Questions about British Styles and Titles 1: Ending 2022

[iowabelle]

I am sure that branchg knows for sure, but I think that she is referred to properly as HRH The Princess Royal (and Mrs. Timothy Laurence is not attached).

 

[RoyalProtocol]

I am sure that branchg knows for sure, but I think that she properly referred to as HRH The Princess Royal (and Mrs. Timothy Laurence is not attached).

Thanks, I did suspect that Mrs. Timothy Laurence would not be used.

 

[branchg]

Is it correct to use Mrs. Timothy Laurence in connection with HRH The Princess Royal?

She used to be known as HRH The Princess Anne, Mrs. Mark Phillips and I was wondering if you can now use HRH The Princess Royal, Mrs. Timothy Laurence.

She is only titled HRH The Princess Royal as it takes precedence over her birthright style (HRH The Princess Anne) and any status derived from her marriage ("Mrs. Timothy Lawrence").

 

[iowabelle]

Thank you, branchg, I looked for the correct answer (and the reasoning), but I suspected you'd know! (Poor Tim, like the Duke of E., nothing but a bloody amoeba.)

 

[HRH Queen Mary]

If the Queen issues new Letters Patent, changing the LPs from 1917 limiting the title HRH Prince/Princess to only the children of the heir to the throne for instance then both Beatrice and Eugenie would lose their HRH etc. That is exactly what happened in 1917 when various Princes and Princesses lost their titles.

Diana and Sarah lost the HRH because it came with the marriage and went when the marriages ended.

The style they used after their divorces was that of a divorced woman. If Sarah remarries she will cease to be eligible to use the Duchess of York style at all as she would be the wife of another man.

The persons affected by the letters patent of 1917 didn't lose their titles. For example, HH Prince Alastair of Connaught didn't cease to be an HH or a Prince, for the letters patent was not to affect to present holders, only to the future possible holders according to the old patent.I think he was wrongly downsized to Alastair Windsor.

 

[branchg]

They did cease to hold the qualification of Highness and/or Serene Highness, along with any titles granted by the German duchies and kingdoms.

In general, great-grandchildren of Queen Victoria remained a Prince/Princess of Great Britain and Ireland as a courtesy.

 

[coco]

Thx for all these informations. Titles can be very irritating

 

[Jo of Palatine]

She is only titled HRH The Princess Royal as it takes precedence over her birthright style (HRH The Princess Anne) and any status derived from her marriage ("Mrs. Timothy Lawrence").

It makes sense - especially as she is the daughter of a duke in addition so should have been HRH The Princess Anne, Lady Anne Philips... Daughters of dukes, marquesses or earls are never just plain Mrs., they are Lady first name last (name of husband or family) name.

 

[yvr girl]

Not quite

It makes sense - especially as she is the daughter of a duke in addition so should have been HRH The Princess Anne, Lady Anne Philips... Daughters of dukes, marquesses or earls are never just plain Mrs., they are Lady first name last (name of husband or family) name.

Don't forget, her father is a ROYAL Duke. When she was born, until her mother became the Queen, she was HRH Princess Ann of Edinburgh. She was never known as Lady Ann, just as Beatrice and Eugenie are not.

 

[branchg]

Charles and Anne were HRH Prince/Princess of the UK via letters patent issued by George VI. Otherwise, as female-line grandchildren of The Sovereign, they would indeed have simply been Lord/Lady Windsor as the children of The Duke of Edinburgh until Elizabeth became Queen.

 

[yvr girl]

This is true but

Charles and Anne were HRH Prince/Princess of the UK via letters patent issued by George VI. Otherwise, as female-line grandchildren of The Sovereign, they would indeed have simply been Lord/Lady Windsor as the children of The Duke of Edinburgh until Elizabeth became Queen.

they were '...of Edinburgh' as well until their mother became Queen.

 

[Iluvbertie]

they were '...of Edinburgh' as well until their mother became Queen.

Actually Charles would have been known as the Earl of Merioneth - the second title of the Duke of Edinburgh and traditionally this title is used by the heir to a Dukedom (or other title). e.g. Earl Spencer's heir is known as Viscount Althorp and Lord Snowdon's son is known as Viscount Linley because these titles are the second title of their father's. Without the Letters Patent of 1948 Charles wouldn't have used the Lord Charles title but the Earl of Merioneth one (he still can use that of course because he is also the heir to the Dukedom of Edinburgh) but I have never seen it listed amongst his titles - another slight to his father who once famously said, when talking about the names of his descendents "I am just an ameoba"

 

[selrahc4]

. Without the Letters Patent of 1948 Charles wouldn't have used the Lord Charles title but the Earl of Merioneth one (he still can use that of course because he is also the heir to the Dukedom of Edinburgh) but I have never seen it listed amongst his titles

Actually, Chrissy, I don't think that's the case. It would be only a courtesy title, not a substansive peerage, to be used only if he held no peerage of his own (which he does, of course).

 

[Iluvbertie]

Actually, Chrissy, I don't think that's the case. It would be only a courtesy title, not a substansive peerage, to be used only if he held no peerage of his own (which he does, of course).

It is a coutesy title of course!! Silly me!

 

[yvr girl]

As a prince, Charles wouldn't use his father's secondary title

Actually Charles would have been known as the Earl of Merioneth - the second title of the Duke of Edinburgh and traditionally this title is used by the heir to a Dukedom (or other title). e.g. Earl Spencer's heir is known as Viscount Althorp and Lord Snowdon's son is known as Viscount Linley because these titles are the second title of their father's. Without the Letters Patent of 1948 Charles wouldn't have used the Lord Charles title but the Earl of Merioneth one (he still can use that of course because he is also the heir to the Dukedom of Edinburgh) but I have never seen it listed amongst his titles - another slight to his father who once famously said, when talking about the names of his descendents "I am just an ameoba"

He was HRH Prince Charles of Edinburgh from birth until his mother became Queen. A prince because of the Letters of Patent and of Edinburgh because his father was a Royal Duke.

By the way, I believe the ameoba comment was regarding the Mountbatten last name not being used.


Charles, Prince of Wales - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[branchg]

The point is what he would have been styled if his grandfather had not issued letters patent in 1948 providing the children of Elizabeth and The Duke would be HRH Prince/Princess.

In that case, Charles would have been Lord Charles Windsor, but styled Charles, Earl of Merioneth as a courtesy derived from being the eldest son of a Duke.

 

[HRH Queen Mary]

The point is what he would have been styled if his grandfather had not issued letters patent in 1948 providing the children of Elizabeth and The Duke would be HRH Prince/Princess.

In that case, Charles would have been Lord Charles Windsor, but styled Charles, Earl of Merioneth as a courtesy derived from being the eldest son of a Duke.

Sorry to disagree, but i think he would be called Lord Charles Mountbatten, deriving from his father

 

[Sister Morphine]

Sorry to disagree, but i think he would be called Lord Charles Mountbatten, deriving from his father

He would have been styled Charles, Earl of Merioneth as a courtesy title derived from his father. At the time, the family had no personal surname, other than York or Wales if that was your father's ducal or princely title (Beatrice of York, William of Wales, etc.).

 

[auntie]

I can't recall if I have asked this before, but if Harry gets married and has children whislt the Queen is still alive, and they are styled Lord/Lady etc., when Charles ascends the throne, will they be restyled as prince/ess being the grandchildren of a monarch from a male line? Or the way they are born is the way it stays?!
Another point, were there any prince/ess of UK from Qvictorias grand or great grandchildren, who wouldn't be style do today?

 

[Stefan]

I can't recall if I have asked this before, but if Harry gets married and has children whislt the Queen is still alive, and they are styled Lord/Lady etc., when Charles ascends the throne, will they be restyled as prince/ess being the grandchildren of a monarch from a male line? Or the way they are born is the way it stays?!
Another point, were there any prince/ess of UK from Qvictorias grand or great grandchildren, who wouldn't be style do today?

Yes any children Harry gets during the lifetime of the present Queen will be Lord/Lady and also the children of William with the exception of his oldest son. But if William has first a daughter and the a son the daughter will be Lady and the son Prince.

 

[branchg]

I can't recall if I have asked this before, but if Harry gets married and has children whislt the Queen is still alive, and they are styled Lord/Lady etc., when Charles ascends the throne, will they be restyled as prince/ess being the grandchildren of a monarch from a male line? Or the way they are born is the way it stays?!
Another point, were there any prince/ess of UK from Qvictorias grand or great grandchildren, who wouldn't be style do today?

Both William and Harry's children would be Lord/Lady Windsor until their father became King. If William has an eldest son, he is automatically a Royal Highness and Prince of the UK under the 1917 Letters Patent.

The Queen may also choose to issue letters patent providing William and Harry's children will enjoy the style and title of HRH Prince/Princess of the UK since they are close to becoming the grandchildren of The Sovereign after her death.

Victoria's grandchildren remained HRH Prince/Princess of GB and Ireland if so granted by HM via letters patent after George V issued the 1917 Letters Patent. They lost any German honours and titles immediately.

Victoria's great-grandchildren generally remained Prince/Princess of GB and Ireland (again if she specifically granted it via letters patent) as a courtesy, but they lost their precedence and qualification of Highness under George V.

 

[Australian]

I have a question, it may be a bit silly but anyway...it is regarding the title of Count. There is the Earl and Countess of Wessex, but why isn't Edward the Count of Wessex and Sophie is the Countess of Wessex? IS there a difference between an Earl and a Count? I have always wondered why they are not knows as the Count and Countess of Wessex. It is always Earl and Countess, why?

 

[coco]

I have a question, it may be a bit silly but anyway...it is regarding the title of Count. There is the Earl and Countess of Wessex, but why isn't Edward the Count of Wessex and Sophie is the Countess of Wessex? IS there a difference between an Earl and a Count? I have always wondered why they are not knows as the Count and Countess of Wessex. It is always Earl and Countess, why?

I think Earl and Count is the same. I looked into my German-English dictionary and both titles were translated with "Graf". Therefore it has to be the same . . .

 

[Claire]

I think Earl and Count is the same. I looked into my German-English dictionary and both titles were translated with "Graf". Therefore it has to be the same . . .

They are the same - it is just a division that was caused by the translation from Old English - there were earls and when the Romans came over the only word they could place to it that was similar was count. It is a latin, old english mess.

 

[Claire]

Here is an odd one for you.

It was announced after the wedding of the Earl of Wessex that his children with the Countess of Wessex would not receive the title of HRH. I don't want to get into debate of whether their was or wasn't a letter patent. But a friend of mine noted that as the announcement was made in regard to the children of TRH The Earl and Countess of Wessex, what about when they became the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh? Will another announcement need to be made, or will Louise suddenlty get a title overnight?

 

[Jo of Palatine]

Here is an odd one for you.

It was announced after the wedding of the Earl of Wessex that his children with the Countess of Wessex would not receive the title of HRH. I don't want to get into debate of whether their was or wasn't a letter patent. But a friend of mine noted that as the announcement was made in regard to the children of TRH The Earl and Countess of Wessex, what about when they became the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh? Will another announcement need to be made, or will Louise suddenlty get a title overnight?

Depends on the letters patent that king Charles will issue then. Because as long as he is not the king, he will inherit the dukedom of Edinburgh from his father. When he becomes king, the title will merge with the crown and then he can recreate it for his younger brother. In the letters patent there will surely be a paragraph concerning the title of the children of the new duke of Edinburgh.

At the moment they are all playing around with styles: Charles' wife is HRH The Princess of Wales, but let herself be styled as HRH The Duchess of Cornwall.
HRH Princess Louise of Wessex is styled simply as Her Ladyship, Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor.

 

[wbenson]

The daughter of a non-royal Duke is styled the same as the daughter of a non-royal Earl. So long as Edward and Sophie make it clear their children aren't going to use the styles of Royal Highness and Prince(ss), Louise won't be called anything different. Neither would a possible female child. A possible male child would go from being Viscount Severn to Earl of Wessex if they don't use HRH and Prince.

 

[RoyalProtocol]

HRH Princess Louise of Wessex is styled simply as Her Ladyship, Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor.

Her Ladyship is a creation of fiction, HRH Princess Louise of Wessex is simply The Lady Louise Mountbatten-Windsor.

Another non related question: If Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother had remarried (a severly doubtful situation) would she have become simply Mrs. John Smith, LG LT etc. or would letters have been issued to allow her to retain a part of her title eg. HM The Queen Mother, Mrs. John Smith Etc. which sound silly, also what would have happened if she had married a member of a foreign royal family.

 

[Von Schlesian]

Another non related question: If Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother had remarried (a severely doubtful situation) would she have become simply Mrs. John Smith, LG LT etc. or would letters have been issued to allow her to retain a part of her title eg. HM The Queen Mother, Mrs. John Smith Etc. which sound silly, also what would have happened if she had married a member of a foreign royal family.

Had HM Queen Elizabeth, The Queen Mother remarried (which as you say, it a severly if not entirely doubtful situation), letters would certainly have been issued for an appropriate style eg: HM Queen Elizabeth, Mrs. John Smith (I am using the example of HRH Princess Alexandra, The Hon. Lady Ogilvy).

As to marrying a member of a foreign royal family, I imagine the style of HM Queen Elizabeth, would reflect that of Her Majesty's hypothetical husband eg: HM Queen Elizabeth of Denmark, HRH Princess Elizabeth, Duchess of Västerbotten, or HSH Princess Elizabeth of Liechtenstein etc

 

[BeatrixFan]

Indeed. Wasn't there a rumour that she considered marrying King Olav V of Norway? She would have been Her Majesty The Queen again if she had. In Norway at least. Not sure about the Princess title - can a Queen be demoted or is it once a queen always a queen as Elton John would have us believe?