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  #4241  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:52 AM
Majesty
 
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
Please excuse me for missing this, but I forgot that this child will not be hrh as Charles and Andrews children were.Can someone recap for me or send me to the right thread which showed how that worked and then I think I do remember that the queen issued patents that all of Williams children would be hrh. In other words a long-winded way of saying what is the rule for children to be hrh
Currently, the following persons are HRHs in the UK:

1) Children of a British sovereign.

2) Children of a son of a British sovereign ( exception:: the Earl of Wessex’s children).

3) Children of the eldest living son of the Prince of Wales.

4) Wives of a British prince.

5). The Duke of Edinburgh as the reigning Queen’s husband.

Harry’s child will be born as a great-grandchild of a British sovereign in male line and., as such, will be styled as a child of a Duke in the peerage of the UK. If it is a boy, he will use one of his father’s subsidiary titles in the peerage, probably Earl of Dumbarton; if it is a girl, she will be styled Lady xxx Mountbatten-Windsor.

When Prince Charles becomes King, Harry’s children will be upgraded to HRHs as grandchildren of a King in male line, unless the King decides otherwise, which is possible.
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  #4242  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
Please excuse me for missing this, but I forgot that this child will not be hrh as Charles and Andrews children were.Can someone recap for me or send me to the right thread which showed how that worked and then I think I do remember that the queen issued patents that all of Williams children would be hrh. In other words a long-winded way of saying what is the rule for children to be hrh
Charles and Andrew’s children were male line grandchildren of the monarch. Harry’s child currently will only be a male line great grandchild of the monarch. George would have been HRH Prince as the eldest son of the eldest son of the Prince of Wales-LP 2917.
The change making all William’s children HRH Prince/Princess was because of the change from male primogeniture for the monarch.
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  #4243  
Old 04-30-2019, 10:54 AM
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It's a fact of life Harry has known from day one. The Cambridge children are different from Harry's children.

Even little Prince Louis has his birthday marked by bell ringing at Westminster Abbey. Harry doesn't get that on his birthday.

His children will be fortunate to live a relatively low key life.
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  #4244  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
It's a fact of life Harry has known from day one. The Cambridge children are different from Harry's children.

Even little Prince Louis has his birthday marked by bell ringing at Westminster Abbey. Harry doesn't get that on his birthday.

His children will be fortunate to live a relatively low key life.
Why would that be? Because Harry and Louis are in the same position (younger son of a future king).
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  #4245  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Why would that be? Because Harry and Louis are in the same position (younger son of a future king).
It's a decision made by the Queen. Westminster Abbey is a royal peculiar under HM's authority.

The Cambridges birthdays are also official flag flying days in the UK. Not a courtesy extended to the Sussex family.

That decision is made by the government.
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  #4246  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:29 AM
ACO ACO is offline
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
It's a decision made by the Queen. Westminster Abbey is a royal peculiar under HM's authority.

The Cambridges birthdays are also official flag flying days in the UK. Not a courtesy extended to the Sussex family.

That decision is made by the government.
Harry will get bells when Charles is King, iirc. William's children are the direct line. I think they do with Charlotte and Louise the same as George to keep that continuity. The same reason she issued the letters to make sure not just the 1st born male was HRH.

It makes perfect sense. The Sussex children don't have that awkwardness as none of them would have been born HRH unlike with the Cambridge kids.
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  #4247  
Old 04-30-2019, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
The child or children if they have more will become HRH when Charles is King. This is due to the LP's issued back when by King George (I forget what number but I think the Queen's grandfather).


LaRae
I think it was King George V. Does anyone know why he issues these LP's?
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  #4248  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by duchessrachel View Post
I think it was King George V. Does anyone know why he issues these LP's?
There are various theories out there about it. Here's a site that explores 3 possible reasons:

https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/ta...etters-patent/
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  #4249  
Old 04-30-2019, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
There are various theories out there about it. Here's a site that explores 3 possible reasons:

https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/ta...etters-patent/
My understanding is that the main issue was that, previously, great-granchildren of a sovereign in male line were also normally princes too, but with the style only of HH rather than HRH. George V issued those LPs to limit the number of princes/ princesses.
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  #4250  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
There are various theories out there about it. Here's a site that explores 3 possible reasons:

https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/ta...etters-patent/
Thanks. Those are very interesting theories.
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  #4251  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
There are various theories out there about it. Here's a site that explores 3 possible reasons:

https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/ta...etters-patent/
Personal vendetta against the Connaughts? I doubt that very much.

In 1917 Britain was fighting a war against the Central Powers (including Germany), the BRF had just renounced its German styles and titles (taking Windsor as the name of the Royal house) and stripped enemy combatants (even cousins) of their British titles.

At that time it was also unclear whether distant male-line descendants of a sovereign were HRHs or merely HHs (by distant I mean great-grandchildren, great-great-grandchildren, etc.). Follow the link below for a discussion: Victoria, Edward VII, George V (to 1917)

George V apparently decided it was a good time to (1) end the confusion by defining who was entitled to the HRH/HH, and (2) slim the BRF royal family down by (a) limiting the HRH to the children of the sovereign & the children of the sovereign's sons, and (b) limiting the HH to the oldest son of the oldest son of the Prince of Wales [oops - editing this because I was mistaken - under the LP the oldest son of the oldest son of the Prince of Wales is an HRH. George V phased the HH out]

I suspect he didn't want a repeat of 1917 when he was confronted by the fact that an enemy combatant, the Duke of Brunswick, was also a Prince of the UK, as a male-line great-great-grandson of George III, despite the fact that his family hadn't lived in the UK in 80 years.
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  #4252  
Old 04-30-2019, 01:34 PM
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In 1948 George VI issued a letter of patent for Queen Elizabeth (then Princess Elizabeth)'s children to be born HRH Prince Charles and HRH Princess Anne, because they were female line grandchildren.

https://www.rd.com/culture/how-the-m...-their-titles/
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  #4253  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:13 PM
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Anne is the daughter of the Monarch so she is an HRH..and Pss Alexandra was the grand daughter of a monarch George V and she is HRH
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  #4254  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:18 PM
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So only the grandchildren of sons are HRH, or the children of the oldest son of pow no matter what gender. That means that princess Alexandra is not an HRH? And, the Wessex children technically are but prefer not to use it?And that p Anne’s children would not be HRH?

thank you. So any grandchildren of sons of the monarch are HRH. Like Beatrice and Eugenia but not princess annes children.
Amazing to see how many males in this family when you are trying to understand this stuff!
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  #4255  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Denville View Post
Anne is the daughter of the Monarch so she is an HRH..and Pss Alexandra was the grand daughter of a monarch George V and she is HRH
Again, at the time of Anne's birth, her mother was not the Monarch, but Princess Elizabeth. The then Monarch George VI issued a letter of patent for Prince Elizabeth (now Queen)'s children to be born HRH Prince Charles and HRH Princess Anne. At birth Charles and Anne were female line grandchildren of George VI so letter of patent was necessary for them to be born HRH.
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  #4256  
Old 04-30-2019, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
So only the grandchildren of sons are HRH, or the children of the oldest son of pow no matter what gender. That means that princess Alexandra is not an HRH? And, the Wessex children technically are but prefer not to use it?And that p Anne’s children would not be HRH?
Pss Alexandra is the granddaughter of the King, via a son (Prince George, Duke of Kent), so she is HRH. The Wessex children are entitled to be HRH since Edward is a son of the Monarch's but their parents chose that they would not be so titled..and would just be Viscount severn and Lady Louise.

Anne's children are not the children of a prince.. so they take their rank from their father and he is not royal and does not have a title of nobility. So they re Mr and Miss Phillips.
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  #4257  
Old 04-30-2019, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Frelinghighness View Post
thank you. So any grandchildren of sons of the monarch are HRH. Like Beatrice and Eugenia but not princess annes children.
Amazing to see how many males in this family when you are trying to understand this stuff!
No, George V's Letters Patent (1917) limit the HRH to the following:
(1) The monarch's children
(2) The children of the monarch's sons
(3) The oldest son of the oldest son of the Prince of Wales [I goofed in my earlier post when I said this royal would have an HH]. The other grandchildren of the monarch's sons would not be HRH. They would have the style and dignity of children of a Duke (Lords and Ladies).

Before the birth of Prince George the Queen issued new Letters Patent granting the HRH to ALL of William's children. Otherwise George would be HRH Prince George but his siblings would be Lady Charlotte and Lord Louis (following #3 above).

Likewise, unless new Letters Patent are issued, Harry's children will be Lord and Ladies (his oldest son will also have the courtesy title of Earl of Dumbarton). Once Charles becomes King they will be entitled to the HRH as children of the monarch's son (#2 above).

I hope this makes sense!
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  #4258  
Old 04-30-2019, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Pranter View Post
There are various theories out there about it. Here's a site that explores 3 possible reasons:

https://www.royalhistorygeeks.com/ta...etters-patent/

I read that but while I can imagine that the first two ideas may have some truth in it, the last one sounds very implausible. King George V. and the father of Alaistair of Connaught, HRH Prince Albert of Connaught and Streathearn, were not only close friends, but Albert served his king and country till the end. Here are some of his orders (British only - source: Wikipedia)

donated to him by Victoria, Edward VII. and George V. While his son was a dreamer and not very talented as a career officer, his father was and served the king throughout his whole life, dying shortly after the coronation of George VI.



So honestly I cannot imagine the changes George V. did was to diminish Alaistair, who was just 4 years old and already the heir of both mother's and father's (future) dukedoms.
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  #4259  
Old 04-30-2019, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Gawin View Post
No, George V's Letters Patent (1917) limit the HRH to the following:
(1) The monarch's children
(2) The children of the monarch's sons
(3) The oldest son of the oldest son of the Prince of Wales [I goofed in my earlier post when I said this royal would have an HH]. The other grandchildren of the monarch's sons would not be HRH. They would have the style and dignity of children of a Duke (Lords and Ladies).

Before the birth of Prince George the Queen issued new Letters Patent granting the HRH to ALL of William's children. Otherwise George would be HRH Prince George but his siblings would be Lady Charlotte and Lord Louis (following #3 above).

Likewise, unless new Letters Patent are issued, Harry's children will be Lord and Ladies (his oldest son will also have the courtesy title of Earl of Dumbarton). Once Charles becomes King they will be entitled to the HRH as children of the monarch's son (#2 above).

I hope this makes sense!
But the main reason the Queen issued new letters patent when William and Kate were expecting their first child was because the rules of succession had changed. A first born girl would be the Queen but not be an HRH, while her younger brother, not the heir, would be an HRH Prince as the eldest son of the eldest son of the s Prince of Wales. That would be weird.
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  #4260  
Old 04-30-2019, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
But the main reason the Queen issued new letters patent when William and Kate were expecting their first child was because the rules of succession had changed. A first born girl would be the Queen but not be an HRH, while her younger brother, not the heir, would be an HRH Prince as the eldest son of the eldest son of the s Prince of Wales. That would be weird.
Yes, and she and could have covered that scenario by making the *oldest* child an HRH regardless of sex, but instead she covered all bases by making *ALL* the Cambridge children HRH.

Otherwise, had the first two children been daughters we may have ended up with:
#1 HRH Princess Charlotte (oldest child & heir, therefore HRH per the Queen's LP)
#2 Lady Victoria (second child and daughter, therefore not HRH per either LP)
#3 HRH Prince George (third child but oldest son, therefore HRH per George V's LP)
#4 Lord Louis (fourth child, therefore not HRH per either LP).

Very confusing! The Queen's LP only dealt specifically with the Cambridge children but at some point I suspect another monarch will completely replace George V's LP in accordance with the new rules of succession.
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