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  #5101  
Old 07-17-2020, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fijiro View Post
I though that Italian nobility does not exist anymore.
The present republican constitution of Italy, which dates to 1948, abolished the nobility, and technically it no longer exists. However, private nobility organizations continue to function, and many members of the deposed families (including Alessandro Mapelli Mozzi) continue to use the titles socially.


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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Foreign noble titles and the titles of deposed royals are two different matters in my opinion. The British law (is it a law?) concerning the approved use of foreign titles carried by British citizens aside there's a long standing tradition among the courts of Europe that members of deposed dynasties retain their titles. By now many of them have done so for two centuries. This tradition is so old that Andreas Palailogos could sell his imperial titles and his claims to the throne of the Eastern Roman Empire to King Charles VIII of France whose descendants Louis XII, Francois I, Henri II & Francois II all used imperial titles and honors.
But the longstanding court tradition extends to deposed nobility as well (and in certain European countries the line between royalty and nobility is blurred).

For instance, the Palace called the parents of the future Lady Nicholas Windsor by the Italian noble titles "Don" and "Donna" in the announcement of her engagement to Lord Nicholas.
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  #5102  
Old 07-19-2020, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ACO View Post
Seems Edo had just jumped the gun. The official pages reposted the images.

https://twitter.com/royalfamily/stat...425460225?s=21

So there you go: the official (?) Royal Family twitter account is still referring to Beatrice as Her Royal Highness Princess Beatrice of York and to her husband as Mr. Mapelli Mozzi (no "Count").



The confusiion about Beatrice's style seems to be the same we have seen with her sister.
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  #5103  
Old 07-19-2020, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
So there you go: the official (?) Royal Family twitter account is still referring to Beatrice as Her Royal Highness Princess Beatrice of York and to her husband as Mr. Mapelli Mozzi (no "Count").



The confusiion about Beatrice's style seems to be the same we have seen with her sister.

But if Beatrice has taken Edo’s name, it wouldn’t have been official document wise yesterday, perhaps that makes a difference.
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  #5104  
Old 07-19-2020, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by carlota View Post

in other matters, i am most confused/surprised that the press is referring to edo as Mr Mapelli Mozzi - surely it is Count Mapelli Mozzi?! the fact that it isn't a british title should make no difference.
Edo does not use his title socially or in business so neither does BP, they have previously used courtesy and defunct titles when referring to Italian nobility.

However it appears his father Count Alessandro Mapelli Mozzi does use his, but BP called him "Mr" on the official engagement announcement. Possibly that was to head off any official speculation of referring to Beatrice as "Countess".
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  #5105  
Old 07-19-2020, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
Edo does not use his title socially or in business so neither does BP, they have previously used courtesy and defunct titles when referring to Italian nobility.

However it appears his father Count Alessandro Mapelli Mozzi does use his, but BP called him "Mr" on the official engagement announcement. Possibly that was to head off any official speculation of referring to Beatrice as "Countess".
I doubt either Edo or Beatrice will ever be referred to as “ count” or “ countess” in the UK . Furthermore, I don’t tink Edo has ever shown any interest in using his family title socially ( unlike his father for example). Using the title or not will not change the fact that he is of noble birth, which is what truly matters in my opinion.

I do expect , however, that , following British custom, Princess Beatrice will no longer be referred to as “ Beatrice of York”. That is why the tweet is confusing to me.
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  #5106  
Old 07-19-2020, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I doubt either Edo or Beatrice will ever be referred to as “ count” or “ countess” in the UK . Furthermore, I don’t tink Edo has ever shown any interest in using his family title socially ( unlike his father for example). Using the title or not will not change the fact that he is of noble birth, which is what truly matters in my opinion.

I do expect , however, that , following British custom, Princess Beatrice will no longer be referred to as “ Beatrice of York”. That is why the tweet is confusing to me.
She'll be either Princess Beatrice, Mrs Ed Mapella or "Princess Beatrice of York Mrs Ed Mapella..."
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  #5107  
Old 07-19-2020, 01:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I do expect , however, that , following British custom, Princess Beatrice will no longer be referred to as “ Beatrice of York”. That is why the tweet is confusing to me.
The official royal website still refers to Eugenie as Princess Eugenie of York.
https://www.royal.uk/succession
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  #5108  
Old 07-19-2020, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
The official royal website still refers to Eugenie as Princess Eugenie of York.
https://www.royal.uk/succession
Adding more to the confusion. Maybe the Court does not stick to custom as they used to. We see it in the mix-ups with precedence at state events.
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  #5109  
Old 07-19-2020, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Adding more to the confusion. Maybe the Court does not stick to custom as they used to. We see it in the mix-ups with precedence at state events.
i dot see its a big deal. Customs for addressing married women have changed a lot in the past 50 years.. and although the queen's a traditionalist, I imagine the palace is changing with the times. Is there really a difference between Pss Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brookbank and Pss Eugenie of York Mrs JB
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  #5110  
Old 07-19-2020, 01:30 PM
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The same succession list refers to "Mrs Michael Tindall" so maybe it is personal preference?
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  #5111  
Old 07-19-2020, 01:36 PM
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Princess Eugenie's title after marriage has been extensively discussed in this thread: Jack Brooksbank: Is there a Title in his future? I will post an update there in short order.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Adding more to the confusion. Maybe the Court does not stick to custom as they used to. We see it in the mix-ups with precedence at state events.
Princess [name], Mrs. [husband's given name] [husband's family name] is not a longstanding custom, though, as Princess Alexandra is the only precedent.
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  #5112  
Old 07-19-2020, 01:42 PM
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The court website also excludes Zara's children and previously had the order in line to the throne incorrect (with Lady Helen and her children ahead of her brother's children) - and has been late adjusting the line of succession at times, so, it seems the people behind the CC are a bit more precise and/or use different rules than the ones keeping the website up-to-date...
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  #5113  
Old 07-19-2020, 01:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
The court website also excludes Zara's children and previously had the order in line to the throne incorrect (with Lady Helen and her children ahead of her brother's children) - and has been late adjusting the line of succession at times, so, it seems the people behind the CC are a bit more precise and/or use different rules than the ones keeping the website up-to-date...
As discussed in the thread I linked to, the website did revise her title to Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank in the listing of members of the royal family - but it was later changed once more.
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  #5114  
Old 07-19-2020, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Heavs View Post
The same succession list refers to "Mrs Michael Tindall" so maybe it is personal preference?
I think it's because Mrs Michael Tindall doesn't have a title to use instead whereas The Princess Royal and Princess Eugenie do. They don't lose their 'Princess' on marriage in the same way that an Earl's or Duke's daughter doesn't lose 'Lady'. Someone more expert will correct me if I'm wrong.
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  #5115  
Old 07-19-2020, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
I think it's because Mrs Michael Tindall doesn't have a title to use instead whereas The Princess Royal and Princess Eugenie do. They don't lose their 'Princess' on marriage in the same way that an Earl's or Duke's daughter doesn't lose 'Lady'. Someone more expert will correct me if I'm wrong.
But Zara might prefer to be known as Mrs. Zara Tindall.. or Ms. Tindall, or Ms. Zara Phillips TIndall. the old fashioned "correct" title for a married woman is "Mrs Michael Tindall" but not all women like that now. But I can't see any difference if Eugenie is Known as Princess Eug of York, Mrs. Jack B or "Princess Eugenie Mrs Jack B".

Years ago, when there were a lot of Princesses who often had the same first name using "Princess Victoria of Cambridge" was more important to distinguish her from her cousin Princess Victoria of York...but now, there are few princesses and they don't use the same names... so its hardly much of an issue
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  #5116  
Old 07-19-2020, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Lilyflo View Post
I think it's because Mrs Michael Tindall doesn't have a title to use instead whereas The Princess Royal and Princess Eugenie do. They don't lose their 'Princess' on marriage in the same way that an Earl's or Duke's daughter doesn't lose 'Lady'. Someone more expert will correct me if I'm wrong.
Possibly, but Princess Eugenie of York is the equivalent of using Miss Zara Phillips.

If the website was being consistent about it, it would list Princess Eugenie, Mrs Jack Brooksbank along with Mrs Michael Tindall.

Ultimately it doesn't really matter, it's just interesting.
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  #5117  
Old 07-19-2020, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
But Zara might prefer to be known as Mrs. Zara Tindall.. or Ms. Tindall, or Ms. Zara Phillips TIndall. the old fashioned "correct" title for a married woman is "Mrs Michael Tindall" but not all women like that now.
I agree. For reasons I explained in this post, I believe the form "Mrs. [husband's given name] [husband's family name]" is the preference of Queen Elizabeth, not the preference of her granddaughters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denville View Post
But I can't see any difference if Eugenie is Known as Princess Eug of York, Mrs. Jack B or "Princess Eugenie Mrs Jack B".
In references to Eugenie it has always been either Princess Eugenie of York or Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank without the of York.
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  #5118  
Old 07-19-2020, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I agree. For reasons I explained in this post, I believe the form "Mrs. [husband's given name] [husband's family name]" is the preference of Queen Elizabeth, not the preference of her granddaughters.



In references to Eugenie it has always been either Princess Eugenie of York or Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank without the of York.
yes I know. I think the queen's very old fashioned.. but a younger woman like Zara might prefer not to be known by "Mrs Husband's Name..."
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  #5119  
Old 07-19-2020, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
But Zara might prefer to be known as Mrs. Zara Tindall.. or Ms. Tindall, or Ms. Zara Phillips TIndall. the old fashioned "correct" title for a married woman is "Mrs Michael Tindall" but not all women like that now. But I can't see any difference if Eugenie is Known as Princess Eug of York, Mrs. Jack B or "Princess Eugenie Mrs Jack B".
Yes I believe she prefers to use Zara Tindall in her riding life doesn't she? She's obviously happy to be styled in the traditional way here though. My point is that Zara doesn't have a title, whereas the others do, they don't lose them on marriage and they've chosen to continue using them.
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  #5120  
Old 07-19-2020, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Princess Eugenie's title after marriage has been extensively discussed in this thread: Jack Brooksbank: Is there a Title in his future? I will post an update there in short order.



Princess [name], Mrs. [husband's given name] [husband's family name] is not a longstanding custom, though, as Princess Alexandra is the only precedent.
I believe the custom has always been the same , I.e. a married princess takes her husband’s style as another non-royal wife would. The wife of the Earl of Snowdon is known as the Countess of Snowdon rather than being called by her husband’s family name ( or surname as I guess you say in the UK). The wife of The Honourable Sir Angus Ogilvy on the other hand is The Honourable Lady Ogilvy , and the wife of Mr Jack Brooksbank is Mrs Jack Brooksbank.

The only difference to a non-royal wife is that the dignity of Princess and the style of HRH , prefixed to the given names , are not lost with marriage since, in Beatrice’s case, they are tied to being a granddaughter of a British sovereign in male line. The designation “HRH Princess Beatrice “ would be superseded, I think, only by another Foreign royal title of higher relative rank ( like Crown Princess of Denmark for example), although I am not sure how royal families handle those cases nowadays as dynastic marriages are so rare.

In the UK, even equal or higher ranked foreign titles were superseded by British royal titles upon marriage.
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