Germanic Ancestry of the House of Windsor

BeatrixFan · #1 10-20-2005, 04:23 PM

A few of us have been discussing the heritage and nationality of the British Royal Family.

I've started to construct 'nationality' trees to try and solve the mystery altogether. The nationality of the RF depends very much on how you determine nationality. You have 3 choices;

1) Nationality of Father
2) Nationality of Mother
3) Place of Birth (Jus Soli)

The first tree I have constructed shows all 3 details.

The Nationality printed in BLUE shows the paternal nationality. The nationality printed in PINK shows the maternal nationality. And the nationality printed in GREEN shows the jus soli nationality.

To determine the nationality of a Monarch to work from, I used the method that if two nationalities appeared for the same person, i.e - German, British, German - that person was German with a 2/3 ratio. (Hey - I'm no scientist!)

In My Opinion, Nationality is determined by the Maternal Line.

I've stopped at Queen Victoria but I am going to go furthur - so the whole tree might change but I don't think it will.

So, what does it show?

Queen Victoria

Paternal - British

Maternal - German
Jus Soli - British
My Opinion - German

Edward VII

Paternal - German

Maternal - British

Jus Soli - British

My Opinion - German

George V

Paternal - British

Maternal - Danish

Jus Soli - British

My Opinion - Danish

Edward VIII

Paternal - British

Maternal - German

Jus Soli - British

My Opinion - German

George VI

Paternal - British

Maternal - German

Jus Soli - British

My Opinion - German

Elizabeth II

Paternal - British

Maternal - British

Jus Soli - British

My Opinion - British

Charles (III?)

Paternal - Danish/Russian/Greek/German

Maternal - British

Jus Soli - British

My Opinion - British

------------------------------------------

My Opinion Explained

As I see it, Queen Elizabeth II is the first Monarch who could consider herself to be British. I base my opinion on the maternal nationality - her mother was British, therefore, Elizabeth is British. This means that Prince Charles is also British based on maternal nationality.

As you can see, it isn't easy to determine at all. This is the line for Charles, Andrew, Edward and Anne only - I haven't looked into the Minor Royals (soon to follow) which may be a little bit more colorful.

Officially (and luckily for the British Royal Family), nationality is determined by jus soli. Therefore all Monarchs since Queen Victoria at least, have been British.

What do you all think?

tiaraprin · #2 10-20-2005, 04:41 PM

Where are Diana, William, and Harry?? Conveniently forgotten? Not surprised!!

As much as I hate it, Charles is next in line to the throne. As much as you hate it, William is his successor.

BeatrixFan · #3 10-20-2005, 04:54 PM

Tiaraprin,

Harry and Diana are not included because they are not past, present or future Monarchs - William is and I will add him.

This isn't a thread about who should succeed but the nationality of the British Royal Family.

**Zonk** · #4 10-20-2005, 04:58 PM

BeatrixFan,

I think what Tiarapin meant (and please correct me if I am wrong), is Diana should be included in the Charles factor and not Camilia. This doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Camilla is his wife...more so that Diana is the biological mother of William and therefore her ancestry, and not Camilla's is more important.

Tiarapin, is that what you mean?

tiaraprin · #5 10-20-2005, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonk1189

BeatrixFan,

I think what Tiarapin meant (and please correct me if I am wrong), is Diana should be included in the Charles factor and not Camilia. This doesn't have anything to do with the fact that Camilla is his wife...more so that Diana is the biological mother of William and therefore her ancestry, and not Camilla's is more important.

Tiarapin, is that what you mean?

Yes that is part of it Zonk. Also, Beatrix doesn't want to acknowledge Diana and William in my opinion. From posts in other threads, I believe she feels that they are somehow tainted and unworthy to have be/been royal.

**Zonk** · #6 10-20-2005, 05:04 PM

Well...thats a story for another day :)

BeatrixFan...I have a question for you: What did you use as the deciding factor in determining someone's nationality. Was it paternal factor...or who that person more idenitified with.

norwegianne · #7 10-20-2005, 05:12 PM

It's an interesting topic, Beatrixfan. It would be interesting to see more of the reasoning you used behind it - for instance: I would say that by using the "maternal line" as parameter at least a generation further back on Alexandra would have her mother be Danish by those definitions. So, if I were to do it, I would think about having the same generation as a cut off, to make fair comparisons. (You may have done so now, but I can't quite see it, as you have explained very little about the royal spouse's background that made you reason the way you did.)

I think it would be a lot clearer if it were to be divided into three different tablets, one for each point of view. It might make it less confusing.

ysbel · #8 10-20-2005, 05:14 PM

This is interesting, where do you get that Prince Philip is Russian? His father was Prince of Greece so wouldn't that make him of Greek nationality with Danish ancestry?

BeatrixFan · #9 10-20-2005, 05:17 PM

Yes that is part of it Zonk. Also, Beatrix doesn't want to acknowledge Diana and William in my opinion. From posts in other threads, I believe she feels that they are somehow tainted and unworthy to have be/been royal.

Tiaraprin - I have responded to your private message and suggest that be the end of it. I started this topic to discuss the lineage of the Royal Family, not to have a Charles/Diana argument. Thankyou.

Diana wasn't included because I aimed to present it as King/Queen. I will add a side note when I add William (and George II,III and IV) that shows Diana as his mother and not Camilla.

Zonk, it was far more difficult than I thought! Basically, I worked from Victoria and outwards. I looked at the mother, father and birthplace of the individual.

The three ways can give you different results.

Prince Charles

By Jus Soli, he is British because he was born on British soil and so his parents' nationality don't come into it at all.

By Maternal Line, he is British, because his mother is British, because her mother was, and her mother was etc etc.

By Paternal Line, he is Danish, because his father was Danish, his father was Danish etc.

As long as you stick to either a paternal, maternal or jus soli method - it's easy.

The way I did it was to use a ratio. So, Prince Charles - his father is Danish, his mother is British and he was born in Britain - so, 2 Brits to 1 Dane make him British. That isn't the best way of doing it I'm sure, but it made it easier for me.

I could do it other ways, working paternally, maternally, jus soli or by ratio and the result would the same or slightly different - it's all so confusing!!

BeatrixFan · #10 10-20-2005, 05:21 PM

Philip - Well, his mother was Princess Alice - her mother was Russian and she was born in Russia - either that or her father was Russian and so was her mother - again, the 2/3 ratio was used. (I'm so bogged down in notes!) She was more Russian than German. Therefore, by maternal line, Philip is Russian. By Paternal Line he is Danish. By Jus Soli, he is Greek. But if his fathers nationality was determined by Jus Soli then he would be Greek!

I think Norwegianne, that you're right - I need to break each persons family tree down - I am going to go into more detail and it may take alot of time so I hope everyone will stick with the topic and join in!

Elspeth · #11 10-20-2005, 05:28 PM

BeatrixFan, at the time when Charles was born, nationality in Britain was legally determined by the paternal line. I have a British friend who married an American man, and her children don't count as British because their father wasn't the British parent. I believe this was amended in the 1980s, but back in the 1940s, Charles's nationality would have tracked with his father's. Since Philip was a naturalised British citizen by then, Charles would have had British nationality on that basis. This assumes, of course, that the royal family's nationality is conferred in the same way as anyone else's, which probably isn't the case.

I agree with Tiaraprin that leaving out Diana is just confusing. Charles was married twice, and it shouldn't be hard to add both wives to the chart, especially since Diana is the one from whom the next generation descends. As long as this is a chart showing descent, I think most of the people reading the chart will want to see the direct line of descent; it's by no means obvious that this chart is just about kings and queens, especially since it includes Wallis. I realise that Diana is dead and will never be queen, but this really does look like an attempt to write her out of history and is going to be needlessly offensive.

**Zonk** · #12 10-20-2005, 05:28 PM

I need to check...but wasn't Princess Alice (Prince Phillip's mother) the grandaughter of Queen Victoria. Her mother was Princess Alice, the 2nd daughter of the Queen. So that would make her English/German more than Russian.

BeatrixFan · #13 10-20-2005, 05:33 PM

Heavens above! You're right.

You see how confusing it all is? I am in fact, going to begin this project again - I hope we can all chip in and make some sense of it! It's a huge undertaking. Especially working backwards!

Norwegianne is so right - there has to be a generation to cut off at. For example, for Queen Elizabeth II;

Her paternal line goes back through many monarchs which I'll have to include but her maternal line can be cut off at the Queen Mothers parents providing they are British.

My mission is to solve the issue of nationality once and for all!

norwegianne · #14 10-20-2005, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonk1189

I need to check...but wasn't Princess Alice (Prince Phillip's mother) the grandaughter of Queen Victoria. Her mother was Princess Alice, the 2nd daughter of the Queen. So that would make her English/German more than Russian.

Only one of the many reasons why this is looking to be a very interesting discussion.

Ben Pimlott's "The Queen" mentions that the naturalization of Phillip in 1947, was quite unnecessary, as a descendant of the Electress Sophie of Hanover, he was a British subject from birth... As would Charles, regardless of where he was born, in both lines, wouldn't he?

**Zonk** · #15 10-20-2005, 05:41 PM

Yes, I would agree that Phillip was a British subject at birth. But didn't the naturalization have more to do with the "nationalization ideology" that existed after WWII. I am not British..and what I know I have read...but I take it in the begining...the British weren't too happy that their Princess was marrying a "foreigner." Even though he spent a large part of his childhood/adult life in England.

BeatrixFan · #16 10-20-2005, 05:42 PM

Ben Pimlott's "The Queen" mentions that the naturalization of Phillip in 1947, was quite unnecessary, as a descendant of the Electress Sophie of Hanover, he was a British subject from birth... As would Charles, regardless of where he was born, in both lines, wouldn't he?

I think that to make this a success, I will have to make a note of naturalisation but I'll have to decide how this affects a child.

For example, if Prince Philip was naturalised as British does that make his children British? Or does his original nationality count?

With family trees, women are entered in their birth name not married names etc - I think I'll have to use birth nationality and not acquired nationality for it to work.

norwegianne · #17 10-20-2005, 05:49 PM

By deciding which generations to cut off at, you'll also have a starting point in terms of nationality. If you start by the generation before Victoria (ie. The Duke of Kent was so-so, the Duchess of Kent...) , and use their nationalities as a starting point for the maternal/paternal discussion, and place of birth as the third option. And in the case of those you can't find information on, you only go as far back as you can...

(Of course, I'm tired now, so if I'm not making much sense, ignore me.)

BeatrixFan · #18 10-20-2005, 05:56 PM

Diana point accepted and she will be included in the second draft.

I think that the way to do this is to be pretty clipped.

Show the Paternal, Maternal and Jus Soli Nationality and include also, any naturalisation which took place.

As far as generations etc go, if it isn't important, I'll have to leave it out. As I said, by going back to 100BC for the Queen Mother's lineage will be expert in it's reliability but I'll have to be a little bit more realistic and just include her parents!

I really want to show the nationalities they could be considered to be rather than the actual one, to let people decide for themselves.

So, Prince Charles could be British, Greek, Danish, German or Russian - depending which method you use!!

Elspeth · #19 10-20-2005, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zonk1189

I need to check...but wasn't Princess Alice (Prince Phillip's mother) the grandaughter of Queen Victoria. Her mother was Princess Alice, the 2nd daughter of the Queen. So that would make her English/German more than Russian.

Princess Alice's grandmother (not her mother) was Queen Victoria's daughter; I think that's what you might have meant to say since you said she was Queen Victoria's granddaughter. Nevertheless, you're right that there wasn't much in the way of Russian background there!

Lady Marmalade · #20 10-20-2005, 08:07 PM

This is a very interesting topic. It looks as though you are determining by blood and not country born as to the actual heritage in that respect.

William, due to Diana and the Scottish coming from his paternal great-grandmother, the Queen Mother, will be the most "British English" King in a very long time.

Up until Queen Elizabeth, there was much sentiment by the aristocracy as looking at the royal family as "foreigners" due to the German blood.

Diana herself was quoted as when she was upset at the Royals she always referred to them as "those Germans".

But this is fascinating. I think it is wise to remember NOT so much the country born, but the ancestral blood of origin that courses through them. Then you would accurately get a real picture of their heritage.

Cheers, BeatrixFan, for creating this thread. :)