Order of Precedence 1: Ending 2022

[branchg]

But after they divorced, while still able to keep her title, Diana, Princess of Wales, no one was technically required to bow or curtsey to her, but since she was no longer an HRH or a quote one quote member of the Royal Family, she would technically have to curtsey to other HRH members. The same would apply to the Duchess of York now.

I know she is the mother of a future king, but that HRH determines who gets the curtsies and bows.....if Sophie divorced, she loses her status, no more curtsies to her.

Yes, you are correct. In general, however, the Palace has made clear it is no longer necessary to curtsey or bow to the royal family, even the Queen, if people so desire. Given a modern society, these questions of protocol have been greatly relaxed since the reign of George V or even George VI.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Abosolutely, I know that, but thank you for pointing it out. I believe that was a decision made after one of the Way Ahead meetings she had with her husband, children, and a few courtiers and advisors..

Some of the curtsies and bows also reflect a generational difference as well as a moncharchist vs republican view.

 

[Esmeralda]

BTW..a good book on his mother is "Alice, Princess Andrew of Greece" written by Hugo Vickers.

I've been thinking of getting that book! I'm glad you think it's good. If it's got good research and lots of information I might go ahead and buy it.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

It was excellent!! From all acounts, putting aside her stays in an institution, she was a lovely person, a bit eccentric, but had a caring heart on her and seems to have had a good sense of humor.

It is filled with stories about her growing up, marriage, being a princess in Greece, exiles, tragedy in deaths of her daughters, grandchildren....just really informative to read.

Another one is called Victoria's Daughters...I cannot remember who wrote that one.

Sorry..I know this is off the topic of the post, so I apologize to all.

 

[Elspeth]

No problem. Off-topic digressions happen; as long as they're short, they aren't a big deal. Anyway, discussions of books are always interesting! I agree with you about the Princess Alice book, btw!

OK, back to your regularly scheduled discussion...

 

[Lady Marmalade]

Thank you Elspeth!!

BTW....I was watching an episode of Changing Rooms on BBC America and one of the women had the same first name...which too me is so unique.

I do think that Camilla being ranked number four is not an affront to her, but really is just reflecting the title she and Prince Charles designated for her.

I have a feeling she does even really care....I think she is just thrilled to have finally married him they could have ranked her after The Countess of St. Andrews and she would not have cared.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

oops...meant to say does not even really care...I type too fast sometimes..

 

[iowabelle]

Three of us have excellent taste in avatars!

 

[Elspeth]

Yes, it is getting a bit repetitive in here, isn't it?

Could one of you perhaps add a tasteful red carnation or something?

 

[Lady Marmalade]

yes....we all do have excellent taste...we all chose her in her most elegant look.

 

[branchg]

I do think that Camilla being ranked number four is not an affront to her, but really is just reflecting the title she and Prince Charles designated for her.

I have a feeling she does even really care....I think she is just thrilled to have finally married him they could have ranked her after The Countess of St. Andrews and she would not have cared.

This is the real issue. I too believe Camilla was very happy to finally wed Prince Charles and become an honest woman, instead of in the shadows somewhere. Times have changed after all and the death of the Queen Mother finally lifted the shadow of the Abdication from the whole issue.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

She absolutely glows now...radiantly.

 

[Lady Marmalade]

I wonder if truth be told any of these women or men in any of these royal families really give two cents about their rank. I guarantee you the younger generations could care less where they are listed officially or unofficially.

 

[Elspeth]

I have a strong suspicion that Princess Michael cares more than somewhat. But on the other hand, she's been unpopular with other royals, both family and in-laws (I gather there's no love lost between her and the Duchess of Gloucester), and the royal family, along with most of the aristocracy, have disdain down to a fine art. It must have been very frustrating to spend your time being subtlely despised by your husband's entire family and being made acutely aware of your lowly status in the pecking order all the time.

I think you're quite right that the younger ones don't care nearly as much. Probably a healthier attitude. Queen Mary is probably spinning in her grave!

 

[Lady Marmalade]

That is hysterical Elspeth, and I could not agree with you more!

She would be the only one if anyone who would care save Princess Margaret.

I can just picture the look on Prince Harry's face as they are explaining the Order of Precedence to him....he would be like, "you have got to be kidding me?"

 

[branchg]

Princess Michael has a strong personality and is highly intelligent, but she also is known to be high-handed and pompous at times. She certainly has not been very popular with the other members of the royal family and her questionable business activities and personal life has been another point of contention.

The royal way of life has been declining for decades now, although both Prince Charles and Prince Andrew are known to be sticklers for protocol and formalities. I think the key issue is for the next generation to be closer to the people, while still maintaining their duty to the Crown, but perhaps in a less formal manner. It will be interesting to see how they pull it off.

 

[tiaraprin]

I've been thinking of getting that book! I'm glad you think it's good. If it's got good research and lots of information I might go ahead and buy it.

Hugo Vickers' book on Princess Alice of Greece is a wonderfully written, well thought out book. I highly recommend it. It gives a real look at the woman who is Prince Philip's mother. From her birth to her burial in Israel as a Righteous Gentile next to her Aunt Elisabeth on the Mount of Olives, Hugo Vickers' is quite thorough.

 

[branchg]

Hugo Vickers' book on Princess Alice of Greece is a wonderfully written, well thought out book. I highly recommend it. It gives a real look at the woman who is Prince Philip's mother. From her birth to her burial in Israel as a Righteous Gentile next to her Aunt Elisabeth on the Mount of Olives, Hugo Vickers' is quite thorough.

I have this book as well and highly recommend it. Wonderfully researched and Vickers was able to interview Prince Philip for it.

 

[margotantoinette]

here is a question that hopefully someone can answer: say hypothetically speaking Harry marries somone like Madeleine of Sweden who is a Royal Highness and a Princess in her own right. Now, my understanding of titles would hold that she would be correctly referred to as Princess Madeleine and not Princess Harry because she is an HRH on her own, as the daughter of a sovereign. So where does this put her in the line of precedence? I would assume that she would be behind Camilla as Princess of Wales and wife of the heir to the throne, but if William marries a commoner, would a double princess and a princess of royal blood to boot outrank William's wife? I'm sure in family precedence she wouldn't but I'm more interested in the official precedence. It would be interesting if Harry's wife actually ended up with a higher precedence than him, because afterall, he is the grandson of a soveriegn, while Madeleine would be the daughter of blood royal like Anne. So hopefully someone who knows more about this could help me out.

 

[Oppie]

She would have the same precedence as the wife of Prince Henry regardless of who Prince William marries. The precedence for this is Lady Alice (Duchess of Gloucester) having precedence over Princess Marina (Duchess of Kent). The only difference in that case would be if William and Harry aren't given dukedoms William's wife would be Princess William, she would remain Princess Madeline.

 

[Elspeth]

Well, when George V's youngest son married Princess Marina of Greece, she followed her sisters in law the Duchesses of York and Gloucester, who were daughers of Scottish nobles, in the royal precedence. The difference was that she was still Princess Marina whereas the other two didn't become Princess Elizabeth or Princess Alice.

The way the Queen has faffed around with the Order of Precedence means that it's probably anybody's guess. I mean, if William marries Kate Middleton and Harry marries Princess Beatrice, who knows who'll end up where.

 

[branchg]

The official order of precedence for female members of the royal family is based on line of succession to the throne, whether your husband's place or held in your own right. So, the closer you are to being Queen, the higher your precedence. It has nothing to do with your title or birth status.

So, Harry's wife would follow William's wife who would follow Camilla. Although their rank is derived from their marriages, Harry and William's wives would come before the princesses of the blood royal who are within the line of succession in their own right.

In general, the royal order of precedence is generally quite different and usually the princesses of the blood royal take precedence ahead of princesses by marriage, although usually the wife of the heir to the throne take precedence ahead of all other females other than The Queen or a Dowager Queen.

 

[branchg]

The way the Queen has faffed around with the Order of Precedence means that it's probably anybody's guess. I mean, if William marries Kate Middleton and Harry marries Princess Beatrice, who knows who'll end up where.

Officially, The Queen has designated The Duchess of Cornwall as coming after The Princess Royal and Princess Alexandra, but so far anyway, it seems Camilla usually follows The Queen at royal occasions as well.

This may be a voluntary concession on the part of Princess Anne and Alexandra to Camilla as the wife of the heir to the throne, just as Diana was granted the same concession by Princess Margaret and Princess Anne (who both came before her in the royal order of precedence while she was married).

 

[LOSSEAN]

I did read an article that the order of precedence of royal ladies had changed in favour of those of the blood royal. I didn't think much of it because I just assumed that it was in response to the experience the BRF had with Princess Diana and the former Duchess of York. Here today, gone tomorrow.

 

[kelly9480]

The new order of precedence is only for private family occasions, so we're unlikely to ever see it in action in public.

 

[BeatrixFan]

The Order of Precedence changes quite a few times a year with deaths etc because it goes through Dukes, Dukes' Wives, Dukes' children, Duke's children's wives etc etc. When one drops out, another steps up. It's only really Royal changes we hear about.

 

[Zonk]

Does the Order of Percedence really matter at all? I mean...in public when the royal family leaves a service (for example), it appears as if they follow the line of succession when the leave.

 

[magnik]

Sorry I'm little lost.

Can anyone tell me what if Will or Harry would marry a princess of the blood? What will be her rank, order of precedence etc.?

 

[Elspeth]

That might be interesting. If Harry marries a princess and William doesn't, goodness knows what the precedence will look like.

 

[Jo of Palatine]

That might be interesting. If Harry marries a princess and William doesn't, goodness knows what the precedence will look like.

Which princesses do you see that might lead to such questions? Madeleine of Sweden comes to mind but apart from her? IMHO it would take a princess from a reigning house and I don't see one on the horizon. Even if Harry waits some more years and falls for Mako or Kako of Japan, they both would loose their status on marrying - and why should the queen bother if the princesses' own country has nothing against degrading them to the position of commoner on marriage?