The Royal Forums Coat of Arms


Join The Royal Forums Today
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
  #301  
Old 12-27-2020, 01:48 PM
Courtier
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: London, United Kingdom
Posts: 918
Interesting, thank you.

I wonder if they will fudge it again (in the way Madeleine's children are not being raised in Sweden but are still in the line of succession) and say that the King is going to grant courtesy royal orders and COA to royal *family* members who are in the line of succession and not just Royal House?

Would there be much outcry over a baby getting the same treatment as his/her older brothers? Probably not.

Being born an HRH and then having it taken away once you have all the other perks seems more dishonest than just giving them the COA and Orders anyway. If he does indeed intend to give them those things.

The other thing to do would be to take away the COA and orders from the other five children but I don't see that happening.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #302  
Old 01-08-2021, 01:04 PM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,085
The existing system of ducal titles was created in 1772. Henceforth, the only circumstance under which there would have been a surviving heir after the death of a duke, if the ducal title had been hereditary, was in 1947 when the father of the future King Carl XVI Gustaf died. His title Duke of Västerbotten apparently became extinct instead of passing to Carl Gustaf.

Every other time a ducal title was created, the duke either became King (before 1973, the ducal title merged with the crown and was free to be regranted if the prince became King), lost his ducal title for an unequal marriage, had no sons (daughters did not hold ducal titles before 1980), or had had their only son excluded from holding royal titles for an unequal marriage.

Given that only once did it matter whether a ducal title was inheritable, when and why was it agreed on that ducal titles are not inheritable?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
There is one exception to this trend: Sweden. The flood of princes and princesses (all dukes and duchesses as well).
Sweden was by no means an exception. Grandchildren or nieces/nephews of the Danish, Belgian, British, Luxembourgian, and Liechtenstein sovereigns are princes and princesses. The practices of monarchies in the Middle East and elsewhere are more generous yet.

Counting the child expected to be born in spring, King Carl XVI Gustaf has the same number of prince and princess grandchildren as Queen Margrethe II of Denmark and Prince Hans-Adam II of Liechtenstein, and fewer prince or princess grandchildren than King Albert II of Belgium or the late Grand Duke Jean of Luxembourg.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Regarding the Madeleine issue (although we are going hugely off-topic - and her situation is quite different in that she is the monarch's daughter not grandson); in my perception the main inconsistency is not in keeping her title -she was born a royal highness and currently they don't strip people of titles for not marrying 'equals', so no reason for her to give up her title- but in accepting titles for her children while their father refused a title. So, this is a 'Nordic' example where they give out more titles than previously instead of less or asking/suggesting/forcing to renounce.
It is actually an example of giving out fewer titles than previously, as it was the first time a spouse of a dynast who kept their place in the line of succession and remained a member of the Royal House was allowed to refuse a title.


Replied to succession related posts in the succession thread.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #303  
Old 01-08-2021, 03:19 PM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 3,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The existing system of ducal titles was created in 1772. Henceforth, the only circumstance under which there would have been a surviving heir after the death of a duke, if the ducal title had been hereditary, was in 1947 when the father of the future King Carl XVI Gustaf died. His title Duke of Västerbotten apparently became extinct instead of passing to Carl Gustaf.

Every other time a ducal title was created, the duke either became King (before 1973, the ducal title merged with the crown and was free to be regranted if the prince became King), lost his ducal title for an unequal marriage, had no sons (daughters did not hold ducal titles before 1980), or had had their only son excluded from holding royal titles for an unequal marriage.

Given that only once did it matter whether a ducal title was inheritable, when and why was it agreed on that ducal titles are not inheritable?
[...]
The Order of succession of 1590 retracted the authorisation from the Order of succession of 1544 that allowed princes to receive inheritable duchies. This most likely because the 50 years between the two different Oos had seen Sweden almost break apart because of infighting between the sons and grandsons of Gustav I of whom many had received semi-independent duchies. Henceforth the realm was never to risk becoming divided again. §34 of the Instrument of government of 1772 accordingly mentioned that the royal princes could receive the traditional titles connected to duchies and principalities but without any jurisdiction over them.
Reply With Quote
  #304  
Old 01-09-2021, 11:20 AM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Hong Kong, Hong Kong
Posts: 58
Since 1772, the "inheritance" of dukedoms (which actually aren't inherited because they either went extinct or merged with the crown, and were created again) are as follows:

=Södermanland=
1772: Carl XIII, brother of Gustav III
1810: Oscar I, son of then Crown Prince Carl Johan.
1852: Carl Oscar (grandson)
1884: Wilhelm (father's brother's grandson)
2016: Alexander (brother's grandson's grandson)

1810 and 1852 are the only two times the reigning monarch granted his dukedom to princes, who were both the heir apparent to the heir apparent to the throne upon the creation of the dukedom.

=Östergötland=
1772: Fredrik Adolf, brother of Gustav III
1829: Oscar II, grandson of Carl XIV Johan
1911: Carl (grandson)
2012: Estelle (father's brother's grandson's granddaughter's daughter)

Sophia of Nassau (1836-1913), the widow of Oscar II, was alive when Carl was granted the dukedom of Östergötland in 1911.
Estelle was granted the dukedom of Östergötland in 2012 when Carl's last spouse Kristine Rivelsrud (1932-2014) was alive, but the dukedom of Östergötland was officially revoked in 1937 when Carl married Elsa von Rosen.

=Småland=
1782: Carl Gustaf, son of Gustav III
1909: Lennart, grandson of Gustaf V

=Värmland=
1798: Carl Adolf, son of Carl XIII
1858: Gustaf V, grandson of Oscar I
1979: Carl Philip (grandson's grandson)

=Skåne=
1826: Carl XV, grandson of Carl XIV Johan
1882: Gustaf VI Adolf (brother's grandson)
2016: Oscar (grandson's grandson)

=Uppland=
1827: Gustaf, grandson of Carl XIV Johan
1907: Sigvard (brother's grandson's son)

=Dalarna=
1831: August, grandson of Carl XIV Johan
1916: Carl Johan (brother's grandson's son)
2017: Gabriel (brother's grandson's son)

=Gotland=
1859: Oscar, nephew of Carl XV
2014: Leonore (brother's grandson's granddaughter's daughter)

=Västergötland=
1861: Carl, nephew of Carl XV
1980: Victoria (brother's grandson's granddaughter)
__________________
~ Mikael ᛗᛁᚲᚨᛖᛚ ~
Reply With Quote
  #305  
Old 01-09-2021, 11:28 AM
Stefan's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Esslingen, Germany
Posts: 5,093
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0325.Mikael.0929 View Post
Since 1772, the "inheritance" of dukedoms (which actually aren't inherited because they either went extinct or merged with the crown, and were created again) are as follows:

=Södermanland=
1772: Carl XIII, brother of Gustav III
1799: Oscar I, son of then Crown Prince Carl Johan.
1852: Carl Oscar (grandson)
1884: Wilhelm (father's brother's grandson)
2016: Alexander (brother's grandson's grandson)

But the future Oscar I. got the Dukedom surely not in 1799 as then he was plain Mr. Oscar Bernadotte and nobody would have gussed at that time that he once would become King of Sweden.
__________________
Stefan



Reply With Quote
  #306  
Old 01-09-2021, 12:28 PM
An Ard Ri's Avatar
Super Moderator
Royal Blogger
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: An Iarmhí, Ireland
Posts: 28,927
He wasn't styled Crown Prince, Duke of Södermanland until at least 1818?
Reply With Quote
  #307  
Old 01-09-2021, 08:44 PM
Gentry
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Hong Kong, Hong Kong
Posts: 58
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
But the future Oscar I. got the Dukedom surely not in 1799 as then he was plain Mr. Oscar Bernadotte and nobody would have gussed at that time that he once would become King of Sweden.
Quote:
Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
He wasn't styled Crown Prince, Duke of Södermanland until at least 1818?
Sorry, it was a typo. Changed to 1810.
He became Prince of Sweden and Duke of Södermanland in 1810 when he was 11, then Crown Prince in 1818 when Carl XIV Johan ascends.
__________________
~ Mikael ᛗᛁᚲᚨᛖᛚ ~
Reply With Quote
  #308  
Old 01-13-2021, 06:41 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
The Order of succession of 1590 retracted the authorisation from the Order of succession of 1544 that allowed princes to receive inheritable duchies. This most likely because the 50 years between the two different Oos had seen Sweden almost break apart because of infighting between the sons and grandsons of Gustav I of whom many had received semi-independent duchies. Henceforth the realm was never to risk becoming divided again. §34 of the Instrument of government of 1772 accordingly mentioned that the royal princes could receive the traditional titles connected to duchies and principalities but without any jurisdiction over them.
Thank you very much for the informative answer.

Where can I read the old Orders of Succession and Instruments of Government, or are they found only in Swedish books?

I am still puzzled as to when and why the decision that ducal titles would be non-inheritable was formed. If the introduction of ducal titles in 1772 was intended to connect to the historical tradition of semi-independent duchies ruled by the king's sons, and the historical semi-independent duchies had been inheritable, shouldn't the ducal titles have been inheritable as well?
Reply With Quote
  #309  
Old 01-13-2021, 07:14 AM
JR76's Avatar
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Malmö, Sweden
Posts: 3,229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I am still puzzled as to when and why the decision that ducal titles would be non-inheritable was formed. If the introduction of ducal titles in 1772 was intended to connect to the historical tradition of semi-independent duchies ruled by the king's sons, and the historical semi-independent duchies had been inheritable, shouldn't the ducal titles have been inheritable as well?
The one thing we do know for sure is that, to my knowledge, no Swedish duchy and the titles connected to it has ever been inherited. Not even in the Middle ages. It's hard to tell why since none of the Vasa dukes ever had the option to pass their duchies on to their sons because of them either seizing the throne, inheriting the throne or not having any legitimate offspring. I'm just speculating here but I do interpret the ban on inheritable duchies as including the titles connected to them. Again it's hard to tell since there weren't any dukedoms, titular or "political", after 1622. I don't know if that was a conscious decision or a consequence of the fact that no prince, other than future kings, lived beyond the age of 2 between the death of Prince Karl Filip in 1622 and the birth of the brothers of Gustav III in 1748 and 1750.
Reply With Quote
  #310  
Old 01-13-2021, 07:27 AM
Heir Apparent
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: St Thomas, U.S. Minor Outlying Islands
Posts: 3,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
The one thing we do know for sure is that, to my knowledge, no Swedish duchy and the titles connected to it has ever been inherited. Not even in the Middle ages. It's hard to tell why since none of the Vasa dukes ever had the option to pass their duchies on to their sons because of them either seizing the throne, inheriting the throne or not having any legitimate offspring. I'm just speculating here but I do interpret the ban on inheritable duchies as including the titles connected to them. Again it's hard to tell since there weren't any dukedoms, titular or "political", after 1622. I don't know if that was a conscious decision or a consequence of the fact that no prince, other than future kings, lived beyond the age of 2 between the death of Prince Karl Filip in 1622 and the birth of the brothers of Gustav III in 1748 and 1750.
Are you saying that the ban applied exclusively to inheritable duchies (and possibly inheritable ducal titles), leaving the possibility of non-inheritable duchies/titles? I would like to know the precise phrasing of the law.

Regarding the system of ducal titles introduced in 1772, my question was what produced the decision that Prince Carl Gustaf would not inherit the ducal title of his father in 1947, seeing that no other titular duke had the option to pass on their ducal title due to not leaving any royal sons.
__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Questions about British Styles and Titles summrbrew2 British Royals 5467 01-13-2021 09:53 PM
Non-British Styles and Titles Lord Sosnowitz Royal Ceremony and Protocol 787 09-23-2020 04:21 AM
Diana's Styles and Titles florawindsor Diana, Princess of Wales (1961-1997) 894 11-27-2019 12:04 AM
Questions about Names, Styles and Titles Warren Royal Families of France 23 12-17-2018 06:26 PM




Popular Tags
#royalrelatives #royalgenes abu dhabi american history anastasia 2020 armstrong-jones baby names british royal family buckingham palace canada carolin cht coronavirus cpr duchess of sussex duke of cambridge duke of sussex earl of snowdon elizabeth ii emperor family tree general news thread george vi gradenigo haakon vii hereditary grand duchess stéphanie hereditary grand duke guillaume history hochberg hypothetical monarchs interesting introduction jewellery jewelry jumma kids movie list of rulers maxima mountbatten names nepal nepalese royal family pless prince harry princess alexia (2005 -) princess chulabhorn princess dita princess elizabeth princess eugenie princess laurentien princess of orange queen louise queen maud resusci anne royal balls royal events royal family royal jewels royal spouse royalty royalty of taiwan royal wedding russian court dress settings spain stuart thailand thai royal family videos von hofmannsthal wedding gown


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:55 AM.

Social Knowledge Networks

eXTReMe Tracker
Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2021
Jelsoft Enterprises
×