Unequal Marriages

[Meraude]

Originally Posted by Sven-Fredrik

Prince Carl Bernadotte, duke of östergötland married Countess Ebba von Rosen. Became Prince of Bernadotte later on.
Prince Oscar, duke of gotland (second son of oscar II) married Ebba Henrietta Munck of fulkila. Became Count Of wisborg
Prince Carl Johan, duke of dalarna married first a real commoner, and later on (1988) Countess Gunilla Wachtmeister of Johannihus. Became Count of wisborg.

All of these three has have their titles taken away from them and frozen out from the royal society in sweden. Why is that? Their brides isn't commoners.

According to Nordisk Familjebok from 1924, 839-840 (Nordisk familjebok / Uggleupplagan. 36. Supplement. Globe - Kövess) , under the word Jämbördig (equal) explained the phrase "enskild man" as a man who isn't a member of a reining royal dynasty, or if he is a member isn't in the line of succession for some reason. "Enskild man" doesn't only apply to commoners, it applies to every man who isn't in line in the succession in a reigning royal dynasty. None of the ladies above had a father who was a member of a reigning royal dynasty, and thus they were "enskild mans dotter" and their marriages was unequal.

There is an explanation there why lady Louise Mountbatten was considered equal, there is an exception if the woman herself is in the line of succession in her own right, as Louise was in line for the British throne through her moter, being a great-granddaugher of queen Victoria. I would guess that the same was true in the case of princess Sibylla of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, also a great-granddaughter of queen Victoria.

[Furienna]

But the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha family were also royals in their own right, even if they had lost their status after the WWI.

[wok_kym]

I have a question that it may be silly.
I had heard many people talking about the fact that Crownprincess Victoria married a commoner but wasn't Queen Silvia a commoner? I understand she is a descendant of a portuguese king and his concubine, is that why?
She is never considered as a commoner.

[Lumutqueen]

I think after a period of time, and the amount of work a Queen does people forget her background. Silvia is a commoner, married to a royal. Just like Daniel. But you wouldn't think it to look at her.

[Furienna]

Daniel is not special because he's a commoner, but because of two other reasons:

1: He'll be our first prince consort (that is, husband of a regent queen) for three hundred years. That last one was Fredrik of Hesse, the husband of Ulrika Eleonora Jr (who also is our latest regent queen), and he later became king, because his wife abdicated in his favor.
2: He'll be our first consort of a monarch for four hundred years, who's born in Sweden and has Swedish as his mother tongue. The last one was Gunilla Bielke, the second wife of Johan III.

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Furienna

Daniel is not special because he's a commoner, but because of two other reasons:

1: He'll be our first prince consort (that is, husband of a regent queen) for three hundred years. That last one was Fredrik of Hesse, the husband of Ulrika Eleonora Jr (who also is our latest regent queen), and he later became king, because his wife abdicated in his favor.
2: He'll be our first consort of a monarch for four hundred years, who's born in Sweden and has Swedish as his mother tongue. The last one was Gunilla Bielke, the second wife of Johan III.

None of that changes the fact that he is a commoner, like his mother-in-law.

[Furienna]

So is the queen and crown princess of Norway. It doesn't matter anymore.

[wok_kym]

i understand that Furienna and i thank you both, but i am sure i heard people saying that it was the first time a royal in sweden married a commoner in a long time or ever, I cannot remember.
I saw it also being said by Herman Lindqvist (which i don't admire but still)!

[Furienna]

That's not true, since Silvia was a commoner as well (albeit with a distant Portuguese royal background).

[Lumutqueen]

Originally Posted by Furienna

So is the queen and crown princess of Norway. It doesn't matter anymore.

Depends who you're talking to on whether it matters or not. There are quite a few commoner to royal marriages these day the exception being Mathilde and the future Princess Stephanie.

[Boris]

Originally Posted by wok_kym

i understand that Furienna and i thank you both, but i am sure i heard people saying that it was the first time a royal in sweden married a commoner in a long time or ever, I cannot remember.
I saw it also being said by Herman Lindqvist (which i don't admire but still)!

Lindqvist (and others) are correct in a certain way when they talk about 'A Swedish Royal' not having married a commoner in a long time, because Carl Gustaf was not 'A Royal' when he married commoner Silvia Sommerlath, but he was 'THE Monarch'.
(And by law didn't need any consent to this marriage but his own.)

Btw., the story about Silvia's mother Alice de Toledo descending from an illegitimate child of a Portuguese Royal is a fairy tale, as far as I know.

[Meraude]

Originally Posted by Furienna

But the Saxe-Coburg and Gotha family were also royals in their own right, even if they had lost their status after the WWI.

The same could be said about the Battenbergs, queen Louise's father had been prince Louis of Battenberg before he relinquished that title in 1917 and became marquess of Milford Haven.

Originally Posted by wok_kym

i understand that Furienna and i thank you both, but i am sure i heard people saying that it was the first time a royal in sweden married a commoner in a long time or ever, I cannot remember.

Wasn't the comment about marrying a Swedish commoner, Silvia was a German commoner when she became engaged to king Carl Gustaf, and although she got her Swedish citizenship before the wedding, I think most people still thought of her as a not being Swedish when she got married. Daniel is the first Swedish-born commoner marrying into the SRF and becoming a royal himself.

[MagMil]

Originally Posted by Meraude

Wasn't the comment about marrying a Swedish commoner, Silvia was a German commoner when she became engaged to king Carl Gustaf, and although she got her Swedish citizenship before the wedding, I think most people still thought of her as a not being Swedish when she got married. Daniel is the first Swedish-born commoner marrying into the SRF and becoming a royal himself.

See Boris's post#31, he explain pretty well
Thanks Boris

[Hans-Rickard]

Originally Posted by Meraude

The same could be said about the Battenbergs, queen Louise's father had been prince Louis of Battenberg before he relinquished that title in 1917 and became marquess of Milford Haven.

It was indeed a loud discussion in Sweden back then about that. Many proffesors protested against this marriage. But the King back then Gustaf V considered her as a member Of the british royal house and approved the marriage.

[wok_kym]

Those are the explainations I was looking for! thanks!

[An Ard Ri]

Was Louise Lutheran or Church of England?

[Hans-Rickard]

Originally Posted by An Ard Ri

Was Louise Lutheran or Church of England?

Church of England. They were married in the Chapel Royal at St James Palace by the archbishop of canterbury.

[NGalitzine]

Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard

It was indeed a loud discussion in Sweden back then about that. Many proffesors protested against this marriage. But the King back then Gustaf V considered her as a member Of the british royal house and approved the marriage.

As I recall the story George V sent the Swedish Cout a list of those who were members of the British Royal Family and Lady Louise Mountbatten was on the list. She had been on the list as Princess Louise of Battenberg and remained on the list after the 1917 title changes.

[An Ard Ri]

Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard

Church of England. They were married in the Chapel Royal at St James Palace by the archbishop of canterbury.

Many Thanks!

[Meraude]

Originally Posted by Boris

Lindqvist (and others) are correct in a certain way when they talk about 'A Swedish Royal' not having married a commoner in a long time, because Carl Gustaf was not 'A Royal' when he married commoner Silvia Sommerlath, but he was 'THE Monarch'.

If regarding the king as monarch and not royal then it's very possible that Daniel is the first ever commoner to marry a royal, at least after the accession of Gustav Vasa, as Gustav Vasa, Erik XIV and Johan III who all married commoners (non-royal noble women) were all monarchs when they got married.