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  #241  
Old 02-06-2020, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
Svensk Damtidning's Helena Wiklund interviewed Victoria in Iceland about the change in the Royal House.

What does the Crown Princess think about the great change in the royal house? Does the Crown Princess feel at ease for the future?
– Yes, I do. But I think we should find another opportunity to talk about this. Take another grasp of it simply.
Meanwhile, many people wonder how the Crown Princess thinks about this.
- Yes it is so.
And several who feel that the press and responsibility that has been put on the Crown princess is getting very large?
Victoria ponders a few seconds before she responds.
- But it belongs well to the whole. It is not so strange really.
So the Crown Princess feels confident for the future?
- Well, I do. And I am confident also with what I have around me.
Exklusivt! Victorias första ord – svarar efter kungens beslut _ Svensk Dam

The King has now highlighted that Crown Princess Victoria and her children have a special position.
Madeleine welcomes the decision - outwards.
But previously, she has wanted her children to belong to the royal house as well, says Expressen.
The king is the one who has taken the initiative in this matter, but all three children have been keen to express their views. The court admits that it is a process that has taken a long time.
- This is a discussion that has been around for a long time in the family, and the whole royal family has been involved. Everyone is involved, says Margareta Thorgren.
When asked about how close the family members have been, Margareta Thorgren replies that it is a dialogue that has been held within the family.
- It is a process that has been going on for a long time and where everyone in the family agrees.
But earlier, when Princess Madeleine's daughter Leonore was born in 2014, Madeleine expressed a desire for her children to belong to the royal house. According to information to Expressen, the king agreed with his daughter, despite the fact that there were divided sentences in the matter within the court.
However, Karin Lennmor, royal expert and chronicler at Expressen, does not perceive Madeleine's wish at that time that she wanted at all costs for her daughter to become part of the royal house.
- Madeleine really wanted her firstborn daughter to get a princess title, and with that she got it she became part of the royal house. When Madeleine and Chris O'Neill got married, Chris did not want to receive the prince's title. He wanted to be able to work as usual. That's why I think Madeleine was worried when Leonore was born. She didn't really know what her baby would be like. Then she pressed her parents and said: I want my daughter to become a princess, Karin Lennmor says.
The King's decision on Monday could also have financial consequences for his younger children. The focus on Victoria is expected to mean that Princess Madeleine and Prince couple Carl Philip and Sofia will receive fewer official assignments in the future.
Prinsessan Madeleine om relationen till Victoria

The game behind the king's decision on the grandchildren
Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip's children will no longer belong to the royal house.
King Carl Gustaf's decision came as a surprise, but the signals that a change was underway have been around for a long time.
The decision will also affect Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip. As they receive fewer official assignments, their apanage will also decrease.
- When the royal children were born, the royal family was not so big. Now we have a situation with ten people in the line to throne, when the king has reached this great restriction, The Marshal of the Realm Fredrik Wersäll previously told Expressen.
According to him, this is a decision that has been discussed within the royal family for several years.
- The decision by the king explicitly states that this means greater freedom for the children to shape their own future. They will continue to be part of the succession. There is also an obligation to work to maintain the trust of the monarchy.
Both Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia have commented that they are positive about the change.
"Chris and I think it is good that our children now have a greater opportunity to shape their own lives as individuals in the future", Madeleine writes on Instagram.
- I absolutely think she welcomes this decision. After all, she has talked about it and it has also become clear that she has been bothered by all the attention and demands that she should return to Sweden and represent in different contexts. Although she will still be a royal highness and princess, both she and Carl Philip will be much calmer now, says chronicler Karin Lennmor.
Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia also commented on the decision on their joint Instagram account:
“We see this as a positive as Alexander and Gabriel will have freer choices in life. They will retain their prince titles and their duchies, Södermanland and Dalarna, which we value and are proud of. Our family has strong connections to both landscapes and we maintain our commitment there ”.
- I think Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine are happy about this decision, not have to be so careful and to have this press on them anymore, says Lennmor.
The clues have been there for a long time
Although the king's decision came as a surprise to many, there have been signals that a change has been going on for a long time.
- There are two very clear signs, says Karin Lennmor.
In September, Princess Madeleine, who is up to date with her children's book debut "Stella and the secret", was present at the Book Fair in Gothenburg and then bypassed the question of where the children would go to school.
- It was always an indication that something was going on. This with school, I think is something that worried Madeleine. The old rule has been that when you belong to the royal house, the children should have a Swedish schooling with Swedish as their mother tongue and it is not possible to arrange in Florida what I know. Now it will be completely different. She is completely free to choose where she wants to put her children in school. This message, I think, meant that a large stone fell from her shoulders, Karin Lennmor says.
Karin Lennmor also remembers what it was like when Princess Madeleine first met Chris and that he made a clear marker when he declined a prince title.
- He wanted to be free and not have that burden around his neck. Madeleine, on the other hand, was very anxious that Leonore, her first child, should receive a princess title. So already then she highlighted that even though my husband doesn't want to be a prince, we don't want to be excluded from the royal family, and they are not either, says Karin Lennmor.
A clear signal - the summer picture from Solliden
All the years, the royal family has been photographed in front of Solliden's castle on Öland. Last year, only one image was published of the royal couple, the crown princess couple and Princess Estelle and Prince Oscar.
- It can definitely be seen as a signal. I reacted myself when I saw the picture. On the other hand, we must not forget that the whole royal family has become so good themselves on social media by posting pictures, says Karin Lennmor.
Among other things, she takes up the photo that Princess Madeleine posted on herself and her family from Solliden. Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia also posted a summer picture of themselves and the sons.
- But there is still something in this, that one may have paved the way for this decision in that picture.
That there was no official 40-year celebration for Carl-Philip in May this year, however, is nothing Karin Lennmor sees as a clue to the king's decision.
- Only the heirs to the throne, in this case Crown Princess Victoria, have official birthday celebrations, so it's not strange at all.
Recently, the court's website has also seen an increasing focus on the royal couple and the crown princess couple.
- It is something I have been thinking about, but there I have concluded that the royal family has become so much more involved with the media. The court has also received a new good digital editor. However, both Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine have been good at this by posting their own pictures.
Karin Lennmor believes that when Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine can count on a smaller apanage, it will not be a problem, as both have their own careers. Princess Madeleine has started her career as a children's book writer and Prince Carl Philip has his design company.
- So they will not be poor and their children will do well in the future as well. I am convinced of that, she says.
Expressen has sought Margareta Thorgren for a comment.
Spelet bakom kungens beslut om barnbarnen
Thank you for this informative post !

I was quite surprised to hear that Madeleine was anxious for Leonore to be a princess and that it was she who pushed for her children to be members of the Royal House when they were born. Previously, most people here assumed, I guess, that the decision to make Leonore an HRH had come from the King because Victoria at the time had only one daughter. But , in hindsight, now that it has become clear that HRH status and succession rights are not linked, I guess that interpretation didn’t really make sense.

Anyway, I think that article gives interesting clues about Madeleine and she feels about leaving royal life behind.
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  #242  
Old 02-06-2020, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Thank you for this informative post !

I was quite surprised to hear that Madeleine was anxious for Leonore to be a princess and that it was she who pushed for her children to be members of the Royal House when they were born. Previously, most people here assumed, I guess, that the decision to make Leonore an HRH had come from the King because Victoria at the time had only one daughter. But , in hindsight, now that it has become clear that HRH status and succession rights are not linked, I guess that interpretation didn’t really make sense.

Anyway, I think that article gives interesting clues about Madeleine and she feels about leaving royal life behind.
It’s a big assumption to say that Expressen, which is on par with The Daily Mail, has inside knowledge of what discussions happened around Leonore’s birth.
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  #243  
Old 02-09-2020, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
That is actually unclear. Prior to 1979, the default was that all male line descendants of Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte were princes or princesses of Sweden, but those who married morganatically (and their respective descendants) lost their titles.



After 1980, at first it looked like the new default would be that all descendants of Carl XVI Gustaf (either in male or female line) would be princes or princesses of Sweden, which of course would be unmanageable in the long run. Following the August 2019 announcement, the rule now seems to be simply that princes and princesses of Sweden are whoever the King decides they are, which I also find problematic.
It looks clear that the introduction of female succession in 1980 did not produce any new rules on titles.

Contrast the changes to the constitution's Act of Succession in 1980 with the changes in the language used in the Dutch and Belgian constitutions respectively in 1963 and 1991. In connection with changes to the succession rights of women, the Dutch constitution replaced "Prince or Princess of the reigning dynasty" with "man or woman", and the Belgian constitution replaced "prince" with "descendant", implying that female-line grandchildren in the order of succession were not certain to be princes and princesses.

Sweden, on the other hand, merely replaced "prince of the royal house" with "prince and princess of the royal house" in 1980, e.g.

Prins av det kungl. huset må ej gifta sig, med mindre Konungen, sedan statsrådets tankar inhämtats, därtill lämnat samtycke. Sker det ändock, have han förverkat arvsrätt till riket för sig, barn och efterkommande. Lag samma vare, om han med eller utan sådant samtycke, tager till gemål enskild svensk mans dotter.

Prins och prinsessa av det kungl. huset må ej gifta sig, med mindre regeringen på hemställan av Konungen därtill lämnat samtycke. Sker det ändock, have han eller hon förverkat arvsrätt till riket för sig, barn och efterkommande.

implying that grandchildren in either female or male line, when in the line of succession, would be princes and princesses and members of the royal house.



The announcement in October 2019 seems to communicate that from here on, the princes and princesses of Sweden will be those who carry out, or are expected to carry out, official representation and benefit from public funding.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...e304a869f.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Thank you for this informative post !

I was quite surprised to hear that Madeleine was anxious for Leonore to be a princess and that it was she who pushed for her children to be members of the Royal House when they were born. Previously, most people here assumed, I guess, that the decision to make Leonore an HRH had come from the King because Victoria at the time had only one daughter. But , in hindsight, now that it has become clear that HRH status and succession rights are not linked, I guess that interpretation didn’t really make sense.

Anyway, I think that article gives interesting clues about Madeleine and she feels about leaving royal life behind.
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Originally Posted by katiebird View Post
It’s a big assumption to say that Expressen, which is on par with The Daily Mail, has inside knowledge of what discussions happened around Leonore’s birth.
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
In general everything written by Karin Lenmor should be taken with a massive pinch of salt. She writes opinion pieces for Expressen where facts, unnamed sources and her own thoughts intermingle to form one big mess. Expressen in general is a serious newspaper that unfortunately mixes serious journalism with gossip about celebrities and royals so again take their royal articles with a pinch of salt. Sometimes they're right and sometimes they're very wrong. In this case I'll bet my socks on them having made things up from thin air.

The impressions I've received of Expressen in general and the less-serious reporting of Karin Lennmor in particular are along the same lines as what was written by JR76. It is impossible to definitively state that Ms. Lennmor's anonymous source is truthful or untruthful, but even if one believes their claim that someone had to "press" the king to apply the default rule, the anonymous person's claim that it was Princess Madeleine rather than Prince Carl Philip looks inconsistent with the confirmed facts. Princess Madeleine's wedding was low-key in comparison to her brother's, she has given a minimal number of interviews in comparison to her brother, and her statement reacting to the removal of her children from the Royal House highlighted their status as private citizens while her brother's statement highlighted that he and his wife "value and are proud of" their children's princely and ducal titles.
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  #244  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It looks clear that the introduction of female succession in 1980 did not produce any new rules on titles.

Contrast the changes to the constitution's Act of Succession in 1980 with the changes in the language used in the Dutch and Belgian constitutions respectively in 1963 and 1991. In connection with changes to the succession rights of women, the Dutch constitution replaced "Prince or Princess of the reigning dynasty" with "man or woman", and the Belgian constitution replaced "prince" with "descendant", implying that female-line grandchildren in the order of succession were not certain to be princes and princesses.

Sweden, on the other hand, merely replaced "prince of the royal house" with "prince and princess of the royal house" in 1980, e.g.

Prins av det kungl. huset må ej gifta sig, med mindre Konungen, sedan statsrådets tankar inhämtats, därtill lämnat samtycke. Sker det ändock, have han förverkat arvsrätt till riket för sig, barn och efterkommande. Lag samma vare, om han med eller utan sådant samtycke, tager till gemål enskild svensk mans dotter.

Prins och prinsessa av det kungl. huset må ej gifta sig, med mindre regeringen på hemställan av Konungen därtill lämnat samtycke. Sker det ändock, have han eller hon förverkat arvsrätt till riket för sig, barn och efterkommande.

implying that grandchildren in either female or male line, when in the line of succession, would be princes and princesses and members of the royal house.



The announcement in October 2019 seems to communicate that from here on, the princes and princesses of Sweden will be those who carry out, or are expected to carry out, official representation and benefit from public funding.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...e304a869f.html









The impressions I've received of Expressen in general and the less-serious reporting of Karin Lennmor in particular are along the same lines as what was written by JR76. It is impossible to definitively state that Ms. Lennmor's anonymous source is truthful or untruthful, but even if one believes their claim that someone had to "press" the king to apply the default rule, the anonymous person's claim that it was Princess Madeleine rather than Prince Carl Philip looks inconsistent with the confirmed facts. Princess Madeleine's wedding was low-key in comparison to her brother's, she has given a minimal number of interviews in comparison to her brother, and her statement reacting to the removal of her children from the Royal House highlighted their status as private citizens while her brother's statement highlighted that he and his wife "value and are proud of" their children's princely and ducal titles.
Man and woman are not used in the Dutch Constitution. It uses gender-neutral language as "successors" or "children" or "issue".
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  #245  
Old 02-09-2020, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Man and woman are not used in the Dutch Constitution. It uses gender-neutral language as "successors" or "children" or "issue".
"Man or woman" was used in Article 17 of the Dutch Constitution as it was written from 1963 until 1983:

Van de erfopvolging, zowel voor zich zelf als voor hun nakomelingen, zijn uitgesloten alle kinderen, geboren uit een huwelijk aangegaan door een Koning buiten gemeen overleg met de Staten-Generaal, of door een man of vrouw, die de Kroon van de regerende Koning kan beërven, buiten bij de wet verleende toestemming.

The change which I meant to concentrate on, however, was that when the male line took priority in the order of succession (before 1963), the Dutch Constitution used "Prince or Princess" rather than "man or woman" when referencing successors from the reigning dynasty. That change did not happen in Sweden.
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  #246  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
"Man or woman" was used in Article 17 of the Dutch Constitution as it was written from 1963 until 1983:

Van de erfopvolging, zowel voor zich zelf als voor hun nakomelingen, zijn uitgesloten alle kinderen, geboren uit een huwelijk aangegaan door een Koning buiten gemeen overleg met de Staten-Generaal, of door een man of vrouw, die de Kroon van de regerende Koning kan beërven, buiten bij de wet verleende toestemming.

The change which I meant to concentrate on, however, was that when the male line took priority in the order of succession (before 1963), the Dutch Constitution used "Prince or Princess" rather than "man or woman" when referencing successors from the reigning dynasty. That change did not happen in Sweden.
Thanks for the correction. I was looking in the current Constitution but I see you referred to an older situation.
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  #247  
Old 02-09-2020, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


The announcement in October 2019 seems to communicate that from here on, the princes and princesses of Sweden will be those who carry out, or are expected to carry out, official representation and benefit from public funding.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...e304a869f.html









The impressions I've received of Expressen in general and the less-serious reporting of Karin Lennmor in particular are along the same lines as what was written by JR76. It is impossible to definitively state that Ms. Lennmor's anonymous source is truthful or untruthful, but even if one believes their claim that someone had to "press" the king to apply the default rule, the anonymous person's claim that it was Princess Madeleine rather than Prince Carl Philip looks inconsistent with the confirmed facts. Princess Madeleine's wedding was low-key in comparison to her brother's, she has given a minimal number of interviews in comparison to her brother, and her statement reacting to the removal of her children from the Royal House highlighted their status as private citizens while her brother's statement highlighted that he and his wife "value and are proud of" their children's princely and ducal titles.



If anyone pressed for titles, I guess that, chronologically, it must have been Princess Madeleine for the simple reason that Leonore was born before Carl Philip's sons. It would have been odd for CP to opine about her sister's children's titles and much less to raise that issue with his parents.
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  #248  
Old 02-10-2020, 01:50 PM
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Svensk Damtidning last week:

Crisis in Europe's monarchies! Victoria & Estelle will save our royal family
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We sort out the crisis in Europe's monarchies - and are grateful to Crown Princess Victoria and Princess Estelle!
You can safely say that there are new times in royal Europe. In recent years we have seen -one royal icon after another disappearing to the left.
Princess Madeleine, Prince Carl Philip, Princess Sofia and all their five children are out of the picture. Prince Joachim and Princess Marie have left the Danish field and moved to Paris. Yes, even Prince Harry, Princess Diana's charm prince son, has left the arena with Meghan in dramatic form.
Everywhere we see the same thing - royal families are becoming smaller throughout Europe. But here in Sweden we are strong - thanks to the duo Crown Princess Victoria and Princess Estelle! They are the future and those who will save the Swedish monarchy.
And as they will do it! We can feel completely safe with our wise, empathetic and strong crown princess at the helm. Estelle, in turn, attends her mother's queen's school, and she listens and takes in everything with big eyes and ears.
If we are lucky we will also see Princess Madeleine, Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia when it is time for the Nobel party and the King's birthday. But then it won't be much more.
A huge change, especially for Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip who were born into all this. For their children, who have been deprived of their titles, it probably makes no difference at all, they are all so tiny that they have not even realized that they are royal. And they have never lived other than the usual ordinary life.
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  #249  
Old Today, 11:52 AM
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Wikipedia mentions an alleged Swedish order of precedence although it does not provide any hard reference to back it up.



Assuming, however, that the aforementioned order of precedence is correct, it places the members of the Royal House on top, followed by the King's sisters as members of the King's extended family (but not of the Royal House) and, then, by the high-ranking civil authorities or officials of the Royal Court like the Speaker of the Parliament, the Prime Minister, the Marshal of the Realm, and so on, so forth.


Given that Prince Carl Philip's and Princess Madeleine's have been now moved from members of the Royal House to members of the extended Royal Family, has their precedence also been changed ? One possible guess is that they are now placed below all members of the Royal House (including Princess Birgitta), but above the King's other sisters and, among themselves, are accorded precedence according to their place in the line of succession. I don't know if that assumption is correct though.



Did the Court issue any statement about the precedence of the King's grandchildren after they ceased to be HRHs ? Any information on that topic and the Swedish order of precedence in general is appreciated.
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  #250  
Old Today, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Wikipedia mentions an alleged Swedish order of precedence although it does not provide any hard reference to back it up.



Assuming, however, that the aforementioned order of precedence is correct, it places the members of the Royal House on top, followed by the King's sisters as members of the King's extended family (but not of the Royal House) and, then, by the high-ranking civil authorities or officials of the Royal Court like the Speaker of the Parliament, the Prime Minister, the Marshal of the Realm, and so on, so forth.


Given that Prince Carl Philip's and Princess Madeleine's have been now moved from members of the Royal House to members of the extended Royal Family, has their precedence also been changed ? One possible guess is that they are now placed below all members of the Royal House (including Princess Birgitta), but above the King's other sisters and, among themselves, are accorded precedence according to their place in the line of succession. I don't know if that assumption is correct though.



Did the Court issue any statement about the precedence of the King's grandchildren after they ceased to be HRHs ? Any information on that topic and the Swedish order of precedence in general is appreciated.
The Court calender hasn't included an Order of Precedence since 2012. A post on Kungahuset.se from 2011 about one of the representationdinners mentions seating according to the OoP but as that was before it was last published in the CC then who knows what's valid today. It's worth mentioning that the OoP is a guide on how to seat people at official and royal functions but without any legal standing and therefore never mandatory with exceptions often made for people without a formal rank.
Apparently the CC for 2019 was delayed to be able to include the changes regarding the King's grandchildren but I don't know what's written. Probably nothing more than moving them from the Royal House to the Royal family.
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  #251  
Old Today, 05:30 PM
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The Court calender hasn't included an Order of Precedence since 2012. A post on Kungahuset.se from 2011 about one of the representationdinners mentions seating according to the OoP but as that was before it was last published in the CC then who knows what's valid today. It's worth mentioning that the OoP is a guide on how to seat people at official and royal functions but without any legal standing and therefore never mandatory with exceptions often made for people without a formal rank.
Apparently the CC for 2019 was delayed to be able to include the changes regarding the King's grandchildren but I don't know what's written. Probably nothing more than moving them from the Royal House to the Royal family.
Interesting. Has the Court Calendar been published on the website?

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Wikipedia mentions an alleged Swedish order of precedence although it does not provide any hard reference to back it up.



Assuming, however, that the aforementioned order of precedence is correct, it places the members of the Royal House on top, followed by the King's sisters as members of the King's extended family (but not of the Royal House) and, then, by the high-ranking civil authorities or officials of the Royal Court like the Speaker of the Parliament, the Prime Minister, the Marshal of the Realm, and so on, so forth.


Given that Prince Carl Philip's and Princess Madeleine's have been now moved from members of the Royal House to members of the extended Royal Family, has their precedence also been changed ? One possible guess is that they are now placed below all members of the Royal House (including Princess Birgitta), but above the King's other sisters and, among themselves, are accorded precedence according to their place in the line of succession. I don't know if that assumption is correct though.



Did the Court issue any statement about the precedence of the King's grandchildren after they ceased to be HRHs ? Any information on that topic and the Swedish order of precedence in general is appreciated.
The listing of the members of the Royal Family on the palace website places the King's grandchildren ahead of the King's sisters.

Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus

On a related note, two other modifications to the Kungafamiljen web page were made: The portrait of the King and Queen together with their descendants with their spouses was substituted with a portrait of the direct line of succession, and, for less clear reasons, the statement "The Royal House of Sweden belongs to the house of Bernadotte, which for over 200 years has occupied the throne of Sweden" was added.
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  #252  
Old Today, 06:47 PM
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Interesting. Has the Court Calendar been published on the website?
No you have to order a paper copy from Riksmarskalsämbetet.

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The listing of the members of the Royal Family on the palace website places the King's grandchildren ahead of the King's sisters.
Probably because the children are still in the line of succession while the King's sisters never were.
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