Germanic Ancestry of the House of Windsor

[WreathOfLaurels]

Has anyone on this thread read Benedict Andersons Imagened Communities? It's got a lot about the question of how the idea of national identites are formed and how we view the past strongly effects it. Could be relevant to this topic along withNorman Davies The Isles a very strange but good history of the U.K. and Ireland with a lot to say about the RFs heritage and the geneological slight of hand employed to get around the German antecedents of the RF.

A lot of the emphasis on the late QM and Pss Diana's "Britishness" (overlooking their own non British heritage) is part of this along with playing up Philips Mountbatten roots. It's interesting that prince William and Prince George may well be the most "British" read non-continental European kings since Tudor times (ignoring their French ancestry), but Charles might well be the most genuinely European ancestry wise with German, Russian, Danish, Polish, Dutch, French, and Hungarian roots along with the Greek connection from Philip - Vive la Differnce, Sa Majestie!

Besides the RFs German connection predates the hanovers/coburgs/Windsors. There were few German queens prior to to the c18 but a lot of English/Scottish princesses married plenty of German princes - empress maltilda and Elizabeth of Bohemia being the most important

 

[Countessmeout]

Difference 1 generation makes to opinions. Or months. Had Anne died even 3 months earlier George would not have been king. His mother Sophie would be queen. While a German princess, she wasn't 'all German.' Her mother was a Stewart (James I's daughter). The 1/2 Scots princess one step above all german son. She died 2 months before Anne.

In the days of royal/royal marriage, many generations would have been half Brit (though some like Henry VIII and his dad married local). James I married a Dane, Charles I French, Charles II Portugese, James II 2nd was Italian. Mary II Dutch and Mary I Spanish. Henry VIII Spanish and German (child only from Spanish and English wives).

George I was the only monarch with a German parent. German was not common bride choice and the two there was never gave a king.

Anne of Bohemia-wife of Richard II, no kids
Anne of Cleves- never consummated

Mathilda married a German but had no kids. It was her French 2nd husband her heir came from.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

Quick note abou the late Pss Diana's ancestry - her mother Frances Fermoy wasn't English - she was on terms of immediate ancestry Scottish and Anglo-Irish with an American grandmother named Fanny Work (don't know where that name came from...) - there was often a lot made of the "bad fermoy blood" with regards to her temperament and behaviour.

 

[Pranter]

Actually her name was Frances Ellen Work (Fanny must of been a nickname).

 

[Countessmeout]

Frances was born in England which makes her English. Her father Maurice in London, his father James in Middlesex. The family came from Ireland with her 2 time great-grandfather who married a London woman. Ireland (as a whole) was part of the UK, so they would have, as a Welsh or Scot would be, considered a local/non-foreign family. Ruth was Scottish, much the same as the queen mum who she served. As for Fanny, her family may have been American but they were from Devon (her grandfather).

Besides it was her 'Spencer' blood Diana always said was older. Her grandfather's wife was Scottish (daughter of Duke of Abercon). His father married the daughter of Baron Revelstoke (Devon). His father (2 times great grandpa of Diana) wed his second wife daughter of Sir Horace Seymour (grandson of Marquis of Hertford). His father 2nd earl had an Irish wife (daughter of earl of lucan). The 1st countess was born at St James palace, her mother a queen's lady to Caroline of Ansbach. Her mother in law was the daughter and heir to the earl of Granville. Going back to 1733, with the parents of the 1st earl, all wives were aristocratic brides from some part of the UK.

 

[Skippyboo]

If Frances being born in England makes her English than so was every monarch since George III so 8 monarchs later people are still calling the royal family German.


Sent from my iPhone using The Royals Community

 

[Countessmeout]

People seem to confuse heritage with nationality

I have Irish and English grandparents. Am I not Canadian?

Elizabeth was born in GB. Her parents were. All four grandparents were. It is ridiculous to say she isn't British.

Elizabeth: London

parents:
queen mom: London
George VI: Sandringham

grandparents:
Claude BL: Like his daughter Scot lord born in London
Cecilia: Westminster
George V: London
Mary: Kensington palace London


great-grandparents:
Francis T:Croatia
Mary: Germany
Edward VII: London
Alexandra: Denmark
Claude BL: England
Frances: London
Charles: England
Louisa: England

1 German, 1 Croatian, 1 Dane, 5 UK but focus on German

2 times:
Anne Salisbury: Dorset
Edwyn Burnaby: Leictershire where he was high sheriff
Anne Wellesley (niece 1st duke of Wellington) Paris or London to Irish dad, raised in London
Charles Bentinck- England, dad was Duke of Portland PM of England
Henrietta Hodson- Cumberland
Oswald Smith- Surrey
Charlotte Grimstead- Surrey
Thomas BL: England
Augusta HK: Germany
Adolphus: London
Claudine: Hungarian
Alexander: German duke possibly born in Russia
Louise: German
Christian of Denmark: German
Victoria: England
Albert: German

You have to back to this level and still don't have even 1/2. 5 Germans (one though born in Russia), 1 Hungarian, 9 English and one Irish/French born either in London/Paris.

I notice Charles isn't called Greek yet he is 1/2.

Yes they were once German but then again they were once French. William I was French and his wife Flemish. His claim was through his great aunt who was mother of Edward.

 

[WreathOfLaurels]

That was part of the point when I mentioned Benedict Anderson and Norman Davies's books, was that the whole subject of nation vs ethnic group is very fluid and open to interpretation depending on political climate and historical fashions.

 

[Pranter]

Frances was born in England which makes her English. Her father Maurice in London, his father James in Middlesex. The family came from Ireland with her 2 time great-grandfather who married a London woman. Ireland (as a whole) was part of the UK, so they would have, as a Welsh or Scot would be, considered a local/non-foreign family. Ruth was Scottish, much the same as the queen mum who she served. As for Franny, her family may have been American but they were from Devon (her grandfather).
.

Frances Ellen Work (great grandmother of Diana) was born and died in NYC. Are you talking about a different Frances?

LaRae

 

[Duc_et_Pair]

All royal families have Germans. The Dutch possibly have the most Germans.

Willem-Alexander has 1 German father, 3 German grandparents, 7 German great-grandparents, 15 German great-great-grandparents, which reads like a register of German nobles: Von Amsberg, Von Passow, Von Vieregge, Von Gutschmidt, Von dem Bussche-Haddenhausen, Von Salviati, Von dem Bussche-Ippenburg, Von Chelius, Zur Lippe-Biesterfeld, Von Wartensleben, Von Sierstorpff, Von Cramm, Von Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Von Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt, Von Waldeck und Pyrmont.


So compared to the neighbours overseas, the Windsors are VERY British and the British media are utter nonsense with their "German" stings.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

When Queen Elizabeth II made the royal visit to Germany in 1965, did newspapers and magazines publish the Windsor family tree with its German roots?

 

[Curryong]

They probably did. Newspapers are capable of anything.

However, at least since the Queen mother, with her English/Scots ancestry joined the Royal family the more British blood has predominated. After all, the Queen is half Scottish and English. Diana had English and Irish blood and William's going to be probably the most British monarch since Elizabeth I.

Plus, as others have said, yes heritage does matter to a certain extent, (and my children and grandchildren have British blood from my side but they are 100% Australian in allegiance.) However heart and attitude probably count for considerably more.

George V certainly felt himself to be British as his remarks at different times show. "I may be dull but I'm damned if I'm alien!" (in answer to WWI criticism) and "I've been abroad and it's awful!" (If that last remark isn't typical of a certain sort of Englishman I don't know what is!) His mother Queen Alexandra had German and some Danish blood, but hated and loathed Germany with all her heart and soul.

 

[Marc23]

People seem to confuse heritage with nationality


great-grandparents:
Francis T:Croatia

You have forgotten that at that time it was Austro-Hungarian Empire

In recent history, Croatia was part of Austro-Hungarian Empire until 1918, later immediately part of Yugoslavia(from 1918-1992) and independent only from 1991.

 

[Countessmeout]

the point being she wasn't German. Which is the obvious point I was making and you clearly missed. Croatia may have been part of the empire back, but was never abd is not Germanic.

 

[Dman]

House of Windsor is celebrating centenary of changing Royal Family name | Daily Mail Online

http://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/752571/royal-family-tree-last-name

 

[Mbruno]

Difference 1 generation makes to opinions. Or months. Had Anne died even 3 months earlier George would not have been king. His mother Sophie would be queen. While a German princess, she wasn't 'all German.' Her mother was a Stewart (James I's daughter). The 1/2 Scots princess one step above all german son. She died 2 months before Anne.

In the days of royal/royal marriage, many generations would have been half Brit (though some like Henry VIII and his dad married local). James I married a Dane, Charles I French, Charles II Portugese, James II 2nd was Italian. Mary II Dutch and Mary I Spanish. Henry VIII Spanish and German (child only from Spanish and English wives).

George I was the only monarch with a German parent. German was not common bride choice and the two there was never gave a king.

Anne of Bohemia-wife of Richard II, no kids
Anne of Cleves- never consummated

Mathilda married a German but had no kids. It was her French 2nd husband her heir came from.

I suspect a big dividing line was the Act of Settlement, which in practice barred British princes and princesses from marrying Roman Catholics.

With the choice of foreign brides and grooms restricted to the Protestant pool, Germany and the Scandinavian countries became natural choices. The Netherlands would be another possibility, but, somehow, plans to marry British princesses like Charlotte of Wales and Victoria of Kent to Dutch royals never went through.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

In the spring of 1917 there was what seems to have been a concerted campaign against the King of England and the royal family. There was a spate of letters arriving at 10 Downing Street asking how the First World War could be won when the King himself was German.

 

[Supermac]

In the spring of 1917 there was what seems to have been a concerted campaign against the King of England and the royal family. There was a spate of letters arriving at 10 Downing Street asking how the First World War could be won when the King himself was German.

H. G. Wells, wasn't it? He said George V had an "alien and uninspiring court", to which the King replied, "I may be uninspiring, but I'll be damned if I'm an alien!"

 

[Supermac]

Thanks to you all for the input.

I've decided that the only way to deal with this is to go from Alfred the Great to William (V). This will give a basic nationality for each Monarch since Alfred. Then, I'll create a family tree with all Royals and add their nationalities etc below. Again, it's deciding a start and finish point.

Princess Alice - my fault over the confusion! Prince Philip's paternal nationality is a choice between Russian, Greek and Danish. Russian because Prince Andrew's father had a maternal nationality of Russian. Therefore, based on Maternal nationality, he would be Russian and this would form the paternal nationality of Prince Philip. Philip could be Greek by Jus Soli, but by his paternal line again, his father was born in Greece (Jus Soli) but Andrew's father was Danish.

I couldn't find why I thought she was Russian and it was a slip on my part!

Now you see how hard it is!

I've got another project on the go, which is a vast family tree which shows how the Royal Families are all related but it really is hopeless! It means going from Gorm the Old etc to work forward, not backwards.

So hopefully, my nationality investigation will provide an answer but it will only provide one from Alfred the Great.

I think the whole nationality thing is a bit pointless. We know what nationality the Queen - and the current British Royal Family - is: British. If you want to talk about genetics, that's another story. Because a lot of royal dynasties have been hanging around in Germany for centuries, people often dismiss them as German - but interestingly, considering the inbreeding common among the Habsburgs, as late as the 18th century they still probably had a high percentage of Spanish DNA. The House of Mecklenburg were actually founded by Niklot, a Slavic chieftain. And occassionally non-German lineages leak into the royal families of Europe one way or another - via illegitamite children or morganatic marriages. Look at somebody like Prince Louis of Battenberg - about a half Polish and probably a quarter French.

 

[SirGyamfi1]

Frances was born in England which makes her English. Her father Maurice in London, his father James in Middlesex. The family came from Ireland with her 2 time great-grandfather who married a London woman. Ireland (as a whole) was part of the UK, so they would have, as a Welsh or Scot would be, considered a local/non-foreign family. Ruth was Scottish, much the same as the queen mum who she served. As for Fanny, her family may have been American but they were from Devon (her grandfather).

Besides it was her 'Spencer' blood Diana always said was older. Her grandfather's wife was Scottish (daughter of Duke of Abercon). His father married the daughter of Baron Revelstoke (Devon). His father (2 times great grandpa of Diana) wed his second wife daughter of Sir Horace Seymour (grandson of Marquis of Hertford). His father 2nd earl had an Irish wife (daughter of earl of lucan). The 1st countess was born at St James palace, her mother a queen's lady to Caroline of Ansbach. Her mother in law was the daughter and heir to the earl of Granville. Going back to 1733, with the parents of the 1st earl, all wives were aristocratic brides from some part of the UK.

The Baring Family (who hold the Revelstoke title) from which Diana descends from were German from Hamburg and were a banking family. Also Diana is a descendant of Dutch van Keppel family from which Camilla directly descends from so she wasn’t completely English. More English but not completely.

 

[CyrilVladisla]

The Royal Family's German Roots