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  #121  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:34 PM
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I was always amazed that the children of Madeleine were styled HRH and given the title of Prince/Princess of Sweden seeing as they are not based in Sweden nor have been for some time.Prince or Princess Princess of Bernadotte might have been and option or Count/Countess of Bernadotte.

This deceision will possibly affect the Royal Coats of Arms issued for the children of both Carl Phillip/Madeleine as they're no longer HRH Princess/Princess of Sweden.

Princess Leonore
26 February 2014 - 6 October 2019: Her Royal Highness Princess Leonore Lilian Maria, Duchess of Gotland

7 October 2019 onwards : Princess Leonore Lilian Maria, Duchess of Gotland.
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  #122  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:35 PM
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It was strange that the King granted Madeleine's children of title/style and dukedom in the first place and now stripping them off of the HRH style including Carl-Philip's children. I wonder what prompted him to change his mind.

I mean, he could have let this thing go and leave it to the next generation. Either way, when Victoria succeeds, both Carl-Philip and Madeleine's family will no longer be part of the Royal House.

I'm feeling more bitter about Carl-Philip's children since he is a direct male descendant.

But yes, maybe not stripping them off of HRH but reducing it to HH would be better.

Sad.
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  #123  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
It was strange that the King granted her grandchildren of the title/style and dukedom in the first place and now stripping them off of the HRH style. I wonder what prompted him to change his mind.

I mean, he could have let this thing go and leave it to the next generation. Either way, when Victoria succeeds, both Carl-Philip and Madeleine's family will no longer be part of the Royal House.

But yes, maybe not stripping them off of HRH but reducing it to HH would be better.
Possibly the policy was followed, not knowing there would be such fruitful marriages. Look at Luxembourg, where the eldest child of the Grand-Duke's second child still is the future heiress. Once the King applied this policy, naturally he did not want to treat his grandchildren in A- and B-category, but now we have advanced a few years, naturally the King thought it was wise to review the arrangements.
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  #124  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
They just enjoy the personal title of prince without being a Prince of the Royal House.

The Swedes lack the possibility to use a dynastical, eventually hereditary title like Count of Nassau (Luxembourg), Count of Orange-Nassau (Netherlands), Count de Monpezat, Count of Rosenborg, Count of Federiksborg (Denmark).
There could be the possibility to use the title of Prince Bernadotte. According to the lawyers of Count Sigvard Bernadotte and some other legal experts Jean Baptiste Bernadotte formally never relinquished that title since the agreed terms of him doing so was never fulfilled by the Swedish government.
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  #125  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:46 PM
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I really don't find this all that strange.

When Leonore was born she was only the second child of her generation in the line of succession after Estelle and there was no guarantee Victoria and Daniel would have anymore children. I'm sure Carl Gustaf's experience influenced Leonore being an HRH. And it would have been awkward for Leonore's siblings to not be HRH if she was and even more strange for Carl Philip's children given they are higher in the succession.

As for why the change now rather than leaving it to Victoria--well the children are young, they don't really know they have lost something with the HRH being stripped from them. Better now than when they are teenagers or adults.
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  #126  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by O-H Anglophile View Post
I really don't find this all that strange.

When Leonore was born she was only the second child of her generation in the line of succession after Estelle and there was no guarantee Victoria and Daniel would have anymore children. I'm sure Carl Gustaf's experience influenced Leonore being an HRH.

As for why the change now rather than leaving it to Victoria--well the children are young, they don't really know they have lost something with the HRH being stripped from them. Better now than when they are teenagers or adults.
Madeleine herself said in the Mama interview that her children had no idea about them being royal and having titles yet so I'd say the timing is perfect.
Another aspect of why this happens now could be to forestall the result of the inquiry by the Constitutional assembly regarding the Royal family - its finances and organisation that apparently is almost finished now.
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  #127  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
I hope the Court can find a prudent and more courteous way and treat them alike any children of a Swedish Greve or Friherre or otherwise titled nobleman... It It is would be strange to see a Greve Wachtmeister af Johannishus or a Friherre Silfverskiöld pass their nobility to a new male line generation but not the royal born Carl Philip.
Why should CP's children be treated any different than Madeleine's children?
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  #128  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
It was strange that the King granted Madeleine's children of title/style and dukedom in the first place and now stripping them off of the HRH style including Carl-Philip's children. I wonder what prompted him to change his mind.

I mean, he could have let this thing go and leave it to the next generation. Either way, when Victoria succeeds, both Carl-Philip and Madeleine's family will no longer be part of the Royal House.

I'm feeling more bitter about Carl-Philip's children since he is a direct male descendant.

But yes, maybe not stripping them off of HRH but reducing it to HH would be better.

Sad.
To understand that decision you need to put yourself in the mindset of CGXVI circa February 2014, when Leonore was born.
  • Estelle was the only child of her generation and there was no guarantee of siblings
  • Carl Philip and Sofia were not yet engaged and even then there was a possibility they wouldn't have kids
  • Leading to the non-zero probability that Leonore might be her generation's long-term spare. In this alternate reality (where Estelle is an only child and CP is childless) Leonore likely has modest royal duties serving a Carl Philip role and, if something happened to Estelle or she didn't have children, a potential future Queen
Obviously, this didn't turn out to be true and any role Leonore might have had got transferred to Oscar the moment he was born. For me, the question isn't why Leonore got a title, or even why Nicolas did (as he was born before CP Victoria's second pregnancy was announced and they probably wanted to be sure everything was ok with the baby before transferring the "spare" expectations from Leonore to her cousin), but why Alexander, and subsequently Gabriel and Adrienne did.

I think the issue is they set a precedent from Leonore (under completely different circumstances) and didn't want any of the grandkids to be titled differently. What would have made more sense is to take the HRH from Leonore and Nicolas in the gap between Oscar and Alexander's birth as a signifier that Oscar's birth meant his cousins weren't needed as spares, and by extension had no need for an HRH or an expectation of official duties.
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  #129  
Old 10-07-2019, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Possibly the policy was followed, not knowing there would be such fruitful marriages. Look at Luxembourg, where the eldest child of the Grand-Duke's second child still is the future heiress. Once the King applied this policy, naturally he did not want to treat his grandchildren in A- and B-category, but now we have advanced a few years, naturally the King thought it was wise to review the arrangements.
Luxembourg can be a tricky example since they also follow stricter rule and distinction. Only the children of the Hereditary Grand Duke is eligible of the HRH Prince/Princess of Luxembourg style and title. Princess Amalia is not a Princess of Luxembourg but a HRH Princess of Nassau and Bourbon-Parma.

Yeah it could be because of that. Maybe the King didn't like what happened on his generation when all of her sisters were stripped of HRH styles (exluding Princess Birgitte) and his uncles and grand-uncles too.

But this is just too much. I would understand Madeleine's children be stripped off of everything since she's not a male-line descendant and married a commoner but Carl-Philip? How?
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  #130  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:03 PM
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I guess that the stripping of titles for Leonore, Nicolas and Adrienne is now also a sign for the remaining in the US and not a moving back to Sweden.
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  #131  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by theroyalfly View Post
Luxembourg can be a tricky example since they also follow stricter rule and distinction. Only the children of the Hereditary Grand Duke is eligible of the HRH Prince/Princess of Luxembourg style and title. Princess Amalia is not a Princess of Luxembourg but a HRH Princess of Nassau and Bourbon-Parma.

Yeah it could be because of that. Maybe the King didn't like what happened on his generation when all of her sisters were stripped of HRH styles (exluding Princess Birgitte) and his uncles and grand-uncles too.

But this is just too much. I would understand Madeleine's children be stripped off of everything since she's not a male-line descendant and married a commoner but Carl-Philip? How?
The answer, besides the obvious one about the parliamentary inquiry, is probably to spare Alexander and Gabriel what has happened to Beatrice and Eugenie in the UK (and what might end up happening with Joachim's kids in Denmark).
While we know not everyone with an HRH is on the government's dime, most people don't. The York girls are stuck in a no-win scenario, where no-one is really clamoring for them as full-time royals, but when they try to live private lives they're criticized for being lazy taxpayer leeches or abusing their title for cushy jobs.

Better to remove the HRH, and by extension, the pressure, off them, while they're too young to know then have some Swedish tabloid headlines in thirty years like "Work-shy HRH Prince Alexander on 3rd holiday of the month" or "Prince Gabriel joins the board of company accused of sweat-shop labor"
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  #132  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Archduchess Zelia View Post
Why should CP's children be treated any different than Madeleine's children?
Because also in Sweden nobility is passed in the male lineage. Carl Philip is the unbroken legal male agnate in the procreation, directly from the first Bernadotte King. Note that, as such, he was entitled to the wealth of the Galliera Foundation (artworks, jewels, capital) but that he and his father agreed in changing the statutes so that no longer he, the future most senior legal male agnate of the House of Bernadotte, but the bearer of the crown would be the beneficient. That was a very kind and generous geste of the Prince, speaking volumes for his loyalty and devotion to his sister and the Royal House. But still he is, from father to son, from Bernadotte to Bernadotte, the new generation, when we apply the historic standard followed by any Swedish noble titled family
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  #133  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:18 PM
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While we know not everyone with an HRH is on the government's dime, most people don't. The York girls are stuck in a no-win scenario, where no-one is really clamoring for them as full-time royals, but when they try to live private lives they're criticized for being lazy taxpayer leeches or abusing their title for cushy jobs.

Better to remove the HRH, and by extension, the pressure, off them, while they're too young to know then have some Swedish tabloid headlines in thirty years like "Work-shy HRH Prince Alexander on 3rd holiday of the month" or "Prince Gabriel, joins the board of company accused of sweat-shop labor"
Thank you for calming me up. I was really bitter about Carl-Philip's children.

I understand the pressure that comes with the HRH style.

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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Because also in Sweden nobility is passed in the male lineage. Carl Philip is the unbroken legal male agnate in the procreation, directly from the first Bernadotte King. Note that, as such, he was entitled to the wealth of the Galliera Foundation (artworks, jewels, capital) but that he and his father agreed in changing the statutes so that no longer he, the future most senior legal male agnate of the House of Bernadotte, but the bearer of the crown would be the beneficient. That was a very kind and generous geste of the Prince, speaking volumes for his loyalty and devotion to his sister and the Royal House. But still he is, from father to son, from Bernadotte to Bernadotte, the new generation, when we apply the historic standard followed by any Swedish noble titled family
This makes me sadder. Carl-Philip deserves better.
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  #134  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:39 PM
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But the core ideal of Sweden today is equality between the sexes. Any differential treatment between CP and Madeleine’s children would, ultimately, not play out well in the press or with the people. I was surprised when Madeleine’s children received titles, because in Norway, the king’s oldest grandchild - despite being in line to the throne - carries her father’s last name. But I was informed when Leonore was born that it would be seen as odd to differentiate Madeleine’s children from the potential offspring of Carl Philip.

And it well might be that the Swedish nobility may follow suit, in the long run.
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  #135  
Old 10-07-2019, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Because also in Sweden nobility is passed in the male lineage. Carl Philip is the unbroken legal male agnate in the procreation, directly from the first Bernadotte King. Note that, as such, he was entitled to the wealth of the Galliera Foundation (artworks, jewels, capital) but that he and his father agreed in changing the statutes so that no longer he, the future most senior legal male agnate of the House of Bernadotte, but the bearer of the crown would be the beneficient. That was a very kind and generous geste of the Prince, speaking volumes for his loyalty and devotion to his sister and the Royal House. But still he is, from father to son, from Bernadotte to Bernadotte, the new generation, when we apply the historic standard followed by any Swedish noble titled family
Sweden relinquished agnatic primogeniture in 1980. So CP's "unbroken male lineage" doesn't really hold any kind of official value anymore and as such, giving him preferential treatment over his sister on the basis of his sex would seem absolutely absurd. Especially in a forward-thinking country like Sweden. As CP isn't a part of the Swedish nobility, whether or not nobility is passed in the male lineage is completely irrelevant. It's nothing new that Swedish royal dukedoms are life dukedoms.

"Kind and generous" of him With that logic, I guess it was also very kind and generous of the King's four sisters to accept that they were deemed unusable because of their gender without making any fuss about it.

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This makes me sadder. Carl-Philip deserves better.
Do you also feel sad about all the firstborn women who were denied their birthright on the basis of their sex?
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  #136  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:00 PM
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Hi all. Like everyone else, i am trying to digest all of this today. Madeline and Carl Philip seem pleased to have their children not be involved in public duties. That affords them the freedom to do and be whatever they want. I guess if the King was going to do it, it would be best to do it now while they are young. They really won't know the difference. And it won't affect Carl Philip, Sofia or Madeline and their work/charities. As always, they will mainly work at the discretion of the King.

I do have one question about Carl Philip's side of the family. What happens to Prince Alexander's claim to Stenhammer? As he does get to keep his duke title, will he still have the option as the Duke of Sodermanland to live in the castle or the property there? I guess it would then revert to the main line when he dies? How does that work exactly or maybe we are in uncharted waters here.
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  #137  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:04 PM
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I find it strange that the king decided at the time of births that the children of Madeleine and Carl Philip are part of The Royal House and now in October 2019 they are no longer suddenly included. At least the children are young enough not to know the difference. Its been clear that Victoria and her children have been in the foreground anyway, whereas her younger siblings and their children in backround.

I hope Leonore, Nicolas, Alexander, Gabriel and Adrienne can now be free to choose their own path and career.

I just hope that next announcement won't say that Carl Philip, Sofia and Madeleine are no longer expected to perform duties because four working royals are enough. That would be a shame and reason to unfollow the Swedis royal family.

Lovely responses from Madeleine and Carl Philip. Very dignified. Wishing them all the best.
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  #138  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:05 PM
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What I really do not understand is this harping on MALE descendants, especially not when it comes to Sweden and the swedisch way of life (in regard of what I had learned about equality).
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  #139  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Because also in Sweden nobility is passed in the male lineage. Carl Philip is the unbroken legal male agnate in the procreation, directly from the first Bernadotte King. Note that, as such, he was entitled to the wealth of the Galliera Foundation (artworks, jewels, capital) but that he and his father agreed in changing the statutes so that no longer he, the future most senior legal male agnate of the House of Bernadotte, but the bearer of the crown would be the beneficient. That was a very kind and generous geste of the Prince, speaking volumes for his loyalty and devotion to his sister and the Royal House. But still he is, from father to son, from Bernadotte to Bernadotte, the new generation, when we apply the historic standard followed by any Swedish noble titled family
It would have been more strange to have the wealth leave the monarchy and go to a younger sibling where it would move further and further away from the King/Queen.
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  #140  
Old 10-07-2019, 02:32 PM
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Are precipitants of The Royal Order of the Seraphim entitled to be addressed as His/Her Excellency?
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