Order of Precedence 1: Ending 2022


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It's just a list! People need to calm down. Do people honestly believe Kate will curtsey to Beatrice and Eugenie. For those moaning about the wording "Blood Princesses", they are aren't they not "Blood Princesses". :flowers:
 
Both Camilla and Kate take their husband's precedence when they are with them. It's because their place and rank is derived strictly from their marriage to them and not by anything else. In case of Princess Anne and other royal princesses by birth, their rights, rank and place in the order of precedence come from their birth, just like the husbands' of Camilla and Kate. Theoretically, Princess Eugenie married to her cousin Prince William (well, it would not be unusual in this family ;) would outrank her elder sister because of the rank held by her husband. But, according to the rules of Private Precedence or without her husband in attendance, she should place herself after Beatrice.
Camilla and Kate could be even the Byzantine Empress and the Empress of the Holy Roman Empire in the future but it really does not matter today. Their husbands are who they are now and they are their present wives and have rank and precedence according to that status. Period.

Well, every country have their peculiarities.

Having said that. Too bad if a high ranking royal suddenly finds him/herself demoted in relation to a newcommer in the family. They just have to learn to live with it. Like thousands of other royals before them.

I don't envy the men who are going to marry Beatrice and Eugenie. :sad: Most men have problems enough remembering their own birthdays let alone details about everyone else - in fact that's why we marry, so that our wives can keep track of that - but imagine standing there trying to remember: "What am I in relation to whoever is standing in front of me and when should I bow or not? Hmm, better always give way, just to be on the safe side. I seriously need a beer"!
 
Confused? Don't worry!, like someone in another thread said, there's (probably) an app for that!!
 
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I've been reading through the thread trying to makes heads or tails of the order of precedence and whether it makes sense.

Several things come to mind;

I have an issue with woman who married into a royal family having to curtsy to princesses by birth. I personally don't care on behalf of the women themselves, I won't lose sleep over Kate curtsying to Beatrice or some such nonsense. However, it sends a message to the public that those of "royal blood" are more important than those who just married in, the commoners. That's arcane and out of place with 21st century notions of fairness. Being royal is a privilege (which comes with a fair share of duties). It is NOT a right in the 21st century. I personally think that members of the BRF should curtsy to the Queen and Princess of Wales. If you don't do away with the rest of it, I also think that members of younger generations, Kate, Beatrice, etc, should curtsy to Alexandra and Anne, or even the Duchess of Gloucester - those women who have given a life of service to the BRF. In terms of status, Kate, Beatrice, Eugenie, Zara should all be on equal footing.

Monarchist as I am, some parts of royal existence is just utter nonsense. This is one of them.

Family tradition is important.

Kate Must Curtsey to 'Blood Princesses' | ABC News Blogs - Yahoo!
 
:previous: Yeah, but no matter what way they greet, be it in a form of a bow or a kiss, it's still pretty confusing.

Camilla is married to the heir, why not let her have the place in the Order of Precendence similar to the place her husband has?

The same thing in regards to Kate, let her have a place similar to her husbands. Period.

Both these ladies will eventually stand beside a future monarch, so it's only a matter of time before they take precedence before everybody else anyway.

Both Camilla and Kate enjoy the same precedence as their husbands in the Official Precedence list. That means that Camilla, as wife of the Heir to the Throne, enjoys the highest precedence in the Kingdom among women, after the Queen herself. Kate, as wife of the Queen's grandson, comes after Camilla, Sophie and Anne - just as William comes after Prince Charles, Prince Andrew and Prince Edward.

The Official Precedence list is pretty straightforward and not at all confusing. It's the Private one (that is at will of the Sovereign) that confuses everyone; theoretically, Anne, Beatrice, Eugenie and Alexandra (as Princesses by birth) are above Camilla, Sophie and Kate (Princesses by marriage). That is, unless they are with their husbands, in which case they take precedence from them and still outrank Princesses by birth.

However, just to confuse everyone more, the Buckingham Palace appears to operate some other Precedence list whereby Camilla is first (after the Queen), followed by Kate (and not Sophie), whereas William comes before his uncles.

In short, I wish the Private and Official Precedence lists matched; it would make everything so much easier.
 
The 'Blood Princesses' thing bugs me. What really, really bugs me though is that there's one order of precedence when it's just women in the room, but as soon as someone with a penis enters the room it all magically changes! If we're now moving away from male primogeniture in the succession we should move away from this silliness too. Camilla and Kate have the same place in the order of precedence wherever the male members of the royal family happen to be at any given moment.
 
The 'Blood Princesses' thing bugs me. What really, really bugs me though is that there's one order of precedence when it's just women in the room, but as soon as someone with a penis enters the room it all magically changes! If we're now moving away from male primogeniture in the succession we should move away from this silliness too. Camilla and Kate have the same place in the order of precedence wherever the male members of the royal family happen to be at any given moment.
It's not just men versus women: think of Sweden - Prince Daniel takes his rank and precedence from Crown Princess Victoria.
Similarly, if succession rules are changed to Equal Primogeniture in Britain, then should William and Kate's first-born be a girl, her husband will one day take his rank and precedence from her, and so his status will depend on her presence as well.
 
It's not just men versus women: think of Sweden - Prince Daniel takes his rank and precedence from Crown Princess Victoria.
Similarly, if succession rules are changed to Equal Primogeniture in Britain, then should William and Kate's first-born be a girl, her husband will one day take his rank and precedence from her, and so his status will depend on her presence as well.

Yes, but the difference between Sweden and UK is that Daniel retains his position, even when Victoria is not around.
Not to mention that the SRF are hardly concerned about a Private Order of Precedence, when among themselves. I believe they just kiss eachother on the cheek when they meet.
 
Yes, but the difference between Sweden and UK is that Daniel retains his position, even when Victoria is not around.
Not to mention that the SRF are hardly concerned about a Private Order of Precedence, when among themselves. I believe they just kiss eachother on the cheek when they meet.
Camilla and Kate retain their positions when Charles and William aren't around on official functions as well. Now that you said it, I don't actually know a circumstance (on official events) when their rank or precedence would suddenly drop or climb up because of their husbands' presence or absence.

And British royals aren't all that stiff at all; they also mostly greet each other with hugs and kisses. :)
Basically, the precedence is only important for official (mostly, state) events, when arrival and sitting arrangements are important (same as in any royal family), not to mention the ever important "who curtsies to whom?" question. I strongly doubt any of the royals actually remembers private precedence when they are just among themselves. Which is what makes the private order of precedence so obsolete and unnecessary.
 
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The 'Blood Princesses' thing bugs me. What really, really bugs me though is that there's one order of precedence when it's just women in the room, but as soon as someone with a penis enters the room it all magically changes! If we're now moving away from male primogeniture in the succession we should move away from this silliness too. Camilla and Kate have the same place in the order of precedence wherever the male members of the royal family happen to be at any given moment.

YES!! Absolutely! :D
 
Camilla and Kate retain their positions when Charles and William aren't around on official functions as well. Now that you said it, I don't actually know a circumstance (on official events) when their rank or precedence would suddenly drop or climb up because of their husbands' presence or absence.

And British royals aren't all that stiff at all; they also mostly greet each other with hugs and kisses. :)
Basically, the precedence is only important for official (mostly, state) events, when arrival and sitting arrangements are important (same as in any royal family), not to mention the ever important "who curtsies to whom?" question. I strongly doubt any of the royals actually remembers private precedence when they are just among themselves. Which is what makes the private order of precedence so obsolete and unnecessary.

Evidentally, it is still necessary for HM, as it does exist.
 
padams2359 said:
If say Prince Harry forgot something in QE2's desk and later he runs into retrieve it? He just walks in to her study, thinking it was empty, just as the women gathered and they are mid heavy cursing. There is a man there, do they have to start all over again? Times headline, "Princess All Sent Home With Minor Cursting Pile Up.". Apparently two princess whacked heads as they thought they had to Cursty to the other. Mayhem ensued.

Heavy cursing. I love it. . (I know it's a typo ). Smile.
 
I meant them all simulatiously quickly curtsying to the proper person to get the whole process over with quickly. Heavy Curtsying session. And thinking about it, the whole thing is done in front of the Queen, at say, the arrival at Sandringham at Christmas, and Balmoral in late summer, then not done again for the remainder of the holiday.
 
Does Timothy Laurence have to bow to everyone, even his children who hold no title?
 
US Royal Watcher said:
Does Timothy Laurence have to bow to everyone, even his children who hold no title?

he has no children. Peter and Zara are Mark Phillips and Princess Anne's children.
 
I doubt that Timothy would bow to Peter and Zara since they hold no titles and aren't royal.
 
he has no children. Peter and Zara are Mark Phillips and Princess Anne's children.
Sorry, I meant step-children. I guess he would have to bow to the York daughters, but would he have to bow to Sophie and Catherine?
 
:previous:Yes, since they are both royal because of their marriages.
 
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To bow or curtsey, and when, certainly has raised our conscience. The need to wait for another to go first before being allowed to enter a room or go down a staircase, depending on who you are, and whom you are with or who they are with, seems so complicated.
Remembering to stop and look both ways is a good rule to follow before crossing a road or, apparently, the royalty.
 
I agree with the earlier poster who suggested that they make an app for this. It would save so much time! I also agree with Artemesia that there is no reason for 2 Orders of Precedence (public and private) and with EIIR that the idea of there being one for men and one for women is stupid. It's not as if they Queen will cry "Off with their head! if Kate refuses/forgets to curtsey to Eugenie, or Sophie forgets/refuses to curtsey to Princess Anne for example.
 
I wonder if the royals have to carry a cheat sheet on them to consult with all these variable scenarios! "Uh, oh, Princess Beatrice is in the room and Hubby's not with me, let me consult the notes!":D

Oh, that would be my way of dealing with something like that :lol:. The order is almost as confusing as the rules in the braille and nemeth codes (the codes that are used for literary and math transcriptions respectively). I have cheat sheets for both, and I'm not afraid to whip them out, even when a supervisor is in close proximity (happened quite a lot during student teaching). Good thinking, Baroness :D.

Someone should set up a system according to a deck of cards and what beats what. Give them all little pins to wear and if one's pin beats another, the lower person curtseys or bows. Now that is what I would call a real Royal Flush.

Classic :ROFLMAO:.
 
I dont understand, what does it matter if Prince William is with her or not? if he is in the room, it improves her standing? For some reason, I am not getting it.
 
I dont understand, what does it matter if Prince William is with her or not? if he is in the room, it improves her standing? For some reason, I am not getting it.

Welcome to the club. I don't get it either.
 
I dont understand, what does it matter if Prince William is with her or not? if he is in the room, it improves her standing? For some reason, I am not getting it.

In the BRF women take their precedence from their husbands, so the way the enter into a room depends on how far their husband is in the line of succession. However there are four alternative orders of precedence, plus the two official rankings, as it differs depending on who's in the room, and the situation.
 
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The British HRH's do curtsey to each other according to the rules as we saw on the Balcony of BP at Trooping - HRH The Duchess of Cambridge curtseyed to HRH The Duke of Edinburgh.

We have heard that Anne refused to curtsey to Diana implying that Anne was expected to curtsey to her new sister-in-law.

But Diana, other than most of the brides of the heirs before Charles, was not a princess born. Thus Anne should have outranked her when they met one-by-one. I believe all this "new" Order of Precedence wants to make clear that on our day and age, when commoners can become the future queen, a princess of the Blood Royal still is something special. It is unfortunate that Eugenie and Beatrice don't have yet shown that they deserve this reference personally but I understand that when "at court" - that is: on official functions in the presence of HM, they should be referenced to a blood members of the Royal Family and accorded the ceremonial greeting for Royal Princesses. There will be very rare occasions when Catherine attends such an event without her husband present. And William "present" means he has to be "there" during the formal greetings, after that he is considered to be there even if he is not in the ´room at that moment.

But that doesn't mean Catherine has to curtsey whenever she meets Beatrice of Eugenie in private and William is not there. For then she is not "at court". While in the presence of HM, she is "at court", even when she comes to a private tea.
 
There've been a couple of media comment that this is sure to make Prince William angry etc....hello, do you think the Queen didn't make this known prior to it being public?? I'm sure there was time to sort out any issues that might of been raised by other members of the family, prior to public knowledge.


LaRae
 
Pranter said:
There've been a couple of media comment that this is sure to make Prince William angry etc....hello, do you think the Queen didn't make this known prior to it being public?? I'm sure there was time to sort out any issues that might of been raised by other members of the family, prior to public knowledge.

LaRae

We don't even know if this curtsey thing is real let alone of it was announced to royals beforehand. It really makes no difference to life.

Baroness of Books said:
:previous:Yes, since they are both royal because of their marriages.

Hang on, so of Tim has to bow to Camilla because they're royal by marriage, they should curtesy to him? :S
 
Diana was never 2nd after the Queen.

Diana depending on the year and in public vs private she may have been the lowest person on the totem pole. She might not even have rank high enough to get a curtesy from other members of the family.

The order of precedence was not created because of Camilla. It has always existed. Camilla is 4th and if Diana was still alive and married to POW she would be 4th.




Order of precedence 1981 IMO
  1. Queen Elizabeth II
  2. Queen Elizabeth
  3. Duchess of Windsor
  4. Princess Alice
  5. Princess Margaret
  6. Princess Alexandra
  7. Princess Anne
  8. Diana
How is it that the Duchess of Windsor would even be on this list? She was not accorded the rank of HRH at the time of marriage to the Former King Edward III, nor was she ever invited to court on official, formal or private occassions with the exception of The Duke of Windsor's funeral. Nor was she a mother of a titled prince or princess. Any consideration the Queen extended to her was based on being married to her Uncle who was a former King . However, officially she would not be accorded any rank or precedence within the Royal Family.

Am I missing something?
 
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