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  #281  
Old 09-01-2020, 10:21 AM
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I must confess that I'm a bit confused by this discussion.
Why would anyone get a noble title from Luxemburg just because they are descendants from CGXVI? Sweden doesn't have any peers, we're all commoners, even the King in fact. So the idea is absolutely ludicrous and would very much laughed at by the Swedes.



And for the discussion about the duchies; One province isn't better than another. The title means absolutely nothing to the person holding it, it's just a nice way of drawing attention to the province. I'll have to hope for Victoria to create a duchy for my province, Bohuslän, next.


And I also don't understand the indignation about Alexander getting Södermanland and Oscar Skåne. Please remember that this isn't done to please the prince/sses but to please the provinces.
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  #282  
Old 09-01-2020, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpot View Post
I must confess that I'm a bit confused by this discussion.
Why would anyone get a noble title from Luxemburg just because they are descendants from CGXVI? Sweden doesn't have any peers, we're all commoners, even the King in fact. So the idea is absolutely ludicrous and would very much laughed at by the Swedes.
The idea is discussed from time to time because it was implemented for every former Prince of the Royal House of Bernadotte in the past. Each received a hereditary noble title from either Luxembourg or Belgium to be used by their legitimate descendants in male line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpot View Post
And for the discussion about the duchies; One province isn't better than another. The title means absolutely nothing to the person holding it, it's just a nice way of drawing attention to the province. I'll have to hope for Victoria to create a duchy for my province, Bohuslän, next.

And I also don't understand the indignation about Alexander getting Södermanland and Oscar Skåne. Please remember that this isn't done to please the prince/sses but to please the provinces.
Your opinion that no duchy is better than another is an entirely valid one, and indeed I hope that opinion is held by most people in Sweden. However, as Somebody explained (I've quoted the post again below), there are a number of reasons why Södermanland is sometimes treated as the most distinguished duchy:

It was among the very first regions in Sweden to be reigned over by a duke.
It has been linked to a higher number of future kings than the other duchies.
It is the only ducal title which currently has a palace (or any other wealth) attached to it.

In the eyes of the King, the history of the dukedom is apparently of some importance because, as Somebody pointed out, the children of Princess Madeleine have consistently received dukedoms with less distinguished royal histories compared to their cousins.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
It's also clear that the king treated his son's children differently in terms of dukedoms than his younger daughter's children. While especially Carl Philip's eldest child (the rightful heir in CG's eyes?!) got ducal titles with a lot of history (and a palace attached to it). Madeleine's childeren (just like their mother) mostly got 'new' ducal titles or with a more limited royal history (probably taking into account that Leonore was the spare at that point).

And while Estelle did get a ducal title with a lot of history; her younger brother's title has only been awarded to future kings.

Estelle: Östergötland
Sune Sik, Duke of Östergötland 12th century (according to 18th-century Swedish historian Magnus Boræn)
Prince Magnus, Duke of Östergötland 1560–1595
Prince John, Duke of Östergötland 1606–1618
Princess Maria Elizabeth, Duchess of Östergötland 1612–1618 as consort and widow of Prince John
Prince Fredrik Adolph, Duke of Östergötland 1772–1803
Prince Oscar, Duke of Östergötland 1829–1872, then King Oscar II of Sweden and Norway
Princess Sophia, Duchess of Östergötland 1857–1872 as consort of Prince Oscar, then Queen of Sweden and Norway
Prince Carl, Duke of Östergötland 1911–1937, Queen Astrid of Belgium's brother, later Prince Bernadotte
Princess Estelle, Duchess of Östergötland 2012–

Oscar: Skane
Prince Carl, Duke of Scania (1826-1859), later King Carl XV of Sweden and Norway
Prince Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Scania (1882-1950), later King Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden
Prince Oscar, Duke of Skåne (2016–present)

Alexander: Söndermanland
Erik Magnusson, son of King Magnus III, from 1302 until his death in 1318
Prince Karl, son of King Gustav I, from 1560 until he became King in 1604
Prince Karl Filip, son of King Karl IX, from 1609 until his death in 1622
Prince Karl, son of King Adolf Fredrik, from 1772 until he became King in 1809
Prince Oscar, son of King Karl XIV Johan, from before 1818 until he became King in 1844
Prince Carl Oscar, son of Crown Prince (later King) Karl (XV), from his birth in 1852 until his death in 1854
Prince Wilhelm, son of King Gustaf V, from his birth in 1884 until his death in 1965
Prince Alexander, grandson of King Carl XVI Gustaf, from 2016

Gabriel: Dalarna
Prince August, Duke of Dalarna 1831–1873
Prince Carl Johan, Duke of Dalarna 1916–1946
Prince Gabriel, Duke of Dalarna 2017–present

Leonore: Gotland
Duke Eric, Lord of Gotland (1397)
Ex-King Eric, Lord of Gotland (1439–1449)

Prince Oscar, Duke of Gotland (1859–1888)
Princess Leonore, Duchess of Gotland (2014–present)

Nicolas: Angermanland
Prince Nicolas, Duke of Ångermanland (2015 - present)

Adrienne: Blekinge
Princess Adrienne, Duchess of Blekinge (2018 - present)
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  #283  
Old 09-01-2020, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpot View Post
I must confess that I'm a bit confused by this discussion.
Why would anyone get a noble title from Luxemburg just because they are descendants from CGXVI? Sweden doesn't have any peers, we're all commoners, even the King in fact. So the idea is absolutely ludicrous and would very much laughed at by the Swedes.
History

Quote:
And for the discussion about the duchies; One province isn't better than another. The title means absolutely nothing to the person holding it, it's just a nice way of drawing attention to the province. I'll have to hope for Victoria to create a duchy for my province, Bohuslän, next.

And I also don't understand the indignation about Alexander getting Södermanland and Oscar Skåne. Please remember that this isn't done to please the prince/sses but to please the provinces.
If that is the case, why would they keep pleasing the same provinces over and over again and not pleasing other provinces at all?

The only province that was specifically chosen because of the province itself was Dalarna - because of Sofia's connection to it (as she emphasized at the christening) - although also in that case it had royal history, so must have been considered appropriate by the king for a son of his son (so, male-line).
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  #284  
Old 09-01-2020, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpot View Post
I must confess that I'm a bit confused by this discussion.
Why would anyone get a noble title from Luxemburg just because they are descendants from CGXVI? Sweden doesn't have any peers, we're all commoners, even the King in fact. So the idea is absolutely ludicrous and would very much laughed at by the Swedes.

While Sweden doesn't have any peers (that is correct), Sweden does have a nobility. The nobility has been removed fron the sphere of public law (i.e. it is no longer regulated by the State), but it has not been abolished in Sweden. Instead, the nobility still exists as a private corporation which collectively owns certain assets (including the palace of the House of Nobility) and is funded by a head tax that is imposed on all legally recognized adult members of the noble estate.

The Swedish Royal Court in particular certainly still recognizes nobility and treats noblemen differently from "commoners' considering that titles like Baron or Count, when applicable, are prefixed to given names and surnames in all guest lists for royal events like weddings and christenings.
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  #285  
Old 09-02-2020, 12:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
While Sweden doesn't have any peers (that is correct), Sweden does have a nobility. The nobility has been removed fron the sphere of public law (i.e. it is no longer regulated by the State), but it has not been abolished in Sweden. Instead, the nobility still exists as a private corporation which collectively owns certain assets (including the palace of the House of Nobility) and is funded by a head tax that is imposed on all legally recognized adult members of the noble estate.

The Swedish Royal Court in particular certainly still recognizes nobility and treats noblemen differently from "commoners' considering that titles like Baron or Count, when applicable, are prefixed to given names and surnames in all guest lists for royal events like weddings and christenings.

True, but even though the existing nobility isn't abolished, it's not possible to introduce a new noble house. Thus a titel from Luxembourg will not be considered noble and will not be a part of the that private corporation.

So, what's the point? It will only look ridiculous.
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  #286  
Old 09-02-2020, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
History


If that is the case, why would they keep pleasing the same provinces over and over again and not pleasing other provinces at all?

The only province that was specifically chosen because of the province itself was Dalarna - because of Sofia's connection to it (as she emphasized at the christening) - although also in that case it had royal history, so must have been considered appropriate by the king for a son of his son (so, male-line).

What I'm trying to convey is a Swedish view on this duchy thing and I'm just saying that you make too much of it. It has no significance to the citizens of the Kingdom of Sweden, it's just a nice tradition without any value.

Even if it did have any importance; why would be such a terrible thing to give Södermanland to Alexander? This is what puzzles me most wit this discussion.
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  #287  
Old 09-02-2020, 12:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpot View Post
True, but even though the existing nobility isn't abolished, it's not possible to introduce a new noble house. Thus a titel from Luxembourg will not be considered noble and will not be a part of the that private corporation.

So, what's the point? It will only look ridiculous.
Just because a noble family isn't introduced on Riddarhuset doesn't mean that they aren't noble. Foreign noble titles are carried and used by many Swedes of whom many, including the Counts of Wisborg, Prince Cantacuzene, Duke D'Otrante, Marquess Lagergren to name a few, are members of the Unintroduced Nobility Association that represent 115 families.
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  #288  
Old 09-02-2020, 12:40 PM
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@Tatiana Maria


"
"It is the only ducal title which currently has a palace (or any other wealth) attached to it."


I guess you're thinking about Stenhammar but it doesn't have much wealth attached to it other than to it's owner, which is the Swedish State. It's only a lease hold and as such it's not inheritable (is that a correct word?).


After the current lease holder dies the State will appoint a new one and since Carl Philip has a degree in agriculture and has an all around interest in farming and forrestry, I suppose he will get the job. But after him? Who knows, it can be any of the other boys. The owner will naturally appoint the one best suited for the task. They want their property to be handled by someone who knows their stuff, I imagine.
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  #289  
Old 09-02-2020, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpot View Post
After the current lease holder dies the State will appoint a new one and since Carl Philip has a degree in agriculture and has an all around interest in farming and forrestry, I suppose he will get the job. But after him? Who knows, it can be any of the other boys. The owner will naturally appoint the one best suited for the task. They want their property to be handled by someone who knows their stuff, I imagine.
There is an exception: If the Duke of Södermanland had continued to be a prince of the royal house, his right to hold the lease to Stenhammar would have been given priority over the other princes under the terms of the testament (see the text here). After the reorganization last year, it is unclear how the testament will be interpreted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpot View Post
What I'm trying to convey is a Swedish view on this duchy thing and I'm just saying that you make too much of it. It has no significance to the citizens of the Kingdom of Sweden, it's just a nice tradition without any value.
If I understood correctly, in post #281 you requested clarification of the discussion about the duchies, and Somebody was responding to your question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverpot View Post
Even if it did have any importance; why would be such a terrible thing to give Södermanland to Alexander? This is what puzzles me most wit this discussion.
I didn't find a reference to "a terrible thing" in this discussion, but I imagine it is discussed because it appears significant, especially when viewed in the light of similar decisions of the King, such as that mentioned in post #280.
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  #290  
Old 09-02-2020, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
There is an exception: If the Duke of Södermanland had continued to be a prince of the royal house, his right to hold the lease to Stenhammar would have been given priority over the other princes under the terms of the testament (see the text here).
There's an important if there - "if he or his guardian so wishes"
There's one thing about the term "konungahuset" that bugs me and that I guess you'd have to look in old State Calendars to find out - was there a differentiation of the Royal House and the Royal family at the time of the von Kraemer will or is that a more recent invention. If there were not that distinction at the time could it be argued that any prince and Duke of Södermanland is eligible even if not a member of the Royal House as we define it today?
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  #291  
Old 09-05-2020, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
In the eyes of the King, the history of the dukedom is apparently of some importance because, as Somebody pointed out, the children of Princess Madeleine have consistently received dukedoms with less distinguished royal histories compared to their cousins.
That is true, considering that Madeleine herself and her latter two children were granted completely unused duchies, which would otherwise not be a common practice for those higher in line (except a new duchy in Norrland is created every time the heir apparent to the heir apparent to the heir apparent is born, see Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Västerbotten and Carl XVI Gustaf, born Duke of Jämtland)
-
When Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Västerbotten is born,
his father Gustaf VI Adolf was Duke of Skåne,
his uncles Wilhelm and Erik were Dukes of Södermanland and Västmanland respectively,
his grandfather Gustaf V was Duke of Värmland,
his great-uncles Carl and Eugen were Dukes of Västergötland and Närke.
Gustaf Adolf could have been granted the dukedom of Uppland which has been used in the 14th century. Instead, a whole new duchy in Norrland was what he got. Prior to him, no duchy in Norrland has been granted officially. And the one who gets the dukedom of Uppland was his younger brother Sigvard who lost the dukedom eventually.
-
When Carl XVI Gustaf was born,
his father Gustaf Adolf was Duke of Västerbotten,
his uncle Bertil was Duke of Halland,
his grandfather Gustaf VI Adolf was Duke of Skåne,
his great-uncle Wilhelm was Duke of Södermanland,
his great-grandfather Gustaf V was born the Duke of Värmland,
his great-great-uncles Carl and Eugen were Dukes of Västergötland and Närke respectively.
The Dukes of Uppland, Dalarna, Småland, Östergötland and Gotland lost their titles due to unapproved marriage.
Again, Carl XVI Gustaf could have picked up any of those titles or be the Duke of Västmanland or Öland, all of those having long histories of their own. Öland was used by his namesake Carolus Gustavus, but never used again since then.
Instead, another grand new duchy in Norrland was granted - Jämtland.
The next time a grand new duchy in Norrland was granted was to Carl XVI Gustaf's third child, Madeleine (Hälsingland and Gästrikland) and then to her second child, Nicolas (Ångermanland).
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Your opinion that no duchy is better than another is an entirely valid one, and indeed I hope that opinion is held by most people in Sweden. However, as Somebody explained (I've quoted the post again below), there are a number of reasons why Södermanland is sometimes treated as the most distinguished duchy:

It was among the very first regions in Sweden to be reigned over by a duke.
It has been linked to a higher number of future kings than the other duchies.
It is the only ducal title which currently has a palace (or any other wealth) attached to it.
-
I think that in the recent years of Bernadotte Sweden, the dukedom of Södermanland, though having several more centuries of history (Carolus IX, Gustavus Adolphus and Carl XIII held the title) than the dukedom of Skåne, are more oftenly granted to those who play second fiddle to the Duke of Skåne in the recent 200 years. The dukedom of Skåne is granted always to the first grandson in line to the throne by the monarch.
-
1811-1859: Oscar I (Södermanland, born 1799, enthroned 1844)
1826-1872: Carl XV (Skåne, enthroned 1859)
1852-1854: Carl Oscar (Södermanland)
1882-1973: Gustaf VI Adolf (Skåne)
1884-1965: Wilhelm (Södermanland)
2016-: Oscar (Skåne)
2016-: Alexander (Södermanland)
-
A possible reason why Carl XV was not granted the dukedom of Södermanland was because Oscar was still the Duke of Södermanland at that time, and since the dukedom of Skåne could not be used for Carl Oscar when he was born, the dukedom of Södermanland was conferred to him.
But as we can see, both Oscar II and Carl XVI Gustaf favored Skåne over Södermanland for a grandson higher in line even when both duchies were vacant at the same time.
Perhaps Stenhammar was never meant for those who will be future monarchs?
-
And to be honest, I found out that ducal titles for the children and grandchildren of Carl XVI Gustaf are mostly given on a land-basis from south to north.
Västergötland, Östergötland and Skåne are in Götaland and are used by the Crown Princess Family;
Värmland, Södermanland and Dalarna are in Svealand and are used by the Prince Family;
The only exception is two of Madeleine's daughters which were given dukedoms in New Götaland (Gotland and Blekinge). Madeleine and her son have dukedoms from Norrland (Hälsingland, Gästrikland, Ångermanland)
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