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  #381  
Old 08-01-2018, 04:21 PM
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M.Payton

The coronation is what the government wants it to be. No doubt it will be the most achingly right on and politically correct event in history.

The coronation of Charles, will be a shadow of his mother’s. Unfortunately, it’s just the way it is.
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  #382  
Old 08-01-2018, 04:30 PM
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Yes the government will have their way and I also believe whole heartily that Charles will have a huge input into his coronation when the time arises. After all Charles will be king and it does not matter who in history has the bigger, or better or more glorious coronation, what matters is that it takes place with all involved.
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  #383  
Old 08-01-2018, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
All arguments aside on the "diversity" in the coronation ceremony between 1953 and the upcoming coronation of Charles, what it does show me is just how far we've come in that time and also points out how far we still need to go.

I'll be happy when there's no need any longer to point out "diversity" and label people such as "people of color" or by anything else. When people just see people as other people sharing their earth, it will be a dream come true for me.

Perhaps not in my lifetime but one can dream.
Yes, we’ve come a long, but we certainly have a long way to go indeed.

I never want to come off as telling people what they should want. It’s just that it’s a good thing when people of other races are reflected in our institutions, because it represents what our nations look like.

I completely understand that 1953 was a different time and place. I just hope people understand that incorporating diversity into the Coronation takes nothing away from the traditions and grandeur of the event. The United Kingdom, the realms and Commonwealth has changed dramatically for the better. People from all different walks of life are part of the Family of Nations.

Charles, William and George’s future Coronations must reflect the diverse backgrounds of the Kingdom.

I think everyone should know that we’ll never see another Coronation like the 1953 version again. Times have changed and the institution of the Monarchy have to adapt to that change.
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  #384  
Old 08-01-2018, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
For the coronation of King Charles, ‘people of colour’ won’t play a part either. All the major players are white , which should come as no surprise.
Well as of now, the Lord Archbishop of York and Primate of England, the second most senior clerical position in the Church of England after that of Archbishop of Canterbury, Primate of All England, and indeed a key players is the coronation ceremony along with the Archbishop of Canterbury is His Grace The Most Reverend and Right Honourable John Sentamu, is a black man born near Kampala in present-day Uganda and he has been Archbishop of York since 2005. So your statement is factually wrong
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  #385  
Old 08-01-2018, 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted by alvinking View Post
Well as of now, the Lord Archbishop of York and Primate of England, the second most senior clerical position in the Church of England after that of Archbishop of Canterbury, Primate of All England, and indeed a key players is the coronation ceremony along with the Archbishop of Canterbury is His Grace The Most Reverend and Right Honourable John Sentamu, is a black man born near Kampala in present-day Uganda and he has been Archbishop of York since 2005. So your statement is factually wrong
Well remove John Setumu and I’m correct. It’s the Archbishop of Canterbury who crowns the monarch. All the great officers of state, all the hereditary peers, all the ‘great and the good ‘ are ‘white Anglo Saxon Protestants’.
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  #386  
Old 08-01-2018, 05:16 PM
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You can NOT remove the man just to prove your right .........he is there period!
And there is nothing wrong with that either........*WE ARE ALL PEOPLE OF THIS EARTH, ONE PLANET so lets get along with each other........

And the Commonwealth is not made up of all white angle Saxon Protestants either......
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  #387  
Old 08-01-2018, 06:06 PM
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Indeed not. Representatives of the Commonwealth, one of the most diverse organisations on earth, will play its part in the Coronation festivities. No doubt about that!
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  #388  
Old 08-01-2018, 06:44 PM
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I've literally never, not even once, looked at the footage of that astonishing, moving and (even though I'm an atheist) deeply sacred event and thought to myself, 'do you know what this needs? More 'people of colour' to really make it work'. Good grief.
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  #389  
Old 08-01-2018, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Well remove John Setumu and I’m correct. It’s the Archbishop of Canterbury who crowns the monarch. All the great officers of state, all the hereditary peers, all the ‘great and the good ‘ are ‘white Anglo Saxon Protestants’.
The Earl Marshal - the senior non-royal Duke in the UK is not a Protestant. He and his ancestors (with one exception) are Roman Catholic and have never converted and yet kept that hereditary position from Henry VIII onwards (other than the time the title was withheld after Elizabeth I executed the holder of the title for treason - and he was a 'cousin' as well).

The Earl Marshal is the Duke of Norfolk and he will be instrumental in the planning of the coronation. He currently has the plans for the Queen's funeral, Philip's funeral, Charles' funeral, accession and coronation (and probably William's accession and coronation) already on his computer. It is part of his job. He may be white and Anglo-Saxon but he is most definitely not protestant and he will have a major part to play in the coronation.

That makes two of the major players who aren't 'white Anglo-Saxon protestants' at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curryong View Post
Indeed not. Representatives of the Commonwealth, one of the most diverse organisations on earth, will play its part in the Coronation festivities. No doubt about that!
As they did in 1953, 1937, 1911 and 1902 - as the empire and commonwealth troops were heavily involved in the parades etc that took place on coronation day.

The last coronation with no diversity on show at all was 1838 with Queen Victoria when there weren't empire troops involved.
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  #390  
Old 08-01-2018, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by PetticoatLane View Post
I've literally never, not even once, looked at the footage of that astonishing, moving and (even though I'm an atheist) deeply sacred event and thought to myself, 'do you know what this needs? More 'people of colour' to really make it work'. Good grief.
Be careful of what you say. They will come for you.

@Iluvbertie, as you know, the coronation is an entirely Anglican ceremony. The Duke of Norfolk is involved in the planning but doesn’t actually have any say in it.
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  #391  
Old 08-01-2018, 08:22 PM
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Charles' coronation most likely will reflect his mother's in almost every way except for changes that Charles himself would like to implement. Its a traditional ceremony that dates back into the reaches of history and will reflect that with all the pomp and the pageantry and the use of historical regal regalia and of course, Edward the Confessor's chair which was created in 1300. Its a ceremony of continuity of the monarchy of the UK.

Its a reflection of the past as much as it is a hope for the future. Its not to make a politically correct statement. Its not to enhance or portray the current climate of the UK nor is it a display of who's who but more a reenactment of the coronations of kings and queens that have come before and built the UK into what it is today.

Its what the British monarchy does best and it unites the people of the UK in celebration of their nation. Its the ceremony itself that is pertinent and not the players that participate so much. Some things stay unchanged for a reason and preserved as much as possible so that future generations can get a sense of continuity today as much as they did the day Queen Elizabeth I was crowned Queen and George III and George VI and so forth and so on. *That* is what really matters. At least to me.
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  #392  
Old 08-01-2018, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Well remove John Setumu and I’m correct. It’s the Archbishop of Canterbury who crowns the monarch. All the great officers of state, all the hereditary peers, all the ‘great and the good ‘ are ‘white Anglo Saxon Protestants’.
No, a number of the hereditary peers are actually Roman Catholic and not Protestant at all, including the Duke of Norfolk.
And I'm sure many representatives of Commonwealth countries will be people of color.

The Coronation ceremony has existed 1000 years, how do you propose they change it to be more inclusive?
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  #393  
Old 08-01-2018, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
@Iluvbertie, as you know, the coronation is an entirely Anglican ceremony. The Duke of Norfolk is involved in the planning but doesn’t actually have any say in it.
How can he be involved in planning it - and not be 'involved' in it. Of course he is involved in it - he is the leading peer and so has to actually be the Duke who takes the oath on behalf of all the other Dukes for instance.

He is one of the people who actually asks the congregation: "Sirs, I here present unto you Queen Elizabeth, your undoubted Queen: wherefore all you who are come this day to do your homage and service, are you willing to do the same?" - so he has something to even say in the ceremony.

There is more to the ceremony than just the 'religious' side. There is the acknowledgement and oaths. Sure the crowning and the communion is Anglican but the rest is largely ceremonial and could be done in a church or in a park and the Duke is heavily involved in that.

He takes an active part in the ceremony not just a side show and is front and centre throughout.
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  #394  
Old 08-01-2018, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Iluvbertie View Post
How can he be involved in planning it - and not be 'involved' in it. Of course he is involved in it - he is the leading peer and so has to actually be the Duke who takes the oath on behalf of all the other Dukes for instance.

He is one of the people who actually asks the congregation: "Sirs, I here present unto you Queen Elizabeth, your undoubted Queen: wherefore all you who are come this day to do your homage and service, are you willing to do the same?" - so he has something to even say in the ceremony.

There is more to the ceremony than just the 'religious' side. There is the acknowledgement and oaths. Sure the crowning and the communion is Anglican but the rest is largely ceremonial and could be done in a church or in a park and the Duke is heavily involved in that.

He takes an active part in the ceremony not just a side show and is front and centre throughout.
Again, Iluvbertie, you know better than this. What you’re trying to suggest is, that because the Earl Marshall is Roman Catholic, he somehow is influencing the coronation.

First we must remember the coronation is merely window dressing, it doesn’t make a king or queen.

As for the symbolism involved in the actual ceremony, it’s entirely Protestant. The RC church plays no part.

The Earl Marshal isn’t there as a catholic, it just happens the holder of the office is catholic.
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  #395  
Old 08-01-2018, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Again, Iluvbertie, you know better than this. What you’re trying to suggest is, that because the Earl Marshall is Roman Catholic, he somehow is influencing the coronation.

First we must remember the coronation is merely window dressing, it doesn’t make a king or queen.

As for the symbolism involved in the actual ceremony, it’s entirely Protestant. The RC church plays no part.

The Earl Marshal isn’t there as a catholic, it just happens the holder of the office is catholic.
I think you are reading things into Iluvbertie's response that were not there.

No one suggested that because the Duke of Norfolk is Roman Catholic he would try to put Catholic components into the Coronation--except you. And you were the one who originally said everyone involved was Protestant, which it was pointed out--they are not.
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  #396  
Old 08-01-2018, 09:26 PM
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I would imagine that if Charles were to consult someone on his own coronation, it would be the Earl Marshall himself and work things out with him. That's what the Earl Marshall does.

The role that the Duke of Norfolk will play in the coronation dates back even before the Church of England was established if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure Iluvbertie will correct me on this. I count on that.

The long line of the Dukes of Norfolk have *always* been Roman Catholic.
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  #397  
Old 08-01-2018, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Rudolph View Post
Again, Iluvbertie, you know better than this. What you’re trying to suggest is, that because the Earl Marshall is Roman Catholic, he somehow is influencing the coronation.

First we must remember the coronation is merely window dressing, it doesn’t make a king or queen.

As for the symbolism involved in the actual ceremony, it’s entirely Protestant. The RC church plays no part.

The Earl Marshal isn’t there as a catholic, it just happens the holder of the office is catholic.
Not just 'influencing it' but is crucial in its planning and execution. He has a major role to play. From the moment the last coronation ended the Earl Marshal - aka The Duke of Norfolk who is Roman Catholic - has been in charge of organising, planning and making sure things run smoothly. He most certainly does influence what happens on the day and throughout the ceremony. He has also planned the weddings and funerals in the intervening years - so he is fully conversant with planning CoE functions as it is part of his hereditary role even though personally he is Roman Catholic.

You made the comment that ALL the major players were 'white Anglo-Saxon protestants' which is incorrect. At least two of them aren't. Not hard to accept that fact is it?

If the man who plans the coronation isn't 'influencing' the coronation I would like to know what he is doing. If he gets a step in the planning wrong the entire thing can be a disaster. Fortunately he has the plans going back centuries in his family archives and so can see what worked in the past and what didn't.
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  #398  
Old 08-01-2018, 10:18 PM
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"Diversity, inclusive" doesn't only mean the presence of people with other skin colours but having people of other religions, women, homosexuals etc there. With the House of Lords in it's present form we will have all that and I'm 100% sure that Charles will see to it that him wanting to be a defender of all faiths is mirrored in the ceremony in the Abbey.
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  #399  
Old 08-01-2018, 10:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
I would imagine that if Charles were to consult someone on his own coronation, it would be the Earl Marshall himself and work things out with him. That's what the Earl Marshall does.

The role that the Duke of Norfolk will play in the coronation dates back even before the Church of England was established if I'm not mistaken. I'm sure Iluvbertie will correct me on this. I count on that.

The long line of the Dukes of Norfolk have *always* been Roman Catholic.
Charles and the Duke of Norfolk and the Queen have regular meetings on not only Charles' coronation but the various funerals - The Queen's, Philip's, Charles' and Camilla's.

It was to the Duke of Norfolk that the BRF turned in 1997 to get the plans for Diana's funeral as they used his plans for the Queen Mother's for Diana's and then again for the Queen Mums'.
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  #400  
Old 08-01-2018, 10:35 PM
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I seem to remember all that as it was brought up in the movie "The Queen" which I watch at any given opportunity.

Now I have a question that is bugging me. Is it correct to assume that the coronation ceremony role that the Duke of Norfolk plays was in existence before the Church of England was established in the reign of Henry VIII?

One thing I do know is that the practices of the CoE are very similar to that of the Roman Catholic church with the difference being one includes the Pope and the other one doesn't. Is it wrong to assume that the basic coronation ceremony that is used today is very similar to the one used when the monarchs were crowned in a Roman Catholic ceremony?

I love these kind of discussions.
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