Possible Scottish Independence and the Monarchy

[Cris M]

I doubt The Duke of Bavaria wants to be King of Scots. His Royal Highness is happy living quietly in Germany with his partner.

I know nothing about Infanta Alicia.

 

[Cory]

Infanta Alicia is very old but her grandson, Prince Pedro(Peter) is very respected.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Just a side note - the current law in Scotland - as elsewhere in the UK - does ban a Roman Catholic from being the monarch so before we start talking about Roman Catholics being offered the possible separate crown of Scotland there will need to be changes in the laws for Scotland regarding the church and the crown to allow a RC to inherit.

I see no reason for Scotland not to continue with The Queen if that is what the majority want - and if they do want their own monarch they could just as easily ask someone like Anne to become Queen of Scotland - don't know if she would accept of course but...

 

[cepe]

As I said in my earlier post, the article from the Express (post#1) completely ignores the religious aspects which just reinforces my view that it's a mischief piece.

I have been told today that somewhere buried in the 670 pages of the White Paper it very clear that independence would mean Scotland becoming the 17th Commonwealth Realm.

HEALTH WARNING: This document is written - obviously - by those wanting an independent Scotland. Some of the financial aspects have already been "discredited".

Scotland's Referendum 2014 | Scotland’s Future – Your Guide to an Independent Scotland

 

[Cory]

The Descendants of Queen Mary IV and III

 

[Cory]

Religion has nothing to do with the Scottish Throne!

 

[cepe]

Religion has nothing to do with the Scottish Throne!

Have a look at Iluvbertie's v informative post #31

 

[Cory]

The laws of the UK won't really apply to an Independent Scotland.

 

[cepe]

The laws of the UK won't really apply to an Independent Scotland.

They wont change everything. Religion is a sensitive subject in Scotland and IMO, any government will not want to make it an issue.

 

[Cory]

The Catholics are much more numerous than in England and represent the traditional religion of Scotland and of the Stuarts.

 

[cepe]

The Catholics are much more numerous than in England and represent the traditional religion of Scotland and of the Stuarts.

I'm not going to debate religion on this forum but the Church of Scotland which is Presbyterian (Protestant) is the recognised national church of Scotland. There is no state church, ie linked to government.

According to the 2011 Census:-

No religion 36.7%
Church of Scotland 32.4%
Roman Catholic 15.9%

 

[Ish]

The Catholics are much more numerous than in England and represent the traditional religion of Scotland and of the Stuarts.

Saying that the Scottish are more likely to be Catholic than the English are doesn't mean that the Scottish are more likely to be Catholic than they are to be Protestant. There might be more Scottish Catholics than English Catholics, but there are also more Scottish Protestants than Scottish Catholics.

Also, if you're going to say that a religious denomination is the "traditional" religion of an area, consider time periods. Catholicism may have been the traditional religion of the Stuarts, but that was prior to the reign of James VI/I. Likewise, Catholicism may have been the traditional religion of Scotland as a whole, but that was also prior to the Protestant Reformation - which, at that point, it was also the traditional religion of England. 400+ years later things have changed.

 

[Roslyn]

The Catholics are much more numerous than in England and represent the traditional religion of Scotland and of the Stuarts.

I knew a Scottish Catholic woman at uni. She told me that being a Catholic in Scotland is much more than just being a member of the minority religion; it is deeply ingrained in the psyche of those concerned and is very important to them and based on what she told me I suspect that it would not be wise to make it an issue. However when it comes to a decision as to whether or not to remain a Realm with the English monarch as the Scottish monarch, I imagine the issue will be agitated because I can't see the Scottish Catholics agreeing to have a monarch/head of state who cannot be a Catholic. It's one thing to put up with an existing regime under which that is a fact of life, but quite another to agree to introducing a new one which retains that element when it is objectionable on a visceral level.

I look forward to seeing how this situation progresses.

 

[Roslyn]

The oldest realms have, as I understand it, never explicitly established a separate monarchy. They gained independence incrementally and the separateness of the crown went along with that.

In a sense we did establish a separate monarchy in the sense that our various States, which at the time were British Colonies, agreed to form a new, independent, country which had the British monarch as our monarch. There was never any real doubt that the British monarch would be our Head of State though. Since then we have gradually and increasingly cut the apron strings, but the decision to do so was generally mutual, some impetus coming from each side at different times.

 

[fearghas]

In a sense we did establish a separate monarchy in the sense that our various States, which at the time were British Colonies, agreed to form a new, independent, country which had the British monarch as our monarch. There was never any real doubt that the British monarch would be our Head of State though. Since then we have gradually and increasingly cut the apron strings, but the decision to do so was generally mutual, some impetus coming from each side at different times.

Yes the Queen is the Monarch of Australia but she is also legally, the Queen of the State Of Queensland. I don't know if this also applies to other states or is just an anachronism of this particular state.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Yes the Queen is the Monarch of Australia but she is also legally, the Queen of the State Of Queensland. I don't know if this also applies to other states or is just an anachronism of this particular state.

That is actually a matter in dispute.

In the 1970s the Premier of Queensland attempted to legally make The Queen, Queen of Queensland but lost the High Court battle on the issue in 1974 in the Queen of Queensland Case. Then the Australia Act, in 1986, removed the right of British politicians to interfere in the Australian states - particularly over the issue of the appointment of State Governors. This now leads to the view amongst some constitutional experts that The Queen is separately Queen of each of the States as well as the Commonwealth of Australia.

This matter is being discussed behind closed doors by said experts before attempting to pass the Succession to the Crown Act so that either all the states pass it as well as the federal government, thus enshrining The Queen as Queen of Qld, NSW, Vic, Tas, SA and WA as well as Australia or just by the Federal government thus ending that argument.

The reason for doing it behind closed doors is to try and settle it without going to the High Court but if they can't get agreement then that is what will happen.

 

[Roslyn]

Yes the Queen is the Monarch of Australia but she is also legally, the Queen of the State Of Queensland. I don't know if this also applies to other states or is just an anachronism of this particular state.

The relationship between Her Majesty and the States is a complex one and has had its controversial moments. Her Majesty is still the head of the Executive Government of New South Wales and, as far as I am aware, all the other States. She has a direct relationship with the States quite distinct from her role as Queen of Australia. Section 7 of the Australia Acts 1986 gives the states the power to advise the Queen directly on state matters, "the same power that was regarded by Whitlam as dangerously increasing the status of the states and was regarded by the British Government as establishing independent Realms and Crowns". Anne Twomey† "The States, the Commonwealth and the Crown—the Battle for Sovereignty*" – Parliament of Australia

ETA, having now seen Iluvbertie's post: I said it was controversial! Though I want to see Australia become a republic, part of me hopes it doesn't happen soon because I really enjoy this anomaly and all the legal arguments to which it has given rise.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It is this issue that is why a friend of mine, who is a constitutional historian, believes that we could become a Republic at Federal level but still be constitutional monarchies at state level - or vice versa...

Back to Scotland .......

 

[HereditaryPrincess]

I would think that it would make more sense if the Duke of Bavaria, who is the Jacobean Claimant to the English throne, would become the Scottish monarch if Scotland ever does choose to become independent and have a separate monarchy. The Duchess of Alba is an interesting choice, but we seem to have forgotten that she comes from an illegitimate branch of the House of Stuart (the House of FitzJames), so she might not become the Queen of Scotland if they decide to keep the "legitimate Kings only" rule. Although, this might not have an impact, because she herself is legitimate.

Weren't there comments a while ago about Princess Anne being favoured as Queen of Scotland if the country decided to have a separate monarchy?

 

[cepe]

Why on earth would a newly independent country choose as a Head of State a woman who is not Scottish and has never lived there?

 

[Skippyboo]

Why not choose a women who is half Scottish and spends several months a year in Scotland? She also has previous experience being Queen -the Queen.

 

[Cris M]

If Scotland becomes independent and retain The Queen as Head of State, will she need a scottish Governor General or Her Majesty will be able to take care of scottish affairs from London (which I think it's very possible and more pratical)?

 

[tommy100]

So far Alex Sammond has always maintained that the Queen (QE2) and her successors would be Head of State of an Independent Scotland. How the Scottish people would feel about this especially years on after independence we would have to wait and see.
I imagine the Queen would be able to keep on tip of any day to day paperwork though she might decide to appoint a Governor General- personally I could see Princess Anne doing this as she seems to be particularly fond of Scotland (Charles is as well but is heir and Prince of Wales).

 

[Cory]

The Duke of Bavaria does not seem interested to be King of Scotland anyway.

 

[tommy100]

Personally I can't see the Scottish people having fought for independence deciding to appoint a foreign stranger as Sovereign.

 

[Mariel]

The Duke of Bavaria is very old. His heir is younger, isn't it his brother Max, who is the father of the wife of the ruler of Leichtenstein, Sophie? Sophie's eldest child was born in London while her husband was working there, so he is born in England...but that is not actually the same as Scots born, but closer than some. I think he is about 20. He would look good in kilts. Also, what may be little known is that his grandma, Duke Max's wife, has a Douglas maiden name. There are quite a few Douglases residing in Sweden, I read, where she came from, and traditionally have served the Swedish monarchy.

It's interesting the Catholic/Scots emotional connection. I understand that, as a person descended from Stuart-line ancestors in medieval times. I am "unchurched" but sympathetic to this point of view. Not at all drawn to the John Knox type of thinking, which had an emotionally minus effect on young King James I/VI of England and Scotland, although it gave him a great background of Biblical knowledge...King Iacobus, I think is the Latin way of referring to James. He should have been called King Jacob to be Biblically neat.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I could see The Queen, if a GG is needed appointing someone such as The Duke of Rothesay for six months of the year and then The Earl of Strathearn for the other six months. When The Duke of Rothesay moves up the line and becomes HM The King then The Earl of Strathearn, who would then be The Duke of Rothesay could take over more permanently and maybe share the position with the Earl of Inverness and the Earl of xxxx (whatever title Harry has) along with the newly created Duke of Edinburgh (assuming the 1999 intention is fulfilled).

For those who don't get the titles used above - split the position between Charles and William and when Charles becomes King have William split it with Harry, Andrew and Edward (until George has a Scottish title of his own). It would mean a higher profile for the secondary titles.

Another possibility could be to send Anne there - but I don't think she would like the restriction but... a job for Beatrice maybe - where she can help the family, earn a living etc.

Then again - The Queen can probably manage to continue to operate as she does now however that lowers Scotland in terms of being a separate realm.

 

[Roslyn]

If a GG is needed, I would have thought that it would be more palatable for the Scottish people if the GG were to be one of their own, not a member of the English RF.

 

[Ish]

Regarding the GG, when Ireland was a realm it had a GG, so it would reason that as an independent realm Scotland should also have a GG.

While I personally have no problem with the idea of a member of the BRF, particularly a higher up one, serving as a GG - in any realm, as I can see how such an occurrence could actually help to foster a relationship between the royal family and the realms outside of Britain - I do think it's important for the GG to serve for a number of years during which he or she lives primarily in the realm, develops relationships with the realm's prime minister and other politicians, and helps further causes that are important to that realm. I don't think Charles or William or whoever could really service an independent Scottish realm if they only served as GG for half a year before switching out with someone else.

That said, if Scotland were to remain a country within the UK, it might be beneficial then for something of the kind of relationship Bertie described to be developed. It seems like Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Wales each get neglected a bit in terms of their relationship with the BRF (especially considering that they're actually a part of Britain), and it might better Britain and help foster more of an inclusive feeling if the BRF was seen working for them as well as for England.

 

[Skippyboo]

In most other realms, the GG is appointed by the Queen thru the prime minister's advice.