra was ever referred to as Princess Alexandra of Kent after her marriage? I don't think she was.
Informally she was for many years ... well into the 70s I have magazines still using that style for her.

The CC stopped using that style shortly after her marriage from what I can see.

The CC only referred to Eugenie as Princess Eugenie - no 'of York' when she accompanied the Queen to the Maundy Service in 2019 but at Trooping she was Princess Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brooksbank.
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  #5143  
Old 07-20-2020, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
A British prince marrying a man would be a different situation as a British prince does raise his wife to being a princess so maybe if Prince George did marry a man that man would become a Prince as well ... as well as a King when George becomes King.

Until the situation arises I doubt we will have a definitive answer to that question.
We do have a definitive answer to that question.

The inequality between men married to women, who can raise their spouses to their rank, and all other married people and civil partners, who cannot, has been raised many times in the media and in Parliament. Always, the various governments have conceded that the inequality exists. As shown clearly by the 2016 government announcement which I posted a day ago, the Cameron government not only definitively recognized the inequality but intended to take steps towards a resolution.

At the moment there are a number of titled men who are married to men, including the Duke of Edinburgh's relative Lord Ivar Mountbatten. Nobody, as far as I know, is arguing that they have raised their husbands to their rank.

The convention that a wife takes the rank and style of her husband is not derived from any written act or letters patent that could potentially accommodate new readings after the reform of the marriage laws. To the contrary, it is a part of the unwritten and age-old rules of common law, and (as has been discussed for years in relation to the Duchess of Cornwall) would require legal action to change.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri..._144_22945.htm


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
As a British princess doesn't raise her husband to princely status why would anyone assume that she would raise a wife so such a status?
One view is that it is men who have the right (to raise their wives to their rank). Another view is that it is women who have the right (to take the ranks of their husbands). I agree with your view, which has historical basis, but the other view is not unreasonable.
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  #5144  
Old 07-24-2020, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
Is Princess Beatrice now a countess?
I’m Italian and I think she is. The Republic does not recognize titles, but does NOT abolished them. You can use them if you want. Also, if your family was a comital one, it will always be, at least at a courtesy level. In Italy most nobles use their titles (newspapers, graves, lectures, ...). So, it’s fitting for Count Alessandro to use his title, and to have his son use it. I just believe Buckingham Palace does not want to use it because against the law of the UK. But in Italy even the Official Site of The Italian Republic cites noble titles when The President have audiences with titled people. There’s nothing wrong.

Also, Beatrice wouldn’t be “Countess Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi”, but “Countess Beatrice Mapelli Mozzi” or just the “Countess Mapelli Mozzi”. In Italy women do not take their husband’s name and all noble women in Italy are known by their christening name and husband’s surname.
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  #5145  
Old 07-24-2020, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
We do have a definitive answer to that question.

The inequality between men married to women, who can raise their spouses to their rank, and all other married people and civil partners, who cannot, has been raised many times in the media and in Parliament. Always, the various governments have conceded that the inequality exists. As shown clearly by the 2016 government announcement which I posted a day ago, the Cameron government not only definitively recognized the inequality but intended to take steps towards a resolution.

At the moment there are a number of titled men who are married to men, including the Duke of Edinburgh's relative Lord Ivar Mountbatten. Nobody, as far as I know, is arguing that they have raised their husbands to their rank.

The convention that a wife takes the rank and style of her husband is not derived from any written act or letters patent that could potentially accommodate new readings after the reform of the marriage laws. To the contrary, it is a part of the unwritten and age-old rules of common law, and (as has been discussed for years in relation to the Duchess of Cornwall) would require legal action to change.

https://www.heraldica.org/topics/bri..._144_22945.htm


I
thought that a few years ago, law was changed so that men who married other men, who had a knighthood were able to use some kind of title.. when a man who has a knighthood married a woman, she had the titile Lady.. but the law was then changed so that a man marrying a man who was a knight also had a title? I don't know what applies to a man who marries a peer or someone with the courtesy title Lord Ivar..
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  #5146  
Old 07-24-2020, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by JGio View Post
I’m Italian and I think she is. The Republic does not recognize titles, but does NOT abolished them. You can use them if you want. Also, if your family was a comital one, it will always be, at least at a courtesy level. In Italy most nobles use their titles (newspapers, graves, lectures, ...). So, it’s fitting for Count Alessandro to use his title, and to have his son use it. I just believe Buckingham Palace does not want to use it because against the law of the UK. But in Italy even the Official Site of The Italian Republic cites noble titles when The President have audiences with titled people. There’s nothing wrong.

Also, Beatrice wouldn’t be “Countess Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi”, but “Countess Beatrice Mapelli Mozzi” or just the “Countess Mapelli Mozzi”. In Italy women do not take their husband’s name and all noble women in Italy are known by their christening name and husband’s surname.

Countess Beatrice Mapelli Mozzi certainly has a nice ring to it, especially with the Italian pronunciation, doesn't it?
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  #5147  
Old 07-24-2020, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
thought that a few years ago, law was changed so that men who married other men, who had a knighthood were able to use some kind of title.. when a man who has a knighthood married a woman, she had the titile Lady.. but the law was then changed so that a man marrying a man who was a knight also had a title? I don't know what applies to a man who marries a peer or someone with the courtesy title Lord Ivar..
This article explains the current situation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_nobility_and_royalty

Quote:
...despite the legalization of civil partnerships for same-sex couples in 2004, spouses of ennobled civil partners have not been allowed the extension of title and privilege from their spouses' ennoblements as those accorded to married opposite-sex spouses of ennobled persons.
Several years on, there has been no change or, by all accounts, attempts to change the status quo.
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  #5148  
Old 07-24-2020, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JGio View Post
I’m Italian and I think she is. The Republic does not recognize titles, but does NOT abolished them. You can use them if you want.
"Abolished" means simply that legal recognition of the titles has been revoked. If the government were to criminalize even the social use of courtesy titles, that would be a step further than abolition. At least that is the usage I have observed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JGio View Post
In Italy most nobles use their titles (newspapers, graves, lectures, ...). So, it’s fitting for Count Alessandro to use his title, and to have his son use it. [...] But in Italy even the Official Site of The Italian Republic cites noble titles when The President have audiences with titled people. There’s nothing wrong.
Interesting, thank you. Given the circumstances, I agree there is nothing wrong with persons such as Alessandro Mapelli Mozzi using unofficial noble titles as a courtesy. All the same, I respect Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi for his choice to keep to his legal "title" of "Mr."


Quote:
Originally Posted by JGio View Post
I just believe Buckingham Palace does not want to use it because against the law of the UK.
It is not against the law of the UK to socially use an unrecognized title. The Italian titles "Don" and "Donna" were used for the parents of the Duke of Kent's daughter-in-law in the engagement announcement from the palace. If Edoardo referred to himself as Count, I am sure Buckingham Palace would use it as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JGio View Post
Also, Beatrice wouldn’t be “Countess Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi”, but “Countess Beatrice Mapelli Mozzi” or just the “Countess Mapelli Mozzi”. In Italy women do not take their husband’s name and all noble women in Italy are known by their christening name and husband’s surname.
Unfortunately, Buckingham Palace imposes the British custom of using the husband's forename, even on persons who use foreign titles. The mother of the Duke of Edinburgh is referred to as Prince Andrew of Greece, in spite of Greek princesses being known by their own forenames.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
This article explains the current situation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_nobility_and_royalty

Quote:
...despite the legalization of civil partnerships for same-sex couples in 2004, spouses of ennobled civil partners have not been allowed the extension of title and privilege from their spouses' ennoblements as those accorded to married opposite-sex spouses of ennobled persons.
I'm afraid that part of the article does not correctly explain the situation in the United Kingdom. Same-sex and opposite-sex couples are both now eligible for marriage and civil partnership; these are different legal institutions and legally a spouse is distinct from a civil partner. In addition, "extension of title and privilege from their spouses' ennoblements" is not "accorded to married opposite-sex spouses" as a category. It is solely accorded to noble men with female spouses. A noble woman is not allowed to extend her title and privileges to her husband. Thus, Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi is not a prince in spite of being married to a princess.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacknch View Post
Several years on, there has been no change or, by all accounts, attempts to change the status quo.
Several attempts have been made to change the status quo. Please see my earlier post (quoted by Denville) above, which links to one of those attempts.
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  #5149  
Old 07-24-2020, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post




I'm afraid that part of the article does not correctly explain the situation in the United Kingdom. Same-sex and opposite-sex couples are both now eligible for marriage and civil partnership; these are different legal institutions and legally a spouse is distinct from a civil partner. In addition, "extension of title and privilege from their spouses' ennoblements" is not "accorded to married opposite-sex spouses" as a category. It is solely accorded to noble men with female spouses. A noble woman is not allowed to extend her title and privileges to her husband. .
BTW, that is not unique to the UK. Among the European countries where the nobility is still legally recognized , I believe that Spain is the only one where noble women are able to extend their privileges to their husbands. And, nowadays BTW, those privileges are restricted in practice only to the use of a title and a honorary prefix like Excelentísimo Señor or Ilustrísimo Señor for example.

In Belgium and the Netherlands, even if the husband adopts his wife’s family name or if their children use their mother’s family name , they don’t acquire her nobility or title .
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  #5150  
Old 07-24-2020, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
"Abolished" means simply that legal recognition of the titles has been revoked. If the government were to criminalize even the social use of courtesy titles, that would be a step further than abolition. At least that is the usage I have observed.

It is not against the law of the UK to socially use an unrecognized title. The Italian titles "Don" and "Donna" were used for the parents of the Duke of Kent's daughter-in-law in the engagement announcement from the palace. If Edoardo referred to himself as Count, I am sure Buckingham Palace would use it as well..

Unfortunately, Buckingham Palace imposes the British custom of using the husband's forename, even on persons who use foreign titles. The mother of the Duke of Edinburgh is referred to as Prince Andrew of Greece, in spite of Greek princesses being known by their own forenames.
With abolition we mean they simply don’t exist anymore, while a missed recognition is that they exist and can be carried on but not to the eyes of the State. Title legally don’t exist. But the outcome is the same..

Of course she’s just Mrs. Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi, no comital title for her. But from the Italian heraldry point of view, she is Contessa Beatrice Mapelli Mozzi, not Contessa Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi. Italy does it differently. If she were accorded the title by BP, she would be Countess Edoardo, but it’s not the case.

I think it’s just Edoardo's choice to be Mr., he seems so down-to-earth and private, and a title may sound posh. But I thought there was a law prohibiting foreigners the usage of their foreign titles in the UK.
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  #5151  
Old 07-24-2020, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by JGio View Post
With abolition we mean they simply don’t exist anymore, while a missed recognition is that they exist and can be carried on but not to the eyes of the State. Title legally don’t exist. But the outcome is the same..

Of course she’s just Mrs. Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi, no comital title for her. But from the Italian heraldry point of view, she is Contessa Beatrice Mapelli Mozzi, not Contessa Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi. Italy does it differently. If she were accorded the title by BP, she would be Countess Edoardo, but it’s not the case.

I think it’s just Edoardo's choice to be Mr., he seems so down-to-earth and private, and a title may sound posh. But I thought there was a law prohibiting foreigners the usage of their foreign titles in the UK.
If I understand it correctly , Edoardo’s father owns two big villas / family seats in Italy . Does he visit Italy often ?
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  #5152  
Old 07-24-2020, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
"Abolished" means simply that legal recognition of the titles has been revoked. If the government were to criminalize even the social use of courtesy titles, that would be a step further than abolition. At least that is the usage I have observed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGio View Post
With abolition we mean they simply don’t exist anymore, while a missed recognition is that they exist and can be carried on but not to the eyes of the State. Title legally don’t exist. But the outcome is the same..
I think I am unclear on your definition of "don't exist anymore". In your definition, titles continue to exist after they have stopped legally existing, so, what would be necessary to make a title non-existent?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JGio View Post
Of course she’s just Mrs. Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi, no comital title for her. But from the Italian heraldry point of view, she is Contessa Beatrice Mapelli Mozzi, not Contessa Edoardo Mapelli Mozzi. Italy does it differently. If she were accorded the title by BP, she would be Countess Edoardo, but it’s not the case.
Understood. But Italians would also recognize her British royal title and coat of arms too, surely?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JGio View Post
I think it’s just Edoardo's choice to be Mr., he seems so down-to-earth and private, and a title may sound posh. But I thought there was a law prohibiting foreigners the usage of their foreign titles in the UK.
I think Lady Nicholas's parents were living in the UK when they were accorded the Don/Donna title by Buckingham Palace. Many other examples can be cited of persons socially using foreign titles (some legal, others not) while in the UK, such as members of the former royal families of Greece and Hannover. The policy (not a law) applies only to legal recognition of foreign titles.
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  #5153  
Old 07-24-2020, 04:53 PM
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[QUOTE=Tatiana Maria;2329233]
Quote:
I think I am unclear on your definition of "don't exist anymore". In your definition, titles continue to exist after they have stopped legally existing, so, what would be necessary to make a title non-existent?
It would be necessary to say they’re abolished, while they just wrote “are not recognized by the Republic”. However, practically the outcome would be the same in daily life.


Quote:
Understood. But Italians would also recognize her British royal title and coat of arms too, surely?
Yes. Italy does recognizes her titles, obviously.


Quote:
I think Lady Nicholas's parents were living in the UK when they were accorded the Don/Donna title by Buckingham Palace. Many other examples can be cited of persons socially using foreign titles (some legal, others not) while in the UK, such as members of the former royal families of Greece and Hannover. The policy (not a law) applies only to legal recognition of foreign titles.
Yes. Maybe BP changed their mind about the usage of such title.
Thank you for correcting me.
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  #5154  
Old 07-24-2020, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post

I think Lady Nicholas's parents were living in the UK when they were accorded the Don/Donna title by Buckingham Palace. Many other examples can be cited of persons socially using foreign titles (some legal, others not) while in the UK, such as members of the former royal families of Greece and Hannover. The policy (not a law) applies only to legal recognition of foreign titles.

On January 11, 1999, Queen Elizabeth II made an official declaration to the Privy Council under the Royal Marriages Act 1772 consenting to " a Contract of Matrimony between His Royal Highness Prince Ernst August Albert of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick-Luneburg and Her Serene Highness Princess Caroline Louise Marguerite of Monaco".


The boldfaced title is not recognized in the Federal Republic of Germany as far as I know. Nevertheless, the Queen used it officialy. Furthermore, according to Wikipedia, Ernst August is cited in his British passport as "His Royal Highness".
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  #5155  
Old 07-24-2020, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
On January 11, 1999, Queen Elizabeth II made an official declaration to the Privy Council under the Royal Marriages Act 1772 consenting to " a Contract of Matrimony between His Royal Highness Prince Ernst August Albert of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick-Luneburg and Her Serene Highness Princess Caroline Louise Marguerite of Monaco".


The boldfaced title is not recognized in the Federal Republic of Germany as far as I know. Nevertheless, the Queen used it officialy. Furthermore, according to Wikipedia, Ernst August is cited in his British passport as "His Royal Highness".

Interesting. The HRH is not recognized by the Federal Republic of Germany, but it apparently recognizes the remaining titles in the legal surname of the family, which, according to an interview with his son, is "Prinz von Hannover Herzog zu Braunschweig und Lüneburg Königlicher Prinz von Großbritannien und Irland" ("Prince of Hanover Duke of Brunswick and Luneburg Royal Prince of Great Britain and Ireland").

All the same, the UK government policy does not seem to discriminate between legally legitimate and illegitimate foreign titles:

Quote:
Foreign Titles

By Royal Warrant of 27 April 1932, the use in England and Wales of foreign titles of nobility was discontinued, and existing warrants licensing the use of such titles were revoked – with certain named exceptions. In Scotland, a foreign title may continue to be recognised and registered by the Lord Lyon. However, IPS maintains the right to provide a policy that is consistent throughout the UK. In consequence, at present a foreign title will not be shown on a British passport unless they hold a valid Royal warrant.

This will affect all those who may quite legitimately hold a foreign title, but which is not recognised in the UK. The personal details page of the passport will only show their forenames, family names and place and date of birth.

However, an observation indicating that ‘THE HOLDER IS ALSO KNOWN AS (foreign title)’ will be included in the passport.
So I am not sure on what basis Ernst August's titles were used officially in the UK.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JGio View Post
It would be necessary to say they’re abolished, while they just wrote “are not recognized by the Republic”. However, practically the outcome would be the same in daily life.
Thank you for clarifying! From my personal experience, "abolished" in English is commonly used to mean the same, and so that is all I mean to imply whenever I use the word.
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  #5156  
Old 07-24-2020, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Interesting. The HRH is not recognized by the Federal Republic of Germany, but it apparently recognizes the remaining titles in the legal surname of the family, which, according to an interview with his son, is "Prinz von Hannover Herzog zu Braunschweig und Lüneburg Königlicher Prinz von Großbritannien und Irland" ("Prince of Hanover Duke of Brunswick and Luneburg Royal Prince of Great Britain and Ireland").

All the same, the UK government policy does not seem to discriminate between legally legitimate and illegitimate foreign titles:



So I am not sure on what basis Ernst August's titles were used officially in the UK.
Based on the text you quoted, I suppose he must have s special royal warrant.

I wonder if the same applies to all descendants of Sophia of Hanover.
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  #5157  
Old 07-25-2020, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
On January 11, 1999, Queen Elizabeth II made an official declaration to the Privy Council under the Royal Marriages Act 1772 consenting to " a Contract of Matrimony between His Royal Highness Prince Ernst August Albert of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick-Luneburg and Her Serene Highness Princess Caroline Louise Marguerite of Monaco".


The boldfaced title is not recognized in the Federal Republic of Germany as far as I know. Nevertheless, the Queen used it officialy.
It appears the Queen customarily used foreign titles when granting permission for marriages under the terms of the Royal Marriages Act (1772), even when the parties involved were British citizens.

For example:

Marriage of His Royal Highness Prince Welf Heinrich etc. of Hanover and Princess Sophie Alexandra of Ysenburg and Budingen.
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C1360155

Marriage of His Royal Highness Prince Michael George Charles Franklin of Kent and the Baroness Marie Christine von Reibnitz, formerly Mrs Thomas Troubridge (Note: the 1 Aug 1978 date cannot be correct as the couple married on 30 June. According to an article in The Times (1 June 1978, p. 1, col. 4), the Queen granted permission for the marriage on 31 May 1978).
https://discovery.nationalarchives.g...ils/r/C1360162

His Royal Highness Prince Ernst August Georg of Brunswick-Luneburg and Her Serene Highness Countess Monika of Solms-Laubach, as well as His Royal Highness Prince Ernst August Albert of Hanover and Chantal Hochuli.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...8638/page/7956

His Royal Highness Prince Ludwig Rudolph Georg Wilhelm Philipp Friedrich Wolrad Maximiliam of Hanover and Her Serene Highness Countess Ysabelle Maria Elisabeth Thurn and Valsassina-Como and Vercelli.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/...069/page/11789

This is only speculation on my part, but perhaps the Queen repeated whatever names/titles the applicants provided when requesting permission.

Quote:

Furthermore, according to Wikipedia, Ernst August is cited in his British passport as "His Royal Highness".
Unfortunately, Wikipedia does not back the statement with a source.

The Wikipedia entry for Ernst August's father Ernst August (1914-1987) states: "Nonetheless, a problem arose as foreign royal titles can't be entered into a British passport. Therefore, the titles Prince of Hanover, Duke of Brunswick and Lüneburg could not be mentioned there, nor could the British titles due to the Titles Deprivation Act of 1917. The name which was finally entered into his British documents, was thus Ernest Augustus Guelph, with the addition of His Royal Highness. Guelph is thus also the British last name of his siblings and children, all styled Royal Highnesses in the United Kingdom."

But the source it cites only refers to the German passport of his grandson Ernst August (born 1983): https://www.haz.de/Hannover/Aus-der-...-HAZ-Interview
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  #5158  
Old 07-29-2020, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Do we know for a fact that she is "obviously happy to be styled in the traditional way"? She has expressed happiness in interviews with being untitled, but I haven't found an interview in which she shares her feelings about being styled "Mrs. Michael Tindall".



But if she followed the custom of taking the husband's style, she would be styled "HRH Mrs. Jack Brooksbank" (as in the old usage of the grand-ducal family of Luxembourg) rather than "HRH Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank". My point was that the combination of "Princess" and "Mrs." by which Princess Alexandra was designated before her husband was knighted was used for her only, prior to the marriage of Princess Eugenie.
I remember when Princess Anne was married to Mark Phillips she was known as HRH Princess Anne Mrs Mark Phillips. I am not sure about Princess Margaret, but I think her husband did not get his title until PM was pregnant with her first baby. Anyway if you want more information look up the relevant Princess on Wikipedia and look at titles and styles.
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  #5159  
Old 07-29-2020, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
See here for an update regarding the title of Princess Eugenie of York: Jack Brooksbank: Is there a Title in his future?




Thanks.

In 2000, a woman who requested to use her own given name instead of her husband's given name was refused permission by the Queen's representative. Reading this, I believe that Queen Elizabeth would use "Mrs. Michael" and "Mrs. Jack" whether or not her granddaughters objected.

A competing horse has more independence | World news | The Guardian




The 1917 LPs relate to legal titles, not styles; otherwise Maud, the queen of Norway, would have had to be styled HRH Princess Maud when she was in the UK.



And that decision was only made with the marriage of Princess Alexandra, she being the first British princess to marry a husband without a title and still remain styled as a princess.
No, it was definitely Princess Margaret. She married Mr Antony Armstrong Jones. He did not get his Earldom until just before the birth of their first child.
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  #5160  
Old 07-29-2020, 07:16 AM
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While Princess Margaret was the first princess to marry a man without the title her cousin Princess Alexandra was the first, as stated by Tatiana Maria above, to use the combination of Princess & Mrs. Princess Margaret was, as evident in for instance in The London Gazette of November 1 & November 25 1960, styled as The Princess Margaret before her husband received his title.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/42183/page/1

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/42202/page/1
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