The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #3561  
Old 08-30-2018, 03:34 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 5,209
Quote:
Originally Posted by Queen Claude View Post
You're right, "inherit" is the incorrect word, I'll fix that sentence.
Q Claude, I hope you didn't feel I was being pedantic... Agree about the D of Cambridge situation. tho' even if William died, and George became D of Camb, eventaulay he would become King and the title would merge in the crown....
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #3562  
Old 08-30-2018, 03:38 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 4,035
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy100 View Post
Also bear in mind that Charles could technically give the title Duke to York to Harry if Andrew were to die before Charles.
Yes, in that case that would be a techincal possibility (that hopefully won't exist) but why would he do so? Harry already is a royal duke [whose title will cease to be royal in 2 generations (if he has male heirs of course)]. He could also make George duke of York or give that title to Jsmes or anyone else that he pleases. It is not a law that it is to be given to the second son.

Charles already has 2 titles to bestow: make his eldest son prince of Wales and his youngest brother Duke of Edinburgh.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #3563  
Old 08-30-2018, 04:03 PM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 4,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biri View Post
A Duke of York is a traditional title to the second son of the King; is it probablr that the Duke of Sussex will inherit it?
He can't inherit it as he is no descendant of Andrew. it would have to be new created for hinm. And also not all second sons of british Kings have been Duke iof York. If earlier Duke's of York had sons the title would have been inherited by them (like the Kent and Gloucester titles) and would not have been availible for recreation.
__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #3564  
Old 08-30-2018, 06:15 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, United States
Posts: 5,767
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lumutqueen View Post
He's never going to get another title. He will be The Duke of York, and DOY alone until he dies.
Actually, he is also the Earl of Inverness and the Baron Killyleagh.
Reply With Quote
  #3565  
Old 08-30-2018, 09:53 PM
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Coastal California, United States
Posts: 1,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathmannix View Post
When Prince Andrew was created Duke of York on his wedding day, he was also created Earl of Inverness and Baron Killyleagh (as Royal Duchies always have two subsidiary titles named for places in other countries within the UK, in this case Inverness in Scotland and Killyleagh in Northern Ireland to go with the Duke title for York in England.)
I know the Duchy will once again cease to exist upon the Duke's death (as he is unlikely to ever father a legitimate son at this point), unless of course a law is passed allowing all Duchies to pass to eldest daughters.
Under the current laws, would the subsidiary titles (both, or just the Earldom) go extinct as well upon his death, or are they inheritable by his daughters? And if they are, would they go into abeyance upon his death with a 50% share between Beatrice and Eugenie, or would they pass directly to Beatrice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathmannix View Post
Thanks! I wonder if Prince Andrew will one day be given a new title, perhaps a Marquessate, with special remainder to his daughters... (I guess the other, probably better, option would be to give titles to Beatrice and Eugenie directly if/when they get married. Or to their husbands, but I think it would be better and more "modern" to give the Princesses their own titles, plus that way they would still keep them if they got divorced.)
I think the Queen made her views on the matter clear when she granted William the Dukedom of Cambridge by creating it to be inherited by the heirs male of his body. I assume Harry’s Sussex Dukedom is the same. If the Queen was in favor of daughters inheriting the Dukedom she would have worded her grandsons’ Dukedoms to be inherited by the eldest child irrespective of sex IMO.
The Queen also announced that Edward’s children would not be Prince/Princess nor did she bestow a title on Peter when he married or on Mike when he and Zara married. If she chose in essence to demote the children of her third son and to not elevate the children of her second child and daughter, it seems very unlikely that she’d bestow titles on her second son Andrew’s daughters or their future spouses.
We don’t know how Charles feels, but I suspect when he becomes King that he will not disturb the terms of his mother’s creation of the York Dukedom.
Reply With Quote
  #3566  
Old 08-30-2018, 10:43 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 12,647
The LPs for Harry's dukedom are also 'heirs male of the body' so only Harry's sons and their male line descendants can inherit.

There is a case at the moment being prepared to go to the European Court of Human Rights by some eldest/only daughters who want the law changed arguing that 'heirs male' is discriminatory. The issue is also regularly raised in the UK parliament.

Only if the law were to change would Beatrice inherit York et al or a daughter of Harry's inherit his titles.

I highly doubt that Charles would change anything for Harry and not do it for Andrew's daughters as he would be truly seen as being a vindictive man if her were to do that.
Reply With Quote
  #3567  
Old 10-04-2018, 07:21 PM
Nobility
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Balmoral, United Kingdom
Posts: 495
If there was some tragic event in which the first dozen or so in line to the British throne passed away, and Princess Anne was unexpectedly to find herself on the throne, would her children, daughter in law, and male line grandchildren suddenly become HRHs?
Reply With Quote
  #3568  
Old 10-04-2018, 07:57 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 4,035
Quote:
Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
If there was some tragic event in which the first dozen or so in line to the British throne passed away, and Princess Anne was unexpectedly to find herself on the throne, would her children, daughter in law, and male line grandchildren suddenly become HRHs?
In this extremely unlikely event, I assume she would elevate her children to HRH by issuing LPs or using another measure with the same effect, just like Elizabeth's children were made royal highnesses as she was the heir and later queen.

Peter would automatically become the Duke of Cornwall as her eldest living son and heir apparent.
Reply With Quote
  #3569  
Old 10-04-2018, 08:01 PM
Iluvbertie's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bathurst, Australia
Posts: 12,647
Quote:
Originally Posted by royal-blue View Post
If there was some tragic event in which the first dozen or so in line to the British throne passed away, and Princess Anne was unexpectedly to find herself on the throne, would her children, daughter in law, and male line grandchildren suddenly become HRHs?
Under the 1917 LPs - absolutely.

Peter and Zara would be the children of the monarch and so qualify. Autumn, as the wife of a son of the monarch would also qualify. Savannah and Isla, also as male line grandchildren of the monarch would also be Princesses and Savannah would also be the future Queen due to the changes in legislation in 2015 with the Succession to the Crown Act as a younger brother couldn't replace her in the line of succession.

Zara's daughters and Mike would remain as they are however as the spouse and children of a daughter of the monarch.
Reply With Quote
  #3570  
Old 10-05-2018, 11:40 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Manassas, United States
Posts: 8
Titles merging into the crown - permanent?

The best way I can think of to ask this question is to presume some deaths to have occurred in the past; hopefully this doesn't offend!

On 20 Nov 1947, just before he married the future Elizabeth II (then HRH The Princess Elizabeth, heiress presumptive), HRH Sir Philip Mountbatten was created Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Merioneth, and Baron Greenwich. Usual inheritance rules for a Dukedom, to heirs male of his body, his male-line descendants.

Let's say that in 1949, after the 1948 birth of Charles (from birth Prince Charles of Edinburgh), that his mother, the Duchess of Edinburgh, died. So Charles succeeded his maternal grandfather as King Charles III (or possibly George VII) in 1952.

Let's say that the Duke of Edinburgh later remarried in 1958. Possibly to Princess Marie Alexandra of Schleswig-Holstein (1927-2000), if I have to pick somebody.

Let's say they had a son, Andrew (still a likely name for the Duke's second son, as it's after his own father, which is the Greek tradition.) He can still be born in 1960.

Let's say that the Duke of Edinburgh died shortly thereafter, in 1961.

Now, the Duchy of Edinburgh merged with the Crown, as it passed to the Duke's eldest son the King.

Let's say that the King (Charles III / George VII) died in 1975, unmarried. He would have been succeeded by his aunt, Princess Margaret, Countess of Snowdon.

But what about the Duchy of Edinburgh? Would it automatically fall to the former Duke's second son, (non-Prince) Andrew? Or did the title really disappear when the Duke died and it merged with the Crown?
Reply With Quote
  #3571  
Old 10-05-2018, 11:55 AM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 14,665
I believe that in the scenario that you've presented, with the death of the Duke of Edinburgh, the title would revert to the Crown as the heir to the title became King and *all* his titles would revert to the Crown at that time. It would then be at Charles' discretion to create a new Duke of Edinburgh or not.

As dukedoms are a peerage of the UK and subject to approval by Parliament, I seriously doubt that it would be approved that a son from a second marriage outside of the UK itself would past muster.

So, most likely in this scenario, the Duke of Edinburgh title would lie dormant until a future monarch with parliaments assent deemed a new creation of that title.
__________________
No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #3572  
Old 10-05-2018, 01:07 PM
Lumutqueen's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Middlewich, United Kingdom
Posts: 20,883
Osipi is correct, as Charles became King before his father died his fathers titles assuming the remainders were the same as they are now, would have merged with the crown and remained there for re-issue.
__________________
We Will Remember Them.
Reply With Quote
  #3573  
Old 10-05-2018, 01:26 PM
Queen Claude's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: USA, United States
Posts: 1,004
I agree with the above but if Charles pre-deceased Philip then the title would go to his second son from his second marriage, right?
Reply With Quote
  #3574  
Old 10-05-2018, 01:54 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 14,665
The scenario presented had the Duke of Edinburgh pass on before Charles dies.

I'm not overly sure about if the second son could inherit the title if, according to the scenario, Philip remarried someone outside of the UK and Charles predeceased him. Its an interesting point there. If the second son was foreign and not a UK citizen, would he be eligible to be a peer of the UK?

Iluvbertie would be one that would know more than I about this. I'm going to guess that the second son, Andrew, even though he may not be a UK citizen or reside in the UK, could still inherit his father's title as he is a heirs male of the title holder's body lawfully begotten. It used to be that hereditary peers could sit and vote in the House of Lords but with the the House of Lords Act 1999, it removed the entitlement of most of the hereditary Peers to sit and vote in the House of Lords.

ETA: OK. Its wikipedia but this is what is listed.

"Nothing prevents a British peerage from being held by a foreign citizen (although such peers cannot sit in the House of Lords, while the term foreign does not include Irish or Commonwealth citizens). Several descendants of George III were British peers and German subjects; the Lords Fairfax of Cameron were American citizens for several generations."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hereditary_peer
__________________
No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #3575  
Old 10-05-2018, 02:57 PM
Queen Claude's Avatar
Serene Highness
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: USA, United States
Posts: 1,004
In the scenario presented Philip's second wife is not British but did not specify that Philip relocated. Furthermore, royals marry foreigners all the time, marrying their own countrypeople is a fairly recent phenomenon. Philip marrying a foreigner will not jeopardize his title, I doubt if he relocated if that would jeopardize his title unless it is due to requirements tied to him (or his heir) being a Counsellor of State.

In my comment I noted that I agreed with the two previous responses, and then put forth a twist on the original scenario and then said that in the revised scenario the second son will inherit the title and asked for confirmation.
Reply With Quote
  #3576  
Old 10-05-2018, 03:08 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 14,665
According to what I found, there is nothing to bar a second son (no matter where he was born or lives) from inheriting the Duke of Edinburgh title if he was the eldest living son at the time Philip passed away. He just wouldn't be eligible to be elected to a seat in the House of Lords if, indeed, he was foreign or not a UK citizen.

Andrew though would never be close to being a Councilor of State. Those positions are held by the most senior members of the British Royal Family. Andrew, as a child of a second marriage of the Duke of Edinburgh would not be royal or in the line of succession at all. The dukedom of Edinburgh would cease to be a royal dukedom upon Philip's death even though his son, Andrew, inherits the title.
__________________
No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #3577  
Old 10-05-2018, 03:09 PM
Somebody's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Somewhere, Suriname
Posts: 4,035
In the end it's really simple. Once it merged with the crown it is 'gone' and needs to be recreated for anyone else to hold that title (as a new creation).
Reply With Quote
  #3578  
Old 10-05-2018, 03:11 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Manassas, United States
Posts: 8
Right, I never intended it to be a controversy in the question that Andrew was a foreigner. (It never occurred to me that a foreigner couldn't inherit a peerage, although in retrospect it is obvious that the UK wouldn't want foreigners in its House of Lords!) I just wondered if the title "Duke of Edinburgh" was treated as dormant while ostensibly being held by the King, subject to later separation as in my example, or if it really became extinct upon merging with the Crown.

It also would be interesting if Prince William, Duke of Cambridge, had had a daughter first and then a son. The daughter would be in line to succeed as Queen (under the new succession laws) but the son would be in line to succeed as Duke, but only if William died before becoming King and merging the Duchy into the Crown.
Reply With Quote
  #3579  
Old 10-05-2018, 03:52 PM
Osipi's Avatar
Imperial Majesty
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: On the west side of North up from Back, United States
Posts: 14,665
Another interesting tidbit is that in the Andrew scenario where Charles dies before Philip and Andrew inherits the Duke of Edinburgh title from his father. Andrew would be Andrew Mountbatten, 2nd Duke of Edinburgh (similar to Charles Spencer, 9th Earl Spencer. Charles is the 9th male to inherit the title from his father).

In the scenario where Philip dies and Charles becomes King and the Duke of Edinburgh title merges with the Crown, when a new Duke of Edinburgh is created, that person will be the Duke of Edinburgh and the count starts all over again as it is passed down the line.
__________________
No law can be sacred to me but that of my nature. Good and bad are but names very readily transferable to that or this; the only right is what is after my constitution, the only wrong what is against it.

~~~Ralph Waldo Emerson~~~
Reply With Quote
  #3580  
Old 10-05-2018, 03:52 PM
Heir Presumptive
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: alpine village, Germany
Posts: 2,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Andrew, as a child of a second marriage of the Duke of Edinburgh would not be royal or in the line of succession at all. The dukedom of Edinburgh would cease to be a royal dukedom upon Philip's death even though his son, Andrew, inherits the title.
He would be Royal and he would be in the line of succession because AFAIK you need the consent of the Danish monarch to rid yourself of Danish titles which Philip never got, so any child from a second marrige would be a Prince/ss of Greece and Denmark and a descendent of the electress Sophie, thus in line for the British throne, even if just further down the line.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
british royal family, consort, duke of york, kate, princess beatrice, queenmother, spouse, styles and titles, titles uk styles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 894 11-26-2019 11:04 PM
Non-British Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 782 10-28-2019 07:29 AM
Titles and Styles of Harry, his Future Wife and Children Aussie Princess The Duke and Duchess of Sussex and Family 1897 11-29-2017 03:13 AM
Styles and Titles Nahla10 Ruling Family of Dubai 50 06-02-2017 02:28 PM
Abdication Beatrix and Inauguration WA: Titles, Names, Succession, Precedence Princess Robijn King Willem-Alexander, Queen Máxima and family 67 05-24-2013 03:14 PM




Popular Tags
alqasimi archie mountbatten-windsor aristocracy belgian royal family birthday celebration castles chittagong cht clarence house countess of snowdon cover-up crown prince hussein's future wife crown princess victoria crusades current events danish history denmark duke & duchess of cambridge; duke of cambridge duke of sussex dutch dutch history dutch royal family felipe vi future germany henry v hill historical drama house of bourbon house of glucksburg house of orange-nassau house of saxe-coburg and gotha jerusalem jumma languages list of rulers lithuanian castles mail marriage mbs monaco royal monarchism nobel 2019 northern ireland norway norwegian royal family official visit palaces palestine prince charles prince harry prince of wales qe2 romanov family royal tour settings shakespeare snowdon spanish royal startling new evidence state visit sweden swedish royal family swedish royalty tips tracts trump united kingdom usa


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:47 PM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020
Jelsoft Enterprises
×