Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022


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thanks for the explanation. i got confused because i figured that when sophie married edward she would be a princess, but shes only a countess. i didnt know that the men kept thier origonal titles as well.

Diana wasn't technically a princess, people just called her that. So Sophie wouldn't have become a princess by marrying Edward.

"The Princess of Wales is not a princess in her own right. There have been some Princesses of Wales who were addressed as such: for example, Alexandra of Denmark and Mary of Teck were called "Princess Alexandra" and "Princess Victoria Mary", respectively. However, that was because they were already princesses when they married. Diana, Princess of Wales, was commonly called "Princess Diana" following her marriage to the Prince of Wales, but this was incorrect because she was not a princess in her own right."
 
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Diana was legally The Princess Charles and/or The Princess of Wales. She was not a princess of the blood as the York girls or Anne are.

The Princess Diana thing was a media creation.


LaRae
 
And if we traced the royal line all the way back to the first ‘King’...would he not be a commoner chosen by the people to be King? So are all royalty actually commoners just the the first one picked to be King and somehow that makes everyone royal blood? Not trying to start an argument, I really am wondering about this.
 
Diana was legally The Princess Charles and/or The Princess of Wales. She was not a princess of the blood as the York girls or Anne are.

The Princess Diana thing was a media creation.


LaRae

A good example to look at keeping Pranter's post in mind is to look at Princess Michael of Kent. This is how she is addressed as her husband, Prince Michael does not hold a peerage in the UK and therefore, Marie Christine, taking her title and style from her husband is therefore Princess Michael.
 
And if we traced the royal line all the way back to the first ‘King’...would he not be a commoner chosen by the people to be King? So are all royalty actually commoners just the the first one picked to be King and somehow that makes everyone royal blood? Not trying to start an argument, I really am wondering about this.

There is no such thing as 'royal' blood. They are simply ppl like everyone else except by chance of birth they were born into a family that was either already ruling over their area (regardless of size) or ambitious enough to gain power/title as they went along. If you look at history of the U.K. there used to be multiple 'kings' and 'countries' within the U.K. as time progressed either by marriage or conquest etc they merged into larger sections until it is today.

If you look at the eighth century there were four kingdoms, Northumbria, Mercia, East Anglia and Wessex. Prior to that I think there were as many as 7 kingdoms.


LaRae
 
"The Princess of Wales is not a princess in her own right. There have been some Princesses of Wales who were addressed as such: for example, Alexandra of Denmark and Mary of Teck were called "Princess Alexandra" and "Princess Victoria Mary", respectively. However, that was because they were already princesses when they married. [...]"

Where and by whom were Alexandra and Victoria Mary addressed as Princess Alexandra and Princess Victoria Mary while they were Princesses of Wales? As far as I am aware they, as with other wives of Princes of Wales, were addressed as HRH The Princess of Wales.
 
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Diana was legally The Princess Charles and/or The Princess of Wales. She was not a princess of the blood as the York girls or Anne are.

The Princess Diana thing was a media creation.


LaRae

Indeed, and she was also The Duchess of Rothesay in Scotland, The Duchess of Cornwall in Cornwall. The "Princess Diana" thing irritates me wild but it is better than "Meghan Markle" the gutter press sticks to... :bang:
 
I know Zara doesn't have the title of princess because her mother wanted her to live a normal life and requested she not have the title, but now as an adult, if Zara wanted a title, could she ask the Queen to give it to her?
 
I know Zara doesn't have the title of princess because her mother wanted her to live a normal life and requested she not have the title, but now as an adult, if Zara wanted a title, could she ask the Queen to give it to her?

A princess title was never an option as she isn't the daughter of a prince. She could have been a lady had her father accepted a peerage; just like her mother's cousin Lady Sarah.

And no, the queen would not just grant Zara a title out of the blue. Her only chance would have been to convince her father to accept a title (and convince the queen of offering it again) - but that would be very unlikely had they still been married and completely out of the question as her parents have been divorced for a very long time.
 
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A princess title was never an option as she isn't the daughter of a prince. She could have been a lady had her father accepted a peerage; just like her mother's cousin Lady Sarah.

And no, the queen would not just grant Zara a title out of the blue. Her only chance would have been to convince her father to accept a title (and convince the queen of offering it again) - but that would be very unlikely had they still been married and completely out of the question as her parents have been divorced for a very long time.

Ah...okay. So why is Anne called Princess Royal and not just Princess Anne?
 
Ah...okay. So why is Anne called Princess Royal and not just Princess Anne?

Because it's a title given for life to the oldest daughter of the British monarch. She can't pass it down to her daughter. It's not automatic and Elizabeth never had it because her Aunt Mary had it until she died well after Elizabeth was already The Queen and Anne was born.

It's possible that it will be awarded to Charlotte when Anne dies but again it's not automatic and it could even be George's very hypothetical daughter before it's awarded again. Anne wasn't awarded it until nearly 20 years after her Great Aunt died.
 
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Ah...okay. So why is Anne called Princess Royal and not just Princess Anne?

She was:
Princess Anne of Edinburgh (until her mother ascended the throne in 1952)
The Princess Anne (from 1952 until her marriage in 1973)
The Princess Anne, mrs Mark Phillips (from her marriage until 1987 when her mother made her 'The Princess Royal')
The Princess Royal (from 1987 - a title sometimes awarded to the eldest daughter of the monarch if the previous holder died - but it isn't automatic!)

So, princess Charlotte of Cambridge is expected to become the next Princess Royal; but for that to happen her great-aunt needs to have died, her father needs to be king and he needs to decide to grant her that title.

See Wikipedia for more information on the Princess Royal title.

I still like how William and Catherine picked the perfect name for a future Princess Royal.

1. Mary (1642-1660)
2. Anne (1727-1759)
3. Charlotte (1789-1828)
4. Victoria (1841-1901)
5. Louise (1905-1931)

6. Mary (1932-1965)
7. Anne (1987-now)
8. Charlotte?!
 
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She was:
Princess Anne of Edinburgh (until her mother ascended the throne in 1952)
The Princess Anne (from 1952 until her marriage in 1973)
The Princess Anne, mrs Mark Phillips (from her marriage until 1983 when her mother made her 'The Princess Royal')
The Princess Royal (from 1983 - a title sometimes awarded to the eldest daughter of the monarch if the previous holder died - but it isn't automatic!)

So, princess Charlotte of Cambridge is expected to become the next Princess Royal; but for that to happen her great-aunt needs to have died, her father needs to be king and he needs to decide to grant her that title.

See Wikipedia for more information on the Princess Royal title.

Oh okay, so Princess Royal isn't a downgrade, it is actually an upgrade to just being Princess because you are the oldest daughter of the King/Queen. Gotcha.
 
A princess title was never an option as she isn't the daughter of a prince. She could have been a lady had her father accepted a peerage; just like her mother's cousin Lady Sarah.

And no, the queen would not just grant Zara a title out of the blue. Her only chance would have been to convince her father to accept a title (and convince the queen of offering it again) - but that would be very unlikely had they still been married and completely out of the question as her parents have been divorced for a very long time.

And a secondary question for you. You said Zara couldn't have been a princess because she isn't the daughter of a prince. So then why are Edward's children not prince and princess? Aren't they Lord and Lady...or something along those lines?
 
Oh okay, so Princess Royal isn't a downgrade, it is actually an upgrade to just being Princess because you are the oldest daughter of the King/Queen. Gotcha.

No it's most certainly not a downgrade. It's as close to the female equivalent of being POW (which also isn't automatic) as you were likely to get before equal primogeniture came into law in 2015.
 
No it's most certainly not a downgrade. It's as close to the female equivalent of being POW (which also isn't automatic) as you were likely to get before equal primogeniture came into law in 2015.

So Edward's children are known as James, Viscount Severn and Lady Louise Windsor because their father turned down the title of Duke of Cambridge upon his wedding day. I read (and I don't know how true this is) that he did so because he is holding out for the title of Duke of Edinburgh upon his father's passing. If that happens would his children then become Prince and Princess?
 
So Edward's children are known as James, Viscount Severn and Lady Louise Windsor because their father turned down the title of Duke of Cambridge upon his wedding day. I read (and I don't know how true this is) that he did so because he is holding out for the title of Duke of Edinburgh upon his father's passing. If that happens would his children then become Prince and Princess?

James and Louise could already be HRH Prince James of Wessex and HRH Princess Louise of Wessex like his two elder brothers' children. However they are styled as children of an Earl, as was the wish of the parents. See the wish of the Duke and Duke of Sussex that their son Lord Archibald Mountbatten-Windsor, Earl of Dumbarton, is not known as such. A personal choice can overturn an official style.
 
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So Edward's children are known as James, Viscount Severn and Lady Louise Windsor because their father turned down the title of Duke of Cambridge upon his wedding day. I read (and I don't know how true this is) that he did so because he is holding out for the title of Duke of Edinburgh upon his father's passing. If that happens would his children then become Prince and Princess?

Edward was not offered DoC as far as we know. It's one of a few Royal Dukedoms that were available and uncontroversial. Sussex was another one which is why it was a high guess for both Wales boys when they married.

There's been no formal announcement but it seems likely that Edward will be re created DoE when his father dies allowing him to be a Duke and his father to pass his title on to one of his sons.

His children are already legally HRH Prince and Princess of Wessex, but their parents have chosen for them to be known by the styles of a non HRH Earl to give them a more normal, low key life. it is also thought that the reputation/lower popularity of the monarchy when they married (1999 less than 2 years after Diana's death) contributed to this decision, which was announced at their marriage.

If Edward is created DoE then it is possible Viscount Severn will take up Wessex as a subsidiary title of DoE or a different one. Lady Louise won't receive anything different.
 
Edward and his wife (it was announced around the time they married) that their children would not be HRH and would only have the courtesy titles.

They decided, with the approval of the Queen, that their future children would receive the courtesy titles of the children of an earl, rather than Prince or Princess. James is known as Viscount Severn. Louise is Lady Louise.
 
Actually I think the Queen has to pass before the DoE title can be given back out. So Charles (as King) would award that title to Edward if that is the arrangement.

I am not sure if it's possible for Edwards children to become HRH because the Queen expressed her will that they not be known as HRH. But I'm not positive about this.

Archie still has his titles, he is legally Earl Dumbarton and once Charles is King he will be an HRH. They just said at this time he is not using his titles.



LaRae.
 
There's been no formal announcement but it seems likely that Edward will be re created DoE when his father dies allowing him to be a Duke and his father to pass his title on to one of his sons. .

A title can only be passed on to the eldest son. So, Charles will add 'Duke of Edinburgh' to his titles if his father dies before his mother.

Only once he becomes king (or if he is king when his father dies), the title will merge with the crown; and will become available for recreation. Which is expected to happen to make Edward 'Duke of Edinburgh' (but he will be the 1st Duke of Edinburgh of the 4th creation).

The current line of inheritance for the ducal title is:
1. The prince of Wales
2. The duke of Cambridge
3. Prince George of Cambridge
4. Prince Louis of Cambridge
5. The duke of Sussex
6. Archie Mountbatten-Windsor
7. The duke of York
8. The earl of Wessex
9. Viscount Severn
However, if the title's holder becomes king, the title will merge with the crown and no longer be passed on to the next in line.

And if Edward is made 'Duke of Edinburgh', the line will be rather short:
1. Viscount Severn (who most likely will be known as 'Earl of Wessex' by that time)

Note: there is another thread explaining exactly what will happen with the duke of Edinburgh title.
 
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A title can only be passed on to the eldest son. So, Charles will add 'Duke of Edinburgh' to his titles if his father dies before his mother.

Only once he becomes king (or if he is king when his father dies), the title will merge with the crown; and will become available for recreation. Which is expected to happen to make Edward 'Duke of Edinburgh' (but he will be the 1st Duke of Edinburgh of the 4th creation).

Yeah I meant re created for him when it merges with the Crown, that wasn't clear from my post.

As far I as I know (and I could be completely wrong) Louise and James are still legally/technically HRH just by everyone's will they are not styled that way. But if tomorrow Lady Louise decided to go around calling herself Princess Louise I'm sure that wouldn't fly with anybody.
 
According to Buckingham Palace, the announcement that Prince Edward's children would not be Princess and Prince was legally binding.


That is what I was told when I wrote and asked BP. All that is required for a person to gain or lose a title within the royal family is for The Queen's Will to be made known and the Queen has done that with regard to Louise and James.

[...]

The letter said that Louise and James are not HRHs as The Queen's Will, that they aren't holders of that styling, has been made known via the announcement made on Edward's wedding day.

The letter is as follows:

Dear xxxxx (sorry not making public my name)

Thank you for your request for clarification about the question of the styling of the children of HRH The Earl of Wessex.

You are correct in your interpretation of the announcement made in 1999.

The Queen's Will was made known on HRH The Earl of Wessex's wedding day and as such none of his children do now, nor will in the future, have the style of HRH Prince or Princess. As Her Majesty is the fount of all honours all that is needed for a style to be given or taken, except for a substantive peerage, is that Her Majesty's Will is made known.

Thank you for your interest in this subject.

[...]



The announcement also stated the agreement to create Prince Edward Duke of Edinburgh after the deceases of both of his parents.


Title of HRH The Prince Edward

The Queen has today been pleased to confer an Earldom on The Prince Edward. His titles will be Earl of Wessex and Viscount Severn. The Prince Edward thus becomes His Royal Highness The Earl of Wessex and Miss Sophie Rhys-Jones on marriage will become Her Royal Highness The Countess of Wessex.

The Queen, The Duke of Edinburgh and The Prince of Wales have also agreed that The Prince Edward should be given the Dukedom of Edinburgh in due course, when the present title now held by Prince Philip eventually reverts to the Crown.

The Queen has also decided, with the agreement of The Prince Edward and Miss Rhys-Jones, that any children they might have should not be given the style His or Her Royal Highness, but would have courtesy titles as sons or daughters of an Earl.​


So Edward's children are known as James, Viscount Severn and Lady Louise Windsor,

Prince Edward's son is formally known as simply Viscount Severn, without "James".

https://www.royal.uk/succession

Apart from divorcées (e.g. Sarah, Duchess of York) and widows, a person who uses a title from the British peerage is not formally addressed with their first name.


Edward was not offered DoC as far as we know.

Although there was no official confirmation, there were reports in the press to that effect.


Royal wedding: Prince William asks the Queen not to make him a duke - Telegraph

"Prince Edward was going to be the Duke of Cambridge, but he watched the film Shakespeare in Love, which had a character called the Earl of Wessex," says the courtier. "He liked the sound of it and asked the Queen if he could have that instead."​


James and Louise could already be HRH Prince James of Wessex and HRH Princess Louise of Wessex like his two elder brothers' children. However they are styled as children of an Earl, as was the wish of the parents. See the wish of the Duke and Duke of Sussex that their son Lord Archibald Mountbatten-Windsor, Earl of Dumbarton, is not known as such. A personal choice can overturn an official style.

Yes, but only with the Queen's agreement. Princess Eugenie has chosen to continue styling herself Princess Eugenie of York to this day, as shown on her professional and charity websites, but several months ago the Court Circular began referring to her as Princess Eugenie, Mrs. Jack Brooksbank.


Archie still has his titles, he is legally Earl Dumbarton and once Charles is King he will be an HRH. They just said at this time he is not using his titles.

The legal Earl of Dumbarton is the Duke of Sussex (Prince Harry), but his son, who is legally untitled, will have the choice of using this title by courtesy in accordance with tradition.
 
We must be careful when we say ‘legal’ with regards to royal styles and titles.

When we say James is ‘legally’ HRH that implies he has a right that can be defended in court which he doesn’t.
 
We must be careful when we say ‘legal’ with regards to royal styles and titles.

When we say James is ‘legally’ HRH that implies he has a right that can be defended in court which he doesn’t.

The courts never ruled on whether he is legally an HRH or not, so I don’t think there is a definite answer to that question.
 
Edward and his wife (it was announced around the time they married) that their children would not be HRH and would only have the courtesy titles.

They decided, with the approval of the Queen, that their future children would receive the courtesy titles of the children of an earl, rather than Prince or Princess. James is known as Viscount Severn. Louise is Lady Louise.

So it was told to me that Anne's children couldn't be Prince or Princess because they didn't come from a male heir line. Let's just say for arguments sake that the Queen only had one child, Anne, and Anne in turn only had one child, Zara. That would make Anne 2nd in line to the throne and Zara next. Would Zara be a Princess at birth then? Or would she not have any title until she became Queen? Man this is exhausting...lol. ?
 
So it was told to me that Anne's children couldn't be Prince or Princess because they didn't come from a male heir line. Let's just say for arguments sake that the Queen only had one child, Anne, and Anne in turn only had one child, Zara. That would make Anne 2nd in line to the throne and Zara next. Would Zara be a Princess at birth then? Or would she not have any title until she became Queen? Man this is exhausting...lol. ?


Anne, only if she became Queen, could of had children be Prince/Princesses. Unless she had married Royalty (in another country). That could of been another option.


You can look to how it was with the current Queen. Some of her children were born prior to her becoming Queen.




LaRae
 
Anne, only if she became Queen, could of had children be Prince/Princesses. Unless she had married Royalty (in another country). That could of been another option.


You can look to how it was with the current Queen. Some of her children were born prior to her becoming Queen.

LaRae

So before Elizabeth became Queen her children were not considered Prince or Princess?
 
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