Annual Engagements by Members of the Royal Family 2011-2013

[Iluvbertie]

HRH The Duchess of Kent did 8 engagements in 2012 - all associated with the big royal events such as the Jubilee which means my figures should be 'over by '8'

I have thus edited my original post to reflect that typo.

 

[Queen Camilla]

Does Camilla and Charles participating in Hogmanay count as a royal engagement?

 

[Iluvbertie]

That will depend on whether or not is makes it into the Court Circular. If it is in the CC it will be counted as an engagement but if not in the CC then it isn't an official engagement at all (and there were many of those throughout the year).

 

[Dman]

Duchess of Cambridge carried out over 100 engagements in first full year as royal:
Duchess of Cambridge carried out over 100 engagements in first full year as royal - Telegraph

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I have a question regarding the list. Most married couples on the list have a similar number of engagements. The Queen and the Duke, Edward and Sophie, William and Catherine etc.
Why such a large discrepancy between Charles and Camilla? I mean Charles carries out well over twice the number of engagements as his wife and I can't figure out what accounts for this.

 

[cepe]

I have a question regarding the list. Most married couples on the list have a similar number of engagements. The Queen and the Duke, Edward and Sophie, William and Catherine etc.
Why such a large discrepancy between Charles and Camilla? I mean Charles carries out well over twice the number of engagements as his wife and I can't figure out what accounts for this.

Good question. I took a random sample of days in December from the Court Circular. Charles has a great many engagements where he is patron, chairman etc of specific organisations and holds meetings - these he does on his own. Anything connection with the business side of the Duchy he seems to do on his own as well.

The Duchess also does engagements on her own - I chose at random the 12th December - Charles had 4 meetings at Clarence House; Camilla had 2 on her own including Battersea Dogs Home.

He also carries out investitures on his own.

I know this doesn't answer your question but it does give an indication that the main difference is meetings vs meeting the general public type of opportunity, which they tend to do together. However, his visit to the flooding in Wales he did on his own.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Thanks cepe. My other comment is, I think the Royals should do a better job of getting this information out to the public. I had no idea the Duke of York carries out 500 engagements a year and yet all he receives in the press is guff.

 

[cepe]

This is a hot topic. The media know about it but don't publicise. Only the Queen, and the Cambridges always get publicised; Prince of Wales sometimes and the rest - hardly ever. None of the overseas trips made by Anne, DoY, Wessex's, Gloucesters and Kents made any news at all.

Its on their website and in the court circular but only the Times publicises that - I don't know if its been offered to other newspapers.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Mr O'Donovan has, in the past, also sent his letter to The Telegraph. The way this article from The Telegraph reads it seems that he didn't this year but they are Mr O'Donovan's figures they are using, which do differ from mine as I pointed out in an earlier post by how much. Now I have to decide whether to spend the next three weeks going back and trying to figure out which engagements I counted that he didn't - or spend the time re-writing my programme for the new school year and preparing the Year 12 work for the year - Year 12 will win out - sorry.

This year is appears that the DM did its own count - and that comes out very differently to Mr O'Donovan's list. Mine is, largely more than Mr O'Donovan's but similar.

Charles does more than Camilla because he does a lot on his own. So do Edward and Sophie but they do a lot where they both attend and where they both open things together e.g. Charles and Camilla might visit somewhere and Charles open something - 2 to Charles and 1 to Camilla but Edward and Sophie might visit somewhere and then both open something - 2 each.

Kate carried out quite a number of engagements on her own or with other members of the family while William was on RAF duty and he also carried out a number alone.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

270 engagements for Camilla seems kind of low for someone married to the heir. Especially after seeing how many engagments the Queen's children perform as well as Sophie.

 

[cepe]

Mr O'Donovan has, in the past, also sent his letter to The Telegraph. The way this article from The Telegraph reads it seems that he didn't this year but they are Mr O'Donovan's figures they are using, which do differ from mine as I pointed out in an earlier post by how much. Now I have to decide whether to spend the next three weeks going back and trying to figure out which engagements I counted that he didn't - or spend the time re-writing my programme for the new school year and preparing the Year 12 work for the year - Year 12 will win out - sorry.

This year is appears that the DM did its own count - and that comes out very differently to Mr O'Donovan's list. Mine is, largely more than Mr O'Donovan's but similar.

Charles does more than Camilla because he does a lot on his own. So do Edward and Sophie but they do a lot where they both attend and where they both open things together e.g. Charles and Camilla might visit somewhere and Charles open something - 2 to Charles and 1 to Camilla but Edward and Sophie might visit somewhere and then both open something - 2 each.

Kate carried out quite a number of engagements on her own or with other members of the family while William was on RAF duty and he also carried out a number alone.

I think that what you have written might be a clue to the difference. You mnetioned previously that if (for example) the Earl and Countess go to X city and open a hospital (say) you counted that as 2 events. I can't remember the exact example you gave - sorry. But the court cicular would only count this as one.

You also mentioned recently that you wanted to give more detail and differentiate between the "lead" royal (ie both attend but one gave a speech) because the other one just attended. If you do this, I would say that there will be an even wider gap between your figures and the one's published annually. That doesn't particularly matter as both of you are unoffical anyway, but its just a thought.

It's amazing that you do this but don't give yourself more work than you need to.

And a big thank you as well.

General Comment
And can I also emphasis - this is not a competition so who did more than others isn't really relevant. The number of organisations someone can be linked to in over 40 years is very different from those of only 7 years (or even 18 months)

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

I realise its not a competition but the public and press seem to make a big deal out of the number of engagements the Royals carry out and 270 seems on the low side in my opinion.
If Catherine's total after 7 1/2 years is 270 , the press will form a lynch mob.

 

[Iluvbertie]

It is hard for Camilla in some ways as she is limited by the number of charities that she has and there are many charities that don't want her and she also started working so much later than others so has taken time to build up a range of charities.

My count has her over 339.

The Queen's children had been involved all their lives and so know no other style of life and Sophie also had a working background and a 6 year head start. Sophie also gets a lot of credit for joint engagements - as I spelt out above - which Camilla doesn't get.

On their different tours the number of times that Sophie and Edward went somewhere together was much greater than for Camilla - she did more on her own but Charles did a lot more on his own.

Camilla started her working life at an age when most people are retiring.

A comparison with the overseas tours:

PNG, Australia, NZ - Charles did 80 and Camilla 60. At least 30 of Charles engagments were solo but Camilla also did about 10 solo so only about 50 of them were accompanying Charles.
Caribbean - Edward 76 and Sophie 80 but there were only about 6 occasions when they weren't together so 74 of Sophie's engagements were done while accompanying Edward.

It is for this reason that I am going to be adding in the 'accompanied' column this year so that it can be seen how often Philip, Camilla, Kate, Sophie etc get a credit for accompanying their spouse. The interesting one with regard to that is The Duchess of Gloucester who rarely accompanies her husband.

 

[cepe]

Its not a big deal - its a slow news day in the UK. All forgotten in a few days time. This is the main news along with sport and someone called "Fiscal Cliff"

 

[sthreats]

Really appreciate all the work you do tabulating this. Why does Sophie get credit for joint engagements and Camilla does not?

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

^^^^ Thanks for the breakdown and I like Camilla so I wasn't bashing her, just trying to understand the difference in totals and thanks to you Iluvbertie, I've got a handle on it now.

 

[Iluvbertie]

Really appreciate all the work you do tabulating this. Why does Sophie get credit for joint engagements and Camilla does not?

Camilla does get credit for joint engagements.

Where I give 2 credits is where the CC records say Edward and Sophie visiting a town and then opening the new hospital wing - 2 each.

Usually if Charles and Camilla visit a town Charles will open the new place on his own according to the CC and so that is 2 to Charles and 1 to Camilla as she visited with him but he also did the official part of the day.

With Edward and Sophie they would jointly pull the cord or whatever while Camilla would sit and watch her husband do it.

If the CC reports that they both opened xxx then they both get that credit.

e.g. HRH The Prince of Wales and HRH The Duchess of Cornwall visited xxxxx and HRH The Prince of Wales opened the new hospital wing. (2 to Charles and 1 to Camilla)

HRH The Earl of Wessex and HRH The Countess of Wessex visited yyyy and TRH The Earl and Countess of Wessex opened the new school library. (2 each)

 

[Spheno]

Iluvbertie,
why do you insist to count 'opens' as separate engagement?
'Opens" don't require additional preparation or traveling and take only a few minutes.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I count it separately on occasions as it depends on what else is going on - often when it says 'visit' there may be a long list of things that they do during the visit or sometimes 'visit' might be all that is recorded.

I am using an example only.

e.g. HRH The Prince of Wales visited xxxxx

that might be all that is there for that engagement.

Then there is HRH The Prince of Wales visited xxxxx and had luncheon and then opened - is that the same as just visiting or is there more involved??


Opening something is a lot than a few minutes as there are usually speeches to be listened to, and a speech to be delivered before pulling the cord or whatever.

 

[Duke-of-Earl]

Hard-working Kate sets a Royal standard | UK | Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express

The Duchess of Cambridge plans to take things easier this year, but the Queen and Prince Philip have vowed no let-up in 2013.

HM and the Duke of Edinburgh are just amazing

(If this isn't the right thread, maybe the Mods can move my post )

 

[Iluvbertie]

This article is using Mr O'Donovan's figures - which have become the de facto official figures in light of the fact that BP doesn't issue an official count at all.

 

[cepe]

This may be stating the obvious but 2012 was Jubilee year and all of the BRF undertook more engagements because of it.

I don't expect the number of engagements to be as high for 2013, but no doubt, Jubilee year will be used as a stick to beat them with (so to speak) by the media

 

[Iluvbertie]

I agree. One of the reasons why I chose to do my survey in 2012 was to see many they did in the Jubilee year so a comparison with 2013 will be interesting.

It is even interesting that given all the duties done in 2012 that Charles' number actually dropped according to Mr O'Donovan.

Of course the drop-off in duties, if it occurs, will be seen as a negative rather than accounting for the extra in 2012 due to the Jubilee and the Olympics and Paralympics. According to Mr O'Donovan's figures there were over 500 engagements done extra in 2012 to 2011 (and it is only fair to compare like with like in my opinion).

 

[Osipi]

I realise its not a competition but the public and press seem to make a big deal out of the number of engagements the Royals carry out and 270 seems on the low side in my opinion.
If Catherine's total after 7 1/2 years is 270 , the press will form a lynch mob.

The wonderful thing with Iluvbertie's tabulations is that we here watch it all unfold week to week as we read the other subforums about what they did. I find it totally fascinating!

I'd really be willing to bet that the tabulations here are closer to the mark than what anyone else has posted because someone has taken the time and energy to compile and do this on a weekly basis for us.

 

[teapot]

That will depend on whether or not is makes it into the Court Circular. If it is in the CC it will be counted as an engagement but if not in the CC then it isn't an official engagement at all (and there were many of those throughout the year).

I admire your hard work on the this task Iluvbertie! I was just looking over the CC for some of Pss Anne's engagements and noticed that her recent visit to Afghanistan is only mentioned as a "return to Heathrow airport". Which I assume means nothing in the numbers game, despite visits to her official regiments. Does this mean the BRF probably do even more than reported?

 

[Lumutqueen]

Does this mean the BRF probably do even more than reported?

Yes. But it depends on how and what you count.

 

[scooter]

Yes. But it depends on how and what you count.

Yes, for example if they are flying to a state visit , they count getting on the plane after shaking hands with a few people as an engagement. Most of us would call it going to the airport.

 

[VictoriaB]

Yes, for example if they are flying to a state visit , they count getting on the plane after shaking hands with a few people as an engagement. Most of us would call it going to the airport.

I think Bertie has said she does not count this as an engagement, whether Mr O'Donovan does is a question for him but given his numbers are lower than Bertie's it would seem doubtful.

They did get a tick for sitting in the stands watching the Olympics like any other spectator though. Personally I wouldn't call that a working engagement, nor would I call watching a film work - I suppose it depends whether you are wearing jeans or an evening gown LOL.

I appreciate there has to be an objective standard though and I can't just pick and choose what I call working engagements and what I call entertainment which no doubts differs from what others would count. I think Bertie has the right method by counting what appears in the Court Circular minus arriving at airports - that takes value judgements out of the process.

 

[EIIR]

The difficulty with saying that watching a film or shaking someone's hand is not an engagement is that it fundamentally underestimates what's involved with that.

Let's say Prince William is attending the royal premiere of a film. That premiere will actually be in aid of one or more charities, often the benevolent fund for those who work in the arts and fall on hard times, or for veterans' charities. So, William has to be briefed before he goes on who exactly he's going to meet and understand a little on their roles and backgrounds. He has to know the exact sequence of events when he arrives. He'll be introduced to the great and the good from the British film industry, the company which owns the cinema, probably BAFTA (of which William is president), the charity's representatives, as well as many actors and film crew who all want their moment with a prince.

There's also very likely to be a drinks reception before or after the film with major donors and supporters of the arts in the UK. William may well have to give a speech about the charity or the creative industries or whatever. He has to know as much as he can about who he's meeting so that the evening is a success for all concerned.

So 'attending a film' can certainly be work, probably enjoyable work, but requiring a certain degree of preparation when it's an official royal engagement.

 

[Iluvbertie]

I admire your hard work on the this task Iluvbertie! I was just looking over the CC for some of Pss Anne's engagements and noticed that her recent visit to Afghanistan is only mentioned as a "return to Heathrow airport". Which I assume means nothing in the numbers game, despite visits to her official regiments. Does this mean the BRF probably do even more than reported?

The Royal Family do a lot more than is reported officially in the CC although there is stuff that is reported as well that doesn't make the CC e.g. Eugenie's event with the children before Christmas or opening the TCT with her mother and even presenting a medal at the Paralympics - none in the CC although Anne's presentation of a medal was listed.

With trips to Afghanistan I suspect that the reason they aren't in the CC is security. As they end up in the CC the day after the event and usually the royal is still either on the ground or enroute home they keep that secret uptil they return but tend not to do an addendum to an already published CC.

In addition to the engagements that are listed is the correspondence - both official and unofficial and not just The Queen and her boxes is involved here. Many people write to a royal for help and that royal reads the letter and replies and usually passes the letter to the appropriate authority. They don't necessarily actually do anyhing other than acknowledge the letter to the sender and pass the letter on to the right place with a note attached for the right people's consideration.

There are also officially mentioned meetings with their charities along with unofficial meetings with them.

I think that the highest profile event that doesn't make the CC each year is the Braemar Gathering - never in the CC.