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  #3541  
Old 07-27-2018, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by kbk View Post
A hypothetical question: the 2nd Duke of Whatever acceeds to the throne through his mother, Jane Doe, but he also holds the Dukedom which he inherited from his father, John Doe. I assume the Dukedom is merging with the crown the moment he becomes King? Is it absolute and cannot pass to anyone? What about a situation when he has a daughter only, who succeeds him in the Crown but cannot inherit the Dukedom. Will it pass to his younger brother or is it already extinct because of its merge with the Crown and the brother needs to be given a new dukedom (re-creation)?

Or when the said King, former 2nd Duke, has only one son, who changed his religion and became Catholic, thus losing his rights to the throne. He cannot inherit the throne but what about the Dukedom? I assume the Dukedom needs to be re-created for him, if the King wants it to be passed on to the next generation. But maybe I'm wrong?

British law currently requires no religious test to succeed to peerages. In fact, there are well-known Catholic peers, e.g. the Dukes of Norfolk. If an ordinary duke becomes king, the peerage merges with the Crown. If the king wanted to pass it on to his son, he could recreate it for him by new LPs. At that point, it would become a royal dukedom though as the king's son would be a prince with the style of Royal Highness even if he were Catholic; his only legal "disability" would be that, as a Catholic, he could not succeed to the Crown.


The latter is actually an important point: being out of the line of succession to the Crown does not cancel the dignity of prince of the United Kingdom, which is based, under the 1917 LPs, only on kinship to a British sovereign. That is different for example from the practice in other countries like Denmark and Sweden where, in the past, princes who were excluded from the line of succession for unequal or unconsented marriages ceased to be princes and HRHs.
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  #3542  
Old 07-27-2018, 08:38 AM
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As I said, the Princess should follow an example a low-scale wedding of a minor prince not expected to work for the Firm, who Prince Richard was back in the days.
But Richard and Birgitte married at Richard’s home church. Eugenie and Jack are marrying at Eugenie’s home church as well-but Eugenie’s happens to be St George’s.
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  #3543  
Old 07-27-2018, 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The Government is convinced that it is undesireable when titles of the Royal House are used by persons who are neither members of the Royal House nor successors to the Throne."
That's a good point!


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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
British law currently requires no religious test to succeed to peerages. In fact, there are well-known Catholic peers, e.g. the Dukes of Norfolk. If an ordinary duke becomes king, the peerage merges with the Crown. If the king wanted to pass it on to his son, he could recreate it for him by new LPs. At that point, it would become a royal dukedom though as the king's son would be a prince with the style of Royal Highness even if he were Catholic; his only legal "disability" would be that, as a Catholic, he could not succeed to the Crown.
Thanks, Mbruno, I know that . I wasn't absolutely sure only about that the peerages always go extinct when their holders become Sovereigns.
One thing, a dukedom is "royal" only when its current holder is a royal.

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The latter is actually an important point: being out of the line of succession to the Crown does not cancel the dignity of prince of the United Kingdom, which is based, under the 1917 LPs, only on kinship to a British sovereign. That is different for example from the practice in other countries like Denmark and Sweden where, in the past, princes who were excluded from the line of succession for unequal or unconsented marriages ceased to be princes and HRHs.
The cases of morganatic (non-dynastic) marriages of continental princes are not analogous to the topic of our discussion as those were not based on the religion of their brides but their non-equal birth. In Britain (similar to France), there were no such thing like morganatic marriage. Since the passing of Royal Marriages Act, though, unapproved marriages of British princes were simply null and void, thus their children being born out of wedlock. Morganatic children of European princes were their legitimate children but without dynastic status.
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  #3544  
Old 07-27-2018, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kbk View Post
That's a good point!



Thanks, Mbruno, I know that . I wasn't absolutely sure only about that the peerages always go extinct when their holders become Sovereigns.
One thing, a dukedom is "royal" only when its current holder is a royal.



The cases of morganatic (non-dynastic) marriages of continental princes are not analogous to the topic of our discussion as those were not based on the religion of their brides but their non-equal birth. In Britain (similar to France), there were no such thing like morganatic marriage. Since the passing of Royal Marriages Act, though, unapproved marriages of British princes were simply null and void, thus their children being born out of wedlock. Morganatic children of European princes were their legitimate children but without dynastic status.



The focus of my argument was not on the reason for the exclusion (unequal marriage or religion), but rather on the effect of the exclusion on the title. In Denmark and Sweden, princes who forfeited their succession rights ceased to be princes and HRHs (or HHs) in the past. For example, HH Prince Ingolf of Denmark became HE Count Ingolf of Rosenborg, and HRH Prince Carl Johan of Sweden, Duke of Dalarna became Carl Johan Bernadotte (Prince Bernadotte and Count of Wisborg in Luxembourg).


By contrast, Prince Michael dropped out of the UK line of succession when he married a Catholic bride, but remained HRH Prince Michael of Kent.
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  #3545  
Old 07-27-2018, 09:54 AM
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Yes, they did lose their styles and titles. But this was because their marriages were unapproved by the monarch, because their spouses were not of Royal birth or maybe they didn't care? But not the spouses' religion. Prince Michael married a Catholic and lost his rights to the throne (now he's back in the line) but his marriage was not a morganatic one. Willem-Alexander married a Catholic (who remains one!) and is now the King.
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  #3546  
Old 07-27-2018, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kbk View Post
Yes, they did lose their styles and titles. But this was because their marriages were unapproved by the monarch, because their spouses were not of Royal birth or maybe they didn't care? But not the spouses' religion. Prince Michael married a Catholic and lost his rights to the throne (now he's back in the line) but his marriage was not a morganatic one. Willem-Alexander married a Catholic (who remains one!) and is now the King.



In the UK specifically, it is possible now under the Succession to the Crown Act 2013 to forefeit succession rights because of unconsented marriages, but, again, my reading of the 1917 LPs together with the Succession Act itself is that the loss of succession rights per se would have no immmediate effect on titles. If Harry for example had married Meghan without consent, he and his future children would have been out of the line of succession, but, in principle, he would have remained an HRH and a prince, and his children would also be HRHs and princes when Charles ascended the thone. Maybe the Queen wouldn't have made him a royal duke under those circumstances, or maybe she would have issued new LPs stripping Harry (and his descendants) of his (their future) HRH, but in the latter case, my understanding is that a new written legal instrument would be needed, or the Queen's will would have to be made known in some other way.
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  #3547  
Old 07-29-2018, 03:52 PM
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Posts discussing Dutch titles have been moved here.

Please keep this on the topic of British titles.
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  #3548  
Old 08-30-2018, 10:33 AM
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The Duke of York's titles

When Prince Andrew was created Duke of York on his wedding day, he was also created Earl of Inverness and Baron Killyleagh (as Royal Duchies always have two subsidiary titles named for places in other countries within the UK, in this case Inverness in Scotland and Killyleagh in Northern Ireland to go with the Duke title for York in England.)
I know the Duchy will once again cease to exist upon the Duke's death (as he is unlikely to ever father a legitimate son at this point), unless of course a law is passed allowing all Duchies to pass to eldest daughters.
Under the current laws, would the subsidiary titles (both, or just the Earldom) go extinct as well upon his death, or are they inheritable by his daughters? And if they are, would they go into abeyance upon his death with a 50% share between Beatrice and Eugenie, or would they pass directly to Beatrice?
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  #3549  
Old 08-30-2018, 10:53 AM
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A Duke of York is a traditional title to the second son of the King; is it probablr that the Duke of Sussex will inherit it?
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  #3550  
Old 08-30-2018, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by mathmannix View Post
When Prince Andrew was created Duke of York on his wedding day, he was also created Earl of Inverness and Baron Killyleagh (as Royal Duchies always have two subsidiary titles named for places in other countries within the UK, in this case Inverness in Scotland and Killyleagh in Northern Ireland to go with the Duke title for York in England.)
I know the Duchy will once again cease to exist upon the Duke's death (as he is unlikely to ever father a legitimate son at this point), unless of course a law is passed allowing all Duchies to pass to eldest daughters.
Under the current laws, would the subsidiary titles (both, or just the Earldom) go extinct as well upon his death, or are they inheritable by his daughters? And if they are, would they go into abeyance upon his death with a 50% share between Beatrice and Eugenie, or would they pass directly to Beatrice?
The subsidiary titles are part and parcel of the ducal title. Either they all are inherited (very unlikely, unless the law is changed) or they all merge with the crown.

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A Duke of York is a traditional title to the second son of the King; is it probablr that the Duke of Sussex will inherit it?
The Duke of York, as it was created, is only inheritable by the current Duke's "male heirs of the body", so the Duke of Sussex cannot inherit it. After Andrew dies, and if he has no male heirs, then the title will merge with the crown and be available to be created again. While it is possible that it will be granted to Harry, the most likely next recipient would be Prince Louis, since Harry already has a royal dukedom.
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  #3551  
Old 08-30-2018, 02:22 PM
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The subsidiary titles are part and parcel of the ducal title. Either they all are inherited (very unlikely, unless the law is changed) or they all merge with the crown.
Thanks! I wonder if Prince Andrew will one day be given a new title, perhaps a Marquessate, with special remainder to his daughters... (I guess the other, probably better, option would be to give titles to Beatrice and Eugenie directly if/when they get married. Or to their husbands, but I think it would be better and more "modern" to give the Princesses their own titles, plus that way they would still keep them if they got divorced.)
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  #3552  
Old 08-30-2018, 02:27 PM
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Thanks! I wonder if Prince Andrew will one day be given a new title, perhaps a Marquessate, with special remainder to his daughters... (I guess the other, probably better, option would be to give titles to Beatrice and Eugenie directly if/when they get married. Or to their husbands, but I think it would be better and more "modern" to give the Princesses their own titles, plus that way they would still keep them if they got divorced.)
why would he be given another title?
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  #3553  
Old 08-30-2018, 02:31 PM
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Thanks! I wonder if Prince Andrew will one day be given a new title
He's never going to get another title. He will be The Duke of York, and DOY alone until he dies.
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  #3554  
Old 08-30-2018, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Biri View Post
A Duke of York is a traditional title to the second son of the King; is it probable that the Duke of Sussex will inherit it?
Probably but there's also the debate of who'll become the next King. If Prince William become king, Prince Louis will hold this title while Prince George will become Prince of Wales/Duke of a Cambridge
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  #3555  
Old 08-30-2018, 04:05 PM
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He's never going to get another title. He will be The Duke of York, and DOY alone until he dies.
well he will also have the subsidiary titles.....

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Originally Posted by QueenEmpath View Post
Probably but there's also the debate of who'll become the next King. If Prince William become king, Prince Louis will hold this title while Prince George will become Prince of Wales/Duke of a Cambridge
when William becomes King, Louis will problaby be given a title on his marriage.. Its possible that he may become Duke of York, if Andrew has passed away by that time. or he may be given another title. It is far in the future...
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  #3556  
Old 08-30-2018, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by QueenEmpath View Post
Probably but there's also the debate of who'll become the next King. If Prince William become king, Prince Louis will hold this title while Prince George will become Prince of Wales/Duke of a Cambridge
There is no serious debate about who will be the next King. Charles will be the next King unless he pre-deceases his mother.

It is not a given that George will become the next Duke of Cambridge, far from it in fact. The most likely scenario of George becoming the next Duke of Cambridge is a tragic one, it will be because William died before he (William) became King and therefore George inherited the dukedom rather than it merging with the crown.

Louis may be created The Duke the York if Andrew is deceased and it is the will of the monarch.
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  #3557  
Old 08-30-2018, 04:21 PM
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If Prince William become king, Prince Louis will hold this title while Prince George will become Prince of Wales/Duke of a Cambridge
George will become the Duke of Cornwall and Rothesay at the moment William becomes king (Charlotte will become The princess Charlotte and Louis The prince Louis). The prince of Wales title will most likely be bestowed on George but there is no reason at all for him to be given an additional dukedom in the form of making him the Duke of Cambridge.

People have speculated that William might want to give Louis the Duke of Cambridge title (instead of York) upon marriage to keep that title among his direct descendents. Furthermore, it would be likely for Charlotte to become The princess royal at some point (after Anne will have passed away)
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  #3558  
Old 08-30-2018, 04:24 PM
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Also bear in mind that Charles could technically give the title Duke to York to Harry if Andrew were to die before Charles.
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  #3559  
Old 08-30-2018, 04:26 PM
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There is no serious debate about who will be the next King. Charles will be the next King unless he pre-deceases his mother.

It is not a given that George will become the next Duke of Cambridge, far from it in fact. The most likely scenario of George becoming the next Duke of Cambridge is a tragic one, it will be because William died before he (William) became King and therefore George inherited the dukedom rather than it merging with the crown.

Louis may inherit the York dukedom if Andrew is deceased and it is the will of the monarch.
he would not inherit it as it would be a new creation of the D of York title...
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  #3560  
Old 08-30-2018, 04:31 PM
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You're right, "inherit" is the incorrect word, I'll fix that sentence.
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