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  #141  
Old 10-07-2019, 03:07 PM
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The kings decision is forward thinking, but I would’ve preferred these changes were never made in this reign.
Once Victoria was Queen, she could’ve streamlined the royal house.
I understand why Leonore was made a Princess, and thereafter it wouldn’t have been fair to the kings other grandchildren to not be HRH Prince/Princess.
Even without the HRH, they are still Prince and Princess - how is life going to be easier?
As regards to Carl Philip being the senior most fanatic member of the house of Bernadotte (after his father), and not being able to pass on his titles to his children - they’re trying to be equal. If Madeleine can’t, Carl Philip can’t.
In due course his heir will be the senior most agnatic member of the house of Bernadotte and nothing can change that
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  #142  
Old 10-07-2019, 03:27 PM
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Going back to my previous question, what’s the substantive difference between a Prince of Sweden and just a Prince?

Do the titles carry any privileges or benefits?
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  #143  
Old 10-07-2019, 03:29 PM
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It distinguishes between members of the Royal House and those of the Royal Family.

Prince of Sweden =HRH

Prince X has no style
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  #144  
Old 10-07-2019, 04:30 PM
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It seems that, by losing their HRH style, the children are officially no longer "prince/princess of Sweden" and will only retain the prefix of prince/princess before their names as a matter of courtesy, like the King's sisters who married unequally. CP's and Madeleine's grandchildren on the other hand will be untitled.


There is still a legal confusion, however, about the line od succession, which I hope the Court will clarify. The Act of Succession says that "The right of succession to the throne of Sweden is vested in the male and female descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf," CP's and Madeleine's grandchildren will stiil be "male and female descendants of King Carl XVI Gustaf" and, accordingly, my understanding is that they will still be in the line of succession even if they are untitled. Removing their succession rights would require an amendment to the Act of Succession, which could only be enacted in accordance with the special procedure laid out in the Instrument of Government.



The Act of Sucession, however, lists several situations that cause someone in the line of succession to lose his/her succession rights, for example, not professing the Lutheran faith as adopted by the Church of Sweden, marrying without the consent of the Swedish government upon application by the King, or becoming the head of a foreign State without approval of the King and the Parliament of Sweden, The problem is that all the aforementioned conditions apply specifically in the text to "princes and princesses of the Royal House".


Prior to today's announcement, there was an assumption that "princes and princesses of the Royal House" included in theory all persons in the line of succession , but that does not seem to be the case now as, according to the official statement by the Court, CP's and Madeleine's children are no longer princes/princesses of the Royal House, but remain nonetheless in the line of succession. If we now interpret the Act of Succession literally then, the conclusion is that they are now free to change their religious denomination, marry without consent, or become another country's sovereign without consent and still retain their right of succession to the Swedish throne, whereas, for Estelle and Oscar, all the former restrictions still apply.



So, let's assume an unlikely scenario where Estelle and Oscar for some reason are disqualified from the succession together with their descendants, for example for marrying without consent, and Alexander is now direct in line to the throne after his father, but Alexander himself also married without consent or converted to Roman Catholicism. Could the restrictions in the Act of Succession apply retroactively to him then (since they didn't apply before when he was no longer a prince of the Royal House) ?



As I said, it looks very confusing to me because titles have been separated from succession rights (which is OK), but certain important rules affecting the succession seem to apply to titled persons only.



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  #145  
Old 10-07-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The Act of Sucession, however, lists several situations that cause someone in the line of succession to lose his/her succession rights, for example, not professing the Lutheran faith as adopted by the Church of Sweden, marrying without the consent of the Swedish government upon application by the King, or becoming the head of a foreign State without approval of the King and the Parliament of Sweden, The problem is that all the aforementioned conditions apply specifically in the text to "princes and princesses of the Royal House".
It's rather odd, because while most of the Act of Succession specifies by "Prince and princesses of the royal house" §4 has the additional paragraph: "Den av kungl. familjen som ej sig till samma lära bekänner, vare från all successionsrätt utesluten." / He or she of the royal family, who does not confess to the same faith, will be excluded from all succession rights.

But the sentence about being raised in the realm just covers "princes and princesses of the royal house." and permission of marriage is the same.

So, as long as the descendant with no title presumably follows the Lutheran faith he or she will remain in the line of the Swedish succession?
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  #146  
Old 10-07-2019, 04:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess B View Post
In due course his heir will be the senior most agnatic member of the house of Bernadotte and nothing can change that

As the current Duke of Gloucester is the most senior agnatic member of the House of Windsor and nobody in the UK cares.



We may be attached to tradition, but being the most senior agnate is only relevant when agnatic succession is used, which is no longer the case either in Sweden or the UK.


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Originally Posted by norwegianne View Post
It's rather odd, because while most of the Act of Succession specifies by "Prince and princesses of the royal house" §4 has the additional paragraph: "Den av kungl. familjen som ej sig till samma lära bekänner, vare från all successionsrätt utesluten." / He or she of the royal family, who does not confess to the same faith, will be excluded from all succession rights.

But the sentence about being raised in the realm just covers "princes and princesses of the royal house." and permission of marriage is the same.

That is right, thanks ! I hadn't noticed that the provision about professing the pure Evangelical faith applied to any member of the Royal Family and not only to "princes and princesses of the Royal House". So I stand corrected in that particular point. My questions are still valid though as far as marriage without consent is concerned for example.
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  #147  
Old 10-07-2019, 04:52 PM
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I think this is a super wise decision, though I am surprised it has been done as I thought there was no way of it happening now Oscar is 3. However, thinking about it I guess these things probably take time to work through, discussions within the family, staff and advisors and the government.

It makes sense to relieve the pressure off the grandchildren so they can pursue what future they wish. Realistically with so many grandchildren there was never going to be a way for so many of them to work "officially" for the RF in the future.
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  #148  
Old 10-07-2019, 05:27 PM
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I think this was a sensible decision that should have been made when Princess Leonor was born, since she's the eldest grandchild that has been affected by these laws. I've always thought that giving *all* Carl Philip and Madeleine's children their own dukedom (I know this won't be changed by the laws) was a bit much; so I'm pleased to see Carl Gustaf has taken the right approach.
I liked the photo of Victoria, Estelle and Carl Gustaf too.
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  #149  
Old 10-07-2019, 05:49 PM
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Well, this was interesting news to wake up to! I do think it is the right decision and hopefully the questions around the succession requirements will be answered with time.

Like others, I long suspected they'd change the rules so that Carl-Philips' grandchildren would not hold titles. They couldn't really let his descendants continue to hold royal titles in perpetuity simply because they are the agnatic heirs. The real shame here, as in Norway, is that the King can't create new titles. Being able to issue titles like Count of Monpezat/Orange-Nassau is such a tidy, easy way to deal with this issue. It would be nice for Sweden to create a one-off noble title for these descendants to bear but I doubt their parliament is overly concerned with whether the monarch's future great-greatchildren are titled or not.

The only really shocking bit is that the Princely titles won't be shared by spouses. It is odd to think in 30 years we'll be talking about Prince Alexander, Duke of Sodermanland and his wife Mrs. _____ Bernadotte (presumably). But it is another good way to cut down on the amount of Princes and Princesses in the country. I wonder if we'll see something similar in other families moving forward. Will Sverre Magnus' wife not be a Princess either? It is definitely a knee jerk reaction that the wife of a Prince/daughter-in-law of a King not to have a title but plenty of sons-in-law to monarchs are untitled so it is equitable. I could see Denmark having Joachim's daughters-in-law simply be titled as Countesses of Monpezat (if titled at all) rather than Princesses. Belgium could also consider it in the future considering all four of Philippe's children will pass on royal titles to their children and that will be a LOT of Princes/Princesses within a couple of generations.
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  #150  
Old 10-07-2019, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by HereditaryPrincess View Post
I think this was a sensible decision that should have been made when Princess Leonor was born, since she's the eldest grandchild that has been affected by these laws. I've always thought that giving *all* Carl Philip and Madeleine's children their own dukedom (I know this won't be changed by the laws) was a bit much; so I'm pleased to see Carl Gustaf has taken the right approach.
I liked the photo of Victoria, Estelle and Carl Gustaf too.
The duchies were not taken away because the King probably thought it would be unfair to the children and especially to the involved provinces. Going forward, Oscar ‘s children for example probably won’t get any duchy and won’t be princes either.
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  #151  
Old 10-07-2019, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by carina_a View Post
[...] only wish that they had made up their mind before giving all the children titles then taking it away.
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Originally Posted by W.Y.CII View Post
But it's strange that they granted the style but later decide to take them back.
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Originally Posted by Zaira View Post
I always believed this would happen sooner tbh and wonder that it didn't happen before the children were born.
All of the King's grandchildren had already been born as of the summer of 2018, when a committee in Parliament announced that it planned to limit the number of royals who would be awarded public money in the next generation.

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/kun...kungafamiljen/

The King must have been apprehensive of the likelihood that unless he voluntarily accepted a limit on the number of publicly funded grandchildren, he or Victoria would be coerced into doing so at a later date.



The core and largest change is that Princes Alexander, Gabriel and Nicolas and Princesses Leonore and Adrienne will no longer have the right to financial support from taxpayers and will have the right and expectation of working for their own living - and that is how it is seen in the Swedish press, based on the coverage. The removal of their HRH styles and membership in the Royal House is merely in recognition of this basic change in their future expectations, as HRHs traditionally had the right to a public role.
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  #152  
Old 10-07-2019, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
Sweden relinquished agnatic primogeniture in 1980. So CP's "unbroken male lineage" doesn't really hold any kind of official value anymore and as such, giving him preferential treatment over his sister on the basis of his sex would seem absolutely absurd. Especially in a forward-thinking country like Sweden. As CP isn't a part of the Swedish nobility, whether or not nobility is passed in the male lineage is completely irrelevant. It's nothing new that Swedish royal dukedoms are life dukedoms.

"Kind and generous" of him With that logic, I guess it was also very kind and generous of the King's four sisters to accept that they were deemed unusable because of their gender without making any fuss about it.



Do you also feel sad about all the firstborn women who were denied their birthright on the basis of their sex?
The nobility is an ancient institution going back to the end of the first millennium. In almost all countries is chosen not to change these rules. Yes, Prince Carl Philip belongs to the royal family, not to the nobility. But now we reach a situation that the only son of the country's first family can not pass the ancestral title while all eldest sons of all titled noble families can. Prince Carl Philip is a legal and direct male agnate of a prestigious family.

Daniel Westling has added the surname Bernadotte to his own name. His children are the procreation of the Royal House of Sweden, which has been formed by various families in it's long history. Carl Philip Bernadotte is in the centuries old tradition the procreation of the Bernadotte dynasty. It would be weird that exactly this line would lose all historic honorifics. I guess in due time a prudent and courteous solution will be found as I am sure also his sister, Princess Victoria, is aware and proud of her ancestral House, it's history and tradition and of her brother, Sweden's last Crown Prince.
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  #153  
Old 10-07-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Princess B View Post
The kings decision is forward thinking, but I would’ve preferred these changes were never made in this reign.
Once Victoria was Queen, she could’ve streamlined the royal house.
The king may have thought it was better for him to make these changes than for Victoria. Because in his case, all of them are his grandchildren but for Victoria it is own children vs nieces and nephews, so that may be perceived differently.

Based on the posts by Madeleine and CP & Sofia, my guess is that it was most likely Madeleine who asked for this to happen (and she would maybe even have been fine had her children lost their princely titles and duchies as well); and CP & Sofia arguing for their children remaining princes and keeping their duchies. So, this seems a middle ground that all can live with.

The part I don't fully understand (but maybe that's what you are discussing) is how this change can lead to a loosening of the regulations in terms of schooling for Madeleine's children to remain in line to the throne...

My other question would be what surname/titles we might expect for CP's grandchildren but that was probably wisely left open by the king. Queen Victoria (or the king himself) can deal with it when the time comes - and hopefully not 5 years later ).
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  #154  
Old 10-07-2019, 06:43 PM
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This makes sense to me.. it always seemed mad that the children of plain Mr O'Neill, [who didn't deign to accept the title offered him], should be Royal Highnesses.
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  #155  
Old 10-07-2019, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The nobility is an ancient institution going back to the end of the first millennium. In almost all countries is chosen not to change these rules. Yes, Prince Carl Philip belongs to the royal family, not to the nobility. But now we reach a situation that the only son of the country's first family can not pass the ancestral title while all eldest sons of all titled noble families can. Prince Carl Philip is a legal and direct male agnate of a prestigious family.

Daniel Westling has added the surname Bernadotte to his own name. His children are the procreation of the Royal House of Sweden, which has been formed by various families in it's long history. Carl Philip Bernadotte is in the centuries old tradition the procreation of the Bernadotte dynasty. It would be weird that exactly this line would lose all historic honorifics. I guess in due time a prudent and courteous solution will be found as I am sure also his sister, Princess Victoria, is aware and proud of her ancestral House, it's history and tradition and of her brother, Sweden's last Crown Prince.
I imagine that the Crown Princess is very aware and proud of her ancestral house, as she will be the head of it the day her father passes. Its long history, traditions, and honorifics will continue to pass through her line.

The idea that this is somehow dependent on X/Y chromosomes is quite frankly completely outdated in Swedish society today, and I imagine that their solution, were it possible, would be to change the nobility to primogeniture as well. However the nobility is politically insignificant in Sweden at this point and most "normal people" don't give it much, if any, interest.
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  #156  
Old 10-07-2019, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by katiebird View Post
I imagine that the Crown Princess is very aware and proud of her ancestral house, as she will be the head of it the day her father passes. Its long history, traditions, and honorifics will continue to pass through her line.

The idea that this is somehow dependent on X/Y chromosomes is quite frankly completely outdated in Swedish society today, and I imagine that their solution, were it possible, would be to change the nobility to primogeniture as well. However the nobility is politically insignificant in Sweden at this point and most "normal people" don't give it much, if any, interest.
Well if Sweden is a really modern and egalitarian society, maybe it should abolish the monarchy and the nobity alltogether anyway. If a country choses to preserve an ancient institution and does not want to change the rules because a) it is an historic institution frozen in time and b) a modernization would rather revive (!) this institution than slowly let it become extinct by lack of male heirs, then we have to take this as a starting point.

As said, the children of Daniel Westling are the procreation of the Royal House. The children of Carl Philip Bernadotte are the procreation of the legal male agnatic line from Marshal Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte. If even this is feed for discussion, we better end all monarchies otherwise were is the end? Gender discrimination? And then age discrimination because why the eldest and not the middle child? Etc.
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  #157  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:04 PM
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I asked this earlier and got no response so it may be that we don’t have an answer. So I thought I would ask again to bump my question down the line. Because of the changes that were made today, will Prince Alexander, as the Duke of Sodermanland, still have the rights to stenhammer? I am not sure what that entails.
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  #158  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by temhbobo View Post
I asked this earlier and got no response so it may be that we don’t have an answer. So I thought I would ask again to bump my question down the line. Because of the changes that were made today, will Prince Alexander, as the Duke of Sodermanland, still have the rights to stenhammer? I am not sure what that entails.
The testament governing Stenhammar states that it should be leased to a "prince of the reigning royal house who has rights of succession to the throne", and that if there is more than one prince who meet the prerequisites, the Duke of Södermanland takes priority.

Historia — Stenhammars Godsförvaltning
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  #159  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The testament governing Stenhammar states that it should be leased to a "prince of the reigning royal house who has rights of succession to the throne", and that if there is more than one prince who meet the prerequisites, the Duke of Södermanland takes priority.

Historia — Stenhammars Godsförvaltning
That sounds as if the estate should go to Oscar, as he is the only prince of the reigning royal house and will be upon Victoria's reign. Am I reading that right?
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  #160  
Old 10-07-2019, 07:16 PM
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I'm certainly not an expert on this but is there even anything CG or Victoria could do in regards to titles for CP's children/grandchildren if they wanted to?

The monarch can no longer create nobility and from my cursory googling no one has been ennobled in Sweden since 1902. Seeing as the only way to be ennobled was by the Monarch it is not like there is precedent in the Government awarding noble titles. It would seem extraordinary for parliament to reopen the Nobility after nearly 120 years and begin ennobling citizens, much less that CG or Victoria would ask for that to be done.

I always saw the issue as only having two resolutions: All of CP's male-line descendants remain in the Royal House and are styled HRH with a Princely and Ducal Title (which is untenable) or that they eventually become commoners.

It doesn't seem like a question of does CG or Victoria value history or recognition of the agnatic Bernadotte line, it is does the government?
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