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  #141  
Old 07-09-2020, 12:09 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
There may well also be the point that those further down the line of sucession were probably not that well qualified to act as CoS.
Many of those 'further down the list' had already served as CoS.

The reason I gave was given to the public at the time ... it was felt right that she remain in the list due to being the wife of the previous monarch.

At the time the CoS's were: Philip, Margaret, Henry, Mary and George Lascelles. Other than Margaret who had been added to the list in 1951 the others had been on the list for a decade or so when The Queen became The Queen. The next on the list was Gerald Lascelles who had been replaced by Margaret but himself had been on the list from 1944 to 1950.
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  #142  
Old 07-09-2020, 12:11 AM
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There is a difference between a foreigner becoming Head of State - a lot of people have to die before the King of Norway (who, by the way is a British citizen ... as is the Queen of Denmark and the King of Sweden ... although not their descendants).

The law is quite clear - a CoS MUST be domiciled in the UK - what their citizenship is is irrelevant - they have to live in the UK.
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  #143  
Old 07-09-2020, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
There is a difference between a foreigner becoming Head of State - a lot of people have to die before the King of Norway (who, by the way is a British citizen ... as is the Queen of Denmark and the King of Sweden ... although not their descendants).
This is new to me, is the King of Norway a British citizen?
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  #144  
Old 07-09-2020, 01:58 AM
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Originally Posted by muriel View Post
This is new to me, is the King of Norway a British citizen?
Any descendant of the Electress Sophia born before 1948 is automatically a British citizen under the Sophia Naturalisation Act.

In the 1950s the father of Prince Ernest of Hanover wanted to do something in Britain and was told he couldn't as he wasn't a British citizen. He argued - that as a descendant of Sophia he was. He took it to court and won. The government then changed the law restricting the British citizenship to those born before 1948 (had this been remembered in 1947 Prince Philip wouldn't have had to renounce his Greek and Danish citizenship as he was born a British citizen).

That is why the current Kings of Norway and Sweden and the Queen of Denmark are British citizens but their children aren't - they were all born before 1948 and are all descended from Sophia.

The King of Norway is the first foreigner in the line of succession being descended from Edward VII's youngest daughter.
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  #145  
Old 07-09-2020, 02:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
Any descendant of the Electress Sophia born before 1948 is automatically a British citizen under the Sophia Naturalisation Act.

In the 1950s the father of Prince Ernest of Hanover wanted to do something in Britain and was told he couldn't as he wasn't a British citizen. He argued - that as a descendant of Sophia he was. He took it to court and won. The government then changed the law restricting the British citizenship to those born before 1948 (had this been remembered in 1947 Prince Philip wouldn't have had to renounce his Greek and Danish citizenship as he was born a British citizen).

That is why the current Kings of Norway and Sweden and the Queen of Denmark are British citizens but their children aren't - they were all born before 1948 and are all descended from Sophia.

The King of Norway is the first foreigner in the line of succession being descended from Edward VII's youngest daughter.
Very interesting, thank you for sharing.
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  #146  
Old 07-09-2020, 09:53 AM
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But domiciled for how long? A month , a year?
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  #147  
Old 07-09-2020, 10:07 AM
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That isn't clear ... it could be as little as a month but I would think that logically it should be at least half the year. I would assume that the primary country of residence has to be the UK but so far it hasn't come up as all the CoSs since 1937 have resided in the UK. Harry's decision has raised a wrinkle that will have to be considered if it turns out that he isn't spending at least half his time in the UK.
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  #148  
Old 07-09-2020, 10:17 AM
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Well it certainly is a wrinkle.

It's a good opportunity to revise the criteria. Only full time residents should be eligible. I'm sure everyone would see the fairness in that.
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  #149  
Old 07-09-2020, 10:21 AM
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"Domicile" is distinct from "residence".

RDRM20010 - Residence, Domicile and Remittance Basis Manual - HMRC internal manual - GOV.UK

It is possible to be resident in one country for decades, but remain domiciled in another country.
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  #150  
Old 07-09-2020, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
"Domicile" is distinct from "residence".

RDRM20010 - Residence, Domicile and Remittance Basis Manual - HMRC internal manual - GOV.UK

It is possible to be resident in one country for decades, but remain domiciled in another country.
Thank for that, I was uncertain.

Clearly there is need for reform. Even if we keep what I think is a flawed system, only citizens who are full time residents should be eligible.

Maybe reform is already in the pipeline.
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  #151  
Old 12-09-2020, 10:22 PM
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Tatler has picked up a Daily Mail column written by Ephraim Hardcastle on the Counsellors of State. Hardcastle also mentioned it's only Charles and William who are highly likely to step in to attend Privy Council meeting, sign documents and receive the credentials of new ambassadors. Harry and Andrew are unlikely to fill these roles, according to Hardcastle.

Why the Queen’s Counsellors of State are dwindling
With Prince Philip, Prince Andrew and the Duke of Sussex all having stepped back from working royal life, the system is growing ever more fragile
https://www.tatler.com/article/queen...w-prince-harry

I agree with Durham that the eligibility of Counsellor of State should be reform (unsure when exactly), so that it only includes British citizen who are full-time resident in the UK.

I do not mind non-working royals serving as Counsellor of State, as long as they lived permanently in the UK. For example, Princess Maud, Countess of Southesk was a Counsellor of State between 1942-1945, despite not being a working royal.
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  #152  
Old 12-09-2020, 10:39 PM
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The current law requires the Counsellors of State to be domiciled in the UK.

When the law was written all those who would have possibly been CoS would have been British citizens as descendants of the Electress Sophia of Hanover e.g. The King of Norway and the Queen of Denmark are both British citizens although their children aren't. Whether they have ever 'claimed' that citizenship I have no idea but as they were born before 1948 and descend from the Electress Sophia they are British citizens.

The only question now is whether Harry is eligible due to where he lives. Otherwise all those who are eligible are British citizens and domiciled in the UK.

Counsellors of State don't just chair the Privy Council but also receive incoming Ambassadors and High Commissioners. That was the most recent role of the CoS nearly 20 years ago.

If they weren't needed this year then there is no reason to think they will be needed for the foreseeable future as the Queen is clearly in very good health but doesn't go overseas anymore.
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  #153  
Old 02-21-2021, 05:06 PM
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Since the current law requires the Counsellors of State to be domiciled in the UK and the Duke of Sussex has indicated that he will not be returning to royal duties, will there be a change in the current line up DoE PoW, DoCam, DoS and DoY? Has anyone read any news on this topic in the past few days?



https://www.royal.uk/counsellors-state
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  #154  
Old 02-21-2021, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by TLLK View Post
Since the current law requires the Counsellors of State to be domiciled in the UK and the Duke of Sussex has indicated that he will not be returning to royal duties, will there be a change in the current line up DoE PoW, DoCam, DoS and DoY? Has anyone read any news on this topic in the past few days?



https://www.royal.uk/counsellors-state
Surprisingly, there has not been any news on Counsellors of State, apart from an article in the Royal Central website (written by Charlie Proctor), which does raise some important points nevertheless. He mentioned that the main concern is on The Duke of Sussex and Duke of York.

https://www.royal.uk/counsellors-state
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  #155  
Old 02-21-2021, 05:23 PM
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I am no expert on this topic, but per a British law expert:
Domicile denotes a more permanent association with a country and is generally determined at birth and will remain that country unless you resettle with a firm intention to live in a different country for the rest of your life. [...]

To change domicile, you generally must sever all ties with the UK. So the Revenue might consider you still to be UK-domiciled if you had moved to Spain but returned to Britain to visit friends or family.
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  #156  
Old 02-21-2021, 05:26 PM
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Interesting as I don't think the Duke of Edinburgh is in fit state to act as Regent nor would the duke of York be selected.

That leaves the Prince of Wales and his sons,the Princess Royal would be a natural choice in my mind.
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  #157  
Old 02-21-2021, 05:37 PM
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A Counsellor of State requires that the person has a domicile in the UK. Harry does, Frogmore Cottage. He is over 21 and has not stated that he is permanently living in the US and will never return to Britain. In fact he's said the opposite, that had it not been for Covid he would have come back several times. Nor has Harry stated that he wishes to sever all ties with the U.K.

A Regent is the next adult over the age of 21 in the line of succession. Should anything happen to Charles and William in the next ten years that will be Harry.
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  #158  
Old 02-21-2021, 06:02 PM
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The Regency Act 1937 and amended 1944 covers these two roles (Counsellors of State and Regent).

1. To be a CoS a person has to be:

a) one of the first four adults in the line of succession - Charles, William, Harry and Andrew

b) be the spouse of the monarch - Philip

c) be domiciled in the UK - all five have homes in the UK - whether Harry actually meets the 'domiciled in the UK' when he now largely lives in the US is debateable and the parliament may need to look into defining that term a bit more

d) be over 21 except for the heir apparent who has to be over 18 (Charles became a CoS at 18 while the other three did so at 21.) Anne stopped being eligible when William turned 21 and Edward when Harry turned 21. There are two other people now ahead of Edward who are eligible (Beatrice and Eugenie) and in November 2024 there will be another person knocking Anne further away (Louise).

2. To be the Regent a person has to be:

a) the next adult in the line of succession - Charles

b) domiciled in the UK - Charles is

c) over 18 with at least a three year age gap between Regent and monarch (that was the major reform in the 1944 act as it was realised that Elizbeth could be Queen at that time but she couldn't be Regent for her father if needed).

The parliament may think about amending the term 'domiciled' to 'permanently resident' which was probably the original intent of the law but terms have slightly changed meaning since 1937. If they did that then Beatrice would be the next CoS.

Anne is so far down the line of succession, with so many adults ahead of her, no matter the wishful thinking she isn't going to go back to a role she hardly ever fulfilled anyway (according to the CC). The Queen tended to appoint the most senior available CoSs and from 1985 Anne was fourth in seniority so the last one appointed while her brothers were appointed first.
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  #159  
Old 02-21-2021, 06:21 PM
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Thank you to all who took the time to reply. I enjoyed reading your replies. Curious to see if the issue will be raised soon by the BRF/Government.
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  #160  
Old 02-21-2021, 06:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
There is a difference between a foreigner becoming Head of State - a lot of people have to die before the King of Norway (who, by the way is a British citizen ... as is the Queen of Denmark and the King of Sweden ... although not their descendants).

The law is quite clear - a CoS MUST be domiciled in the UK - what their citizenship is is irrelevant - they have to live in the UK.

Actually I think the law also says that a CoS must be a "British subject", so I guess citizenship is relevant too.


Curiously there are no citizenship requirements for succession to the Crown though.
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