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  #5001  
Old 07-02-2020, 08:13 PM
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Thanks! Is it clear whether "As Princess Marina, the Duchess of Kent will be reverting to her title before her marriage" was how it was put by Kensington Palace, or merely the assumption of The Times' reporter? I would have thought the "Princess" would refer to her British title, not her Greek one.

It is also worth mentioning that there was, likewise, no tradition of styling widows as Dowager Duchess in the British royal family. Marina was the first royal duchess in the British royal family to have her title taken over by a daughter-in-law during her (the mother-in-law's) lifetime.
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  #5002  
Old 07-02-2020, 08:34 PM
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Thanks! Is it clear whether "As Princess Marina, the Duchess of Kent will be reverting to her title before her marriage" was how it was put by Kensington Palace, or merely the assumption of The Times' reporter? I would have thought the "Princess" would refer to her British title, not her Greek one.

It is also worth mentioning that there was, likewise, no tradition of styling widows as Dowager Duchess in the British royal family. Marina was the first royal duchess in the British royal family to have her title taken over by a daughter-in-law during her (the mother-in-law's) lifetime.
Technically, princess Helena of Waldeck-Pyrmont had been in that position from 1905.

She was the duchess of Albany by marriage. In 1882 she married the duke of Albany, was pregnant of his son in 1884 when the duke died. Her son, the new duke of Albany got married in 1905 (but by that time was known as Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha; nonetheless, his wife was also Duchess of Albany). And it seems Helena's titles weren't revoked in 1919 (please correct me if I'm wrong but I'd say only her son's and his children's British titles were revoked; while she and her daughter kept those but at least her daughter relinquished her German titles and she probably did as well); so in the final 3 years she was the only Duchess of Albany again?!
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  #5003  
Old 07-02-2020, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Thanks! Is it clear whether "As Princess Marina, the Duchess of Kent will be reverting to her title before her marriage" was how it was put by Kensington Palace, or merely the assumption of The Times' reporter? I would have thought the "Princess" would refer to her British title, not her Greek one.
I couldn't find an official announcement by Kensington Palace.

The British press called her "Princess Marina" during her engagement and "Duchess of Kent" following her marriage. I believe this what the reporter had in mind, without making a distinction between her Greek and British titles.

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It is also worth mentioning that there was, likewise, no tradition of styling widows as Dowager Duchess in the British royal family. Marina was the first royal duchess in the British royal family to have her title taken over by a daughter-in-law during her (the mother-in-law's) lifetime.
Very interesting observation on your part! I wonder how the current Duchesses of Kent and Gloucester will chose to be styled if they survive their husbands.
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  #5004  
Old 07-02-2020, 08:44 PM
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Technically, princess Helena of Waldeck-Pyrmont had been in that position from 1905.

She was the duchess of Albany by marriage. In 1882 she married the duke of Albany, was pregnant of his son in 1884 when the duke died. Her son, the new duke of Albany got married in 1905 (but by that time was known as Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha; nonetheless, his wife was also Duchess of Albany). And it seems Helena's titles weren't revoked in 1919 (please correct me if I'm wrong but I'd say only her son's and his children's British titles were revoked; while she and her daughter kept those but at least her daughter relinquished her German titles and she probably did as well); so in the final 3 years she was the only Duchess of Albany again?!

Back to the Times Archive! The Court Circular referred to her as the Duchess of Albany at the time of her death in 1922.
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  #5005  
Old 07-02-2020, 08:48 PM
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Would she? Unlike Meghan, Sarah is a British citizen. Would British naming customs truly apply to an American after a divorce instead of American naming rules and customs?

If she legally changed her name to 'Mountbatten-Windsor' (I don't think we know for sure; or do we?), my guess would be that she would be Meghan Mountbatten-Windsor; or she could return to being Meghan Markle (reverting back to her maiden name just like she did after her first divorce).
Like Tessy Antony, she might have to use the old title or constantly refer to it for the purposes making a living.
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  #5006  
Old 07-02-2020, 08:54 PM
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Technically, princess Helena of Waldeck-Pyrmont had been in that position from 1905.

She was the duchess of Albany by marriage. In 1882 she married the duke of Albany, was pregnant of his son in 1884 when the duke died. Her son, the new duke of Albany got married in 1905 (but by that time was known as Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha; nonetheless, his wife was also Duchess of Albany).
That's right. But her daughter-in-law did not use the title, as she was known by her German royal title, and thus Helena could (and did) continue to be officially known as HRH The Duchess of Albany even while her daughter-in-law was the legal duchess, and the British royal family did not face the dilemma of how to differentiate a widowed royal duchess from her daughter-in-law until Marina and Katharine.
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  #5007  
Old 07-02-2020, 09:16 PM
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Technically, princess Helena of Waldeck-Pyrmont had been in that position from 1905. [...] but at least her daughter relinquished her German titles and she probably did as well)
Helena seemingly would have remained a princess of Waldeck and Pyrmont, as the declaration of King George V by which the royal family relinquished its German titles covered only descendants of Queen Victoria who were British subjects. She was a British subject by marriage, but not a descendant of Queen Victoria, unless the British definition of "descendant" includes in-laws.

(Note that whereas George V's declaration concerning the family name of Windsor affected only male-line descendants of Queen Victoria who were British subjects, the relinquishment of German titles affected all descendants of Queen Victoria who were British subjects.)

Now, therefore, We, out of Our Royal Will and Authority, do hereby declare and announce that as from the date of this Our Royal Proclamation Our House and Family shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that all the descendants in the male line of Our said Grandmother Queen Victoria who are subjects of these Realms, other than female descendants who may marry or may have married, shall bear the said Name of Windsor:
And do hereby further declare and announce that We for Ourselves and for and on behalf of Our descendants and all other the descendants of Our said Grandmother Queen Victoria who are subjects of these Realms, relinquish and enjoin the discontinuance of the use of the Degrees, Styles, Dignities, Titles and Honours of Dukes and Duchesses of Saxony and Princes and Princesses of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and all other German Degrees, Styles, Dignities. Titles, Honours and Appellations to Us or to them heretofore belonging or appertaining.
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  #5008  
Old 07-02-2020, 09:25 PM
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Back to the Times Archive! The Court Circular referred to her as the Duchess of Albany at the time of her death in 1922.
Thanks for looking it up. As I said, at that point there was no other duchess of Albany, however between 1905 and 1919 there was, so, it would be interesting to see whether she was still styled as the Duchess of Albany given that her daughter-in-law although being THE Duchess of Albany was styled as the Duchess of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha.
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  #5009  
Old 07-02-2020, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Helena seemingly would have remained a princess of Waldeck and Pyrmont, as the declaration of King George V by which the royal family relinquished its German titles covered only descendants of Queen Victoria who were British subjects. She was a British subject by marriage, but not a descendant of Queen Victoria, unless the British definition of "descendant" includes in-laws.

(Note that whereas George V's declaration concerning the family name of Windsor affected only male-line descendants of Queen Victoria who were British subjects, the relinquishment of German titles affected all descendants of Queen Victoria who were British subjects.)

Now, therefore, We, out of Our Royal Will and Authority, do hereby declare and announce that as from the date of this Our Royal Proclamation Our House and Family shall be styled and known as the House and Family of Windsor, and that all the descendants in the male line of Our said Grandmother Queen Victoria who are subjects of these Realms, other than female descendants who may marry or may have married, shall bear the said Name of Windsor:
And do hereby further declare and announce that We for Ourselves and for and on behalf of Our descendants and all other the descendants of Our said Grandmother Queen Victoria who are subjects of these Realms, relinquish and enjoin the discontinuance of the use of the Degrees, Styles, Dignities, Titles and Honours of Dukes and Duchesses of Saxony and Princes and Princesses of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, and all other German Degrees, Styles, Dignities. Titles, Honours and Appellations to Us or to them heretofore belonging or appertaining.
Thanks! It seemed weird that she would have relinquished her birth titles, so glad to see that she wasn't required to do so as she was only an in-law and not a direct descendant.
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  #5010  
Old 07-02-2020, 09:35 PM
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Thanks for looking it up. As I said, at that point there was no other duchess of Albany, however between 1905 and 1919 there was, so, it would be interesting to see whether she was still styled as the Duchess of Albany given that her daughter-in-law although being THE Duchess of Albany was styled as the Duchess of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha.
Yes, the dowager was still styled as HRH The Duchess of Albany between 1905 and 1919; examples can be looked up in the official gazette of the British government.
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  #5011  
Old 07-02-2020, 09:38 PM
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Yes, the dowager was still styled as HRH The Duchess of Albany between 1905 and 1919; examples can be looked up in the official gazette of the British government.
Thanks, I searched for 'The Duchess of Albany' and the first link in that period (from 1911, September 27) reads: Her Royal Highness the Duchess Dowager of Albany. The same title was used in 1902.

However, it seems that in the London Gazette when listing the procession at the same occasion (the coronation), she was indeed referenced as the Duchess of Albany; but her sister-in-law seated in the same carriage was called 'Dowager Duchess of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha'. So, apparently, she was either addressed as the The Duchess Dowager of Albany or with the shortened version The Duchess of Albany (as her daughter-in-law was in Germany and not known by that name; it seemed that the Duke and Duchess of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha were among the few family members not to attend the coronation in 1911).
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  #5012  
Old 07-02-2020, 09:41 PM
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Yes, the dowager was still styled as HRH The Duchess of Albany between 1905 and 1919; examples can be looked up in the official gazette of the British government.

Yes, and she was referred to the Duchess of Albany in the Court Circular of November 17, 1905 (published in the November 18 1905 issue of The Times), one month after her son's marriage. Her daughter was referred to as the Duchess of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha.
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  #5013  
Old 07-02-2020, 09:46 PM
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Thanks, I searched for 'The Duchess of Albany' and the first link in that period (from 1911) reads: Her Royal Highness the Duchess Dowager of Albany.

The same title was used in 1902.
But there are many more uses of the simple 'Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Albany', including but not limited to these:

1908
1909
1910
1910
1911
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  #5014  
Old 07-02-2020, 09:48 PM
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Thanks, I searched for 'The Duchess of Albany' and the first link in that period (from 1911) reads: Her Royal Highness the Duchess Dowager of Albany.

The same title was used in 1902.

When I searched The Times Archive for "Dowager Duchess of Albany" I only found one article, from 1932, when her daughter Princess Alice visited a hospital the late Duchess had been connected with. Otherwise, she's called "the Duchess of Albany."

So as you point out, technically she was the Dowager Duchess but because the actual Duchess used another title, Dowager was seldom used.
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  #5015  
Old 07-02-2020, 10:17 PM
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When I searched The Times Archive for "Dowager Duchess of Albany" I only found one article, from 1932, when her daughter Princess Alice visited a hospital the late Duchess had been connected with. Otherwise, she's called "the Duchess of Albany."

So as you point out, technically she was the Dowager Duchess but because the actual Duchess used another title, Dowager was seldom used.
It seemed the court used the title 'Duchess Dowager' instead of 'Dowager Duchess'... if they referred to her as 'dowager'.
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  #5016  
Old 07-02-2020, 10:18 PM
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But there are many more uses of the simple 'Her Royal Highness the Duchess of Albany', including but not limited to these:

1908
1909
1910
1910
1911
I indeed found several examples to references as 'the Duchess of Albany', nonetheless, the royals DID have a title for this situation: The Duchess Dowager of X'... So, that would have been the point of reference and Marina apparently preferred not to be known as 'The Duchess Dowager of Kent'.

And personally, I don't think she would have been granted the style of 'Princess Marina, Duchess of Kent', had she not been a princess in her own right; as in that case she would have been 'Princess George, Duchess of Kent'. Princess Alice, Duchess of Gloucester seemed to have 'profited' from the permission her sister-in-law had had previously and while not a princess of the blood was granted permission to use a similar style.
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  #5017  
Old 07-02-2020, 10:37 PM
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It seemed the court used the title 'Duchess Dowager' instead of 'Dowager Duchess'... if they referred to her as 'dowager'.

Oops, sorry! Your eyes are sharper than mine, I didn't catch the "Duchess Dowager" as opposed to "Dowager Duchess" in your post.

When I typed "Duchess Dowager of Albany" in The Times Archive I found one article, dated 1913, which does refer to her as the Duchess Dowager of Albany.

As I stated earlier, I also found one article which called her "Dowager Duchess of Albany."

But when I typed "Duchess of Albany" I found 1,561 articles from 1905-1922. These results include the Court Circular.

So it appears she was only occasionally referred to as Dowager.
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  #5018  
Old 07-03-2020, 01:28 PM
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Thank you for that discussion & those links. I have never heard the title duchess dowager before. It doesn't sound too mournful that way round really.
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  #5019  
Old 07-05-2020, 10:32 AM
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What would be your thoughts on titles and peerages for the next generation. Some might argue Charlotte and Louis shouldn't be granted any additional titles and peerages but I'd like that tradition to continue and would hope that they will support their brother in his royal duties and not run off or make themselves impossible to keep like their uncle and great-uncle.

However, in normal circumstances prince Louis's children would be royal highnesses while Charlotte's children would not while higher in line of succession. So, I was wondering whether the following proposal could be a solution:

Either Charlotte could be given a dukedom (somewhat revolutionary but could consistently be applied to all children of a monarch - however, that would most likely also require their children to take her surname if their style would be derived from hers; or combine it with her husband's surname?) or her husband could be granted an earldom (like was done for previous princesses; with princess Anne as exception; that would be the easier solution); continuing the new practice that was introduced for Edward and Sophie's children, their children are styled as children of a peer (duke/earl) not as royal highnesses; as they aren't expected to carry out royal duties, unlike their parents. However, I am not sure what legal provisions would need to be in place for that to happen if their father wouldn't be a peer...

Louis is granted a dukedom, like the sons of monarch's before him, and like his sister's/E&S's children, they are styled as children of a duke.
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  #5020  
Old 07-05-2020, 11:01 AM
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Either Charlotte could be given a dukedom (somewhat revolutionary but could consistently be applied to all children of a monarch - however, that would most likely also require their children to take her surname if their style would be derived from hers; or combine it with her husband's surname?)
Historically, the British patrilineal naming convention has generally been followed even with children of peeresses in their own right. For example, the children of the late Countess Mountbatten were born with the family name Knatchbull, not Mountbatten.


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However, I am not sure what legal provisions would need to be in place for that to happen if their father wouldn't be a peer...
Were Charlotte to be granted a dukedom (or earldom), her children would automatically under the rules of the peerage be styled in the same manner as the children of a male duke (or earl). (The daughters of Countess Mountbatten are styled Lady though their father was only a Baron.)

However, her husband would remain styled as a plain Mr., unless special provisions were made.

Without a peerage, I suppose Letters Patent would be issued if the Sovereign wished to grant courtesy titles to her children. The children of Prince Michael of Kent, who does not hold a peerage, are styled as children of dukes under the letters patent of King George V.
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