Order of Precedence 1: Ending 2022

[branchg]

Anne was curtseying to The Queen, who was just out of the shot, not Camilla.

It has been confirmed many times before the court order of precedence is simply a protocol for royal events in terms of who sits where, who enters when and in what order, etc. They no longer curtesy or bow to one another based on their respective rank at court as they are all Royal Highnesses with the rank of Prince/Princess.

They do curtsey and bow to The Queen and Prince Philip at court.

 

[BeatrixFan]

Surely Beatrice and Eugenie should curtsey to the Prince of Wales though? I would have thought that went without saying?

 

[Baroness of Books]

The Queen was to Anne's left and slightly forward in the video with her back to Anne, always in sight. Anne was curtseying to a figure directly in front of her, presumably Camilla as others stated, and consequently wasn't even looking at HM or in a position to directly curtsey to the Queen.

 

[branchg]

Surely Beatrice and Eugenie should curtsey to the Prince of Wales though? I would have thought that went without saying?

If they feel it is appropriate to drop a curtsey, for example at a public royal event that is not an official state occasion, then they drop one. I think we're overthinking this whole issue.

I'm sure The Queen couldn't care less if Anne curtsies to Camilla at Ascot or Catherine curtsies to Beatrice at dinner.

 

[Jacknch]

branchg - so you mean to say that after all this debate about who curtseys to whom and in what order, it turns out they don't curtsey afterall only to HM and the DoE?? Well, thank goodness for that!..................except to say that in the video, Anne wasn't curseying to the Queen who had her back to her and she wasn't curtseying to Camilla either because she was simply sharing a joke...probably along the lines of the size of hats and the inability to greet with a kiss.

 

[fandesacs2003]

..Then the Queen Elizabeth, Princess Margaret and Prince Charles come to railway station to receive them..Princess Elizabeth DID NOT curtsey to her mother, who is the Queen Consort..wasnt it an error of protocol..

Very interesting question?? Between a Queen Consort and a Queen, WHO curtseys?? For me the eldest from the two deserves more respect, so QEII should curtssey to her mum, but since she did not, it seems that I'm wrong!
In Greece, when King Kostantin II married Princess Anna Maria of Denmark and made her a Queen, in the wedding ceremony, in the presence of Dowary Queen Federika, after the moment of their union, both women curtsey to eachother. The former and the new. Nice image.

 

[Artemisia]

Interesting article and scheme. I have a question. IF prince Harry marries a foreign Princess by blood, (example Princes Madeleine of Sweden) will Catherine be obliged to bend to her? Or only English born Prinesses by blood, have this right over Catherine?

Precedence is determined by a number of factors. If Prince Harry were to marry Princess Madeleine, the latter would have lower precedence in Britain (as wife of the younger brother) and, in theory, would have to curtsey to Kate and all the other royals who outrank her. In practice, most women nowadays only curtsey to Her Majesty only, and not to other ladies who outrank them; for instance, we haven't seen Kate curtsey to Camilla or Sophie, although both outrank her (as wives of the Sovereign's sons). However, that'd only apply to Britain and Commonwealth Realms; everywhere else, Madeleine would retain her precedence by birth (daughter of the King) and would outrank Kate woman to woman.

Kate has curtseyed to foreign royals who do outrank her (including Crown Princess Margarita of Romania, a royal from a no longer existing Monarchy), so it's not just English royals that Kate must (again, in theory) curtsey to.

 

[vkrish]

Just musing..

- Princess Anne curtseying to King Harald
- Princess Anne curtseying to Queen Sonja

I guess our curtseying "preferences" differ, although we both probably agree Diana's curtseys were certainly very respectful.

Oh my God this is the first time I am seeing the curtsey of Princess Royal and its not much different from Diana's. Since I have seen many of Diana's curtseys I was thinking that is the standard version of royal curtseys..

But I have recently seen curtseys made by Princess Marina and Alice, then Duchess of Gloucester in Youtube video.."King Faisal State visit to UK". They were so casual, brisk and yet perfectly regal..I started liking this type of curtsies..similar to what Samantha Cameron did when Queen and Prince Philip visited 10, Downing Street..Bending knees exactly halfway, one foot behind the other..

I feel Princess Marina and Alice, Duchess of Gloucester are much more reliable references than Anne and Diana(literally kneeling though)..they are a bridge between the Edwardian and New Elizabethan Age, learning their their royal chores under the watchful eyes of Queen Mary..

 

[Meraude]

If I'm saying this right, I think The Duchess of Cambridge is the thrid or fourth lady of the land.

According to this list she's fourth when accompanied by her husband, fifth when on her own: Order of precedence in England and Wales - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

According to this list she's fourth when accompanied by her husband, fifth when on her own: Order of precedence in England and Wales - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My understanding is that when Catherine is accompanied with by William, she is the third Lady in the land

 

[Meraude]

My understanding is that when Catherine is accompanied with by William, she is the third Lady in the land

If both husband and wife are present:

The Queen
The wife of the prince of Wales
The wife of the earl of Wessex
The wife of the duke of Cambridge

The son of the sovereign have higher rank than the grandson of the sovereign in the order of precedence, even if the grandson have a higher rank in the order of succession.

 

[Catherine J]

Oh my goodness, that must be something to keep straight.
I find it odd that the Princess Royal does not fit in there above/with the sons' wives.
Maybe when they change the succession rules to allow for a female Heir Apparent they will similarly change the precedence rules.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Kate Middleton, the Queen and Duchess of Cornwall on official visit to Fortnum & Mason | Mail Online

Quote from this article "
They are the three most senior female royals in the land.
But as the Queen, the Duchess of Cornwall and the Duchess of Cambridge popped out for spot of tea yesterday, it was as if they were on a girls’ day out."


So is Catherine the third senior Lady in the land, or not??

 

[Meraude]

I find it odd that the Princess Royal does not fit in there above/with the sons' wives.

The order of precedence goes after the rank of the husband, but my guess is that the Princess Royal would be placed between the earl of Wessex and the duke of Cambridge, as she's the daughter of the sovereign, even in mixed company.

 

[Artemisia]

Actually, Princess Anne - as the Sovereign's daughter - does have precedence over the wife of the Sovereign's grandson.

The Official Order of Precedence
- Queen Elizabeth (The Queen)
- The Duchess of Cornwall (the wife of the Sovereign's eldest son)
- The Countess of Wessex (the wife of the Sovereign's younger son)
- The Princess Royal (the Sovereign's daughter)
- The Duchess of Cambridge (the wife of the Sovereign's grandson)
- Autumn Phillips (the wife of the Sovereign's grandson)
- Princess Beatrice (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Princess Eugenie (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Lady Louise (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Zara Phillips (the Sovereign's granddaughter)
- Lady Serena Stanhope (Wife of the Sovereign's nephew)
- Lady Sarah Chatto (Sovereign's niece)
- Birgitte, Duchess of Gloucester (Wife of the Sovereign's cousin)
- Katharine, Duchess of Kent (Wife of the Sovereign's cousin)
- Princess Michael of Kent (Wife of the Sovereign's cousin)
- Princess Alexandra, The Honourable Lady Ogilvy (Sovereign's cousin)

The Private Order of Precedence (which is entirely at the Sovereign's will):
- Queen Elizabeth (the Sovereign)
- Princess Anne (British Princess by birth)
- Princess Beatrice (British Princess by birth)
- Princess Eugenie (British Princess by birth)
- Lady Louise (British Princess by birth) *
- Princess Alexandra (British Princess by birth)
- Camilla, The Duchess of Cornwall (British Princess by marriage)
- Sophie, The Countess of Wessex (British Princess by marriage)
- Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge (British Princess by marriage)
- Autumn Phillips
- Zara Phillips

* Assuming we accept Lady Louise is a Princess by birth (as per Letters Patent 1917), despite not using the title.

 

[Dman]

I think the main point is that The Duchess of Cambridge's rank is pretty high and when we see her enter events and depart events with The Queen, the main person you see after The Prince of Wales & Duchess of Cornwall is The Duke & Duchess of Cambridge.

 

[Artemisia]

I think the main point is that The Duchess of Cambridge's rank is pretty high and when we see her enter events and depart events with The Queen, the main person you see after The Prince of Wales & Duchess of Cornwall is The Duke & Duchess of Cambridge.

It's been made very clear, especially in this Jubilee year, that the Wales family (Charles, Camilla, William, Kate and Harry), along with the Queen and Prince Philip, are considered to be "core" members of the Royal Family, regardless of their ranking or respective places in the Order of Precedence.

 

[Dman]

Right, even if William isn't present at an event, you will never most likely see Catherine emerge behind The Princess Royal, The Countess of Wessex, etc. Catherine will always be behind the Queen or Camilla.

 

[Catherine J]

It's been made very clear, especially in this Jubilee year, that the Wales family (Charles, Camilla, William, Kate and Harry), along with the Queen and Prince Philip, are considered to be "core" members of the Royal Family, regardless of their ranking or respective places in the Order of Precedence.

Yes, I think this is so. If one thinks of the BRF as "the firm" then they have been maneuvering the new "board", if you will, into place.

I always wondered about Beatrice and Eugenie. It has been clear, in very stern language, enough times (in the news) that they will have no official royal duties or roles. I wonder this is simply part of the streamlining or whether it is to offset any potential liability Sarah's actions have brought to the girls in terms of them representing the Monarchy.

Could be it's purely economical and practical - Catherine and William will almost certainly have children, Harry will likely marry and have children and Edward and Sophie and their children are a current and, one presumes future, part of the entourage.

 

[Meraude]

Edward and Sophie and their children are a current and, one presumes future, part of the entourage.

I doubt that the children of Edward and Sophie will be a part of the royal entourage, their role in the future will be similar to Peter and Zarah Phillips and David and Sarah Armstrong-Jones, their parents will continue represent the BRF but the children will only attend family events.

 

[Catherine J]

I doubt that the children of Edward and Sophie will be a part of the royal entourage, their role in the future will be similar to Peter and Zarah Phillips and David and Sarah Armstrong-Jones, their parents will continue represent the BRF but the children will only attend family events.

Yes, that makes sense.

It must be difficult, as each reign begins the shift to accommodate the next, to determine which members will be "working" royals and which ones will have to get to the other kind of working.

 

[Queen Camilla]

When Princess Anne became Princess Royal didn't that move up Zara?

 

[Lumutqueen]

In the official order, daughters of the sovereign come fourth not second.

 

[Roslyn]

Kate Middleton, the Queen and Duchess of Cornwall on official visit to Fortnum & Mason | Mail Online

Quote from this article "
They are the three most senior female royals in the land.
But as the Queen, the Duchess of Cornwall and the Duchess of Cambridge popped out for spot of tea yesterday, it was as if they were on a girls’ day out."


So is Catherine the third senior Lady in the land, or not??

I wouldn't pay much attention to that article. I stopped reading it after I read, "The Queen, who celebrated her Diamond Jubilee this year, looked simply delighted to be accompanied for the first time by the two women who will, one day, follow in her footsteps." Leaving aside the issue that Camilla may not be known as Queen, neither of those women will ever follow in her Majesty's footsteps, since they will be Queens Consort, not Regnant.

 

[Duchessmary]

When Princess Anne became Princess Royal didn't that move up Zara?

No. The children of Princess Anne (or Princess Royal) do not have titles because Anne and her husband did not want them.

 

[Artemisia]

When Princess Anne became Princess Royal didn't that move up Zara?

Princess Royal is a title that is traditionally (but not always) bestowed upon the eldest surviving daughter of a Monarch.
It doesn't affect the precedence or ranking of the bearer of the title, or her issue.

Precedence among those who are equal (for instance, granddaughters of the Monarch) is determined by primogeniture. Thus, Zara (who, as a daughter of the daughter comes last by primogeniture rules) is behind all of her cousins - Beatrice, Eugenie and Louise.

 

[Artemisia]

What about this article. Catherine's appears to very high in the pecking order,

The article just repeats what has been said on numerous previous occasions - and most of it turned out to be incorrect.
Firstly, there is a great difference between Official and Private Precedence lists.
In the Official Precedence List, Kate - as wife of the Sovereign's grandson - comes fifth (after the Queen, Camilla, Sophie and Anne).
In the Private Precedence List, which is entire at the Sovereign's will, Kate - as British Princess by marriage - comes (after the Queen, Anne, Beatrice, Eugenie, Lady Louise, Princess Alexandra, Camilla and Sophie).

Woman to woman, Kate is outranked only by the Queen, Camilla, Sophie and Anne. Camilla and Sophie also outrank Kate through their husbands (so if Charles, Edward and William are all present, then Kate's precedence is unchanged).

It has to be noted, however, that what with the emphasis on the "core" members of the Royal Family (the Wales family plus the Queen and Prince Philip), Kate appears to have been given a somewhat higher (unofficial) precedence, coming immediately after the Queen and Camilla, and ahead of Sophie and Princess Anne.

 

[Dman]

I think The Queen and the Palace made it pretty clear doing the Jubilee celebrations that Catherine's precedence within the "Firm" is above The Princess Royal, Countess of Wessex, etc.

I think the focus is now on the "core" senior members of the royal family.

 

[Lumutqueen]

I think The Queen and the Palace made it pretty clear doing the Jubilee celebrations that Catherine's precedence within the "Firm" is above The Princess Royal, Countess of Wessex, etc.

I think the focus is now on the "core" senior members of the royal family.

I don't think they did that in anyway. The balcony appearance and the carriage ride showed the 'future' of the monarchy. It in no way showed that Catherine outranks Camilla, Anne and Sophie. Both sets of precedence, one determined by The Queen herself lists Catherine below Camilla, Sophie and Anne.

 

[Dman]

I know Camilla, Anne and Sophie take precedence over Catherine but I'm mainly talking about the precedence of the royals attending events.