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  #241  
Old 02-09-2020, 01:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
"Man or woman" was used in Article 17 of the Dutch Constitution as it was written from 1963 until 1983:

Van de erfopvolging, zowel voor zich zelf als voor hun nakomelingen, zijn uitgesloten alle kinderen, geboren uit een huwelijk aangegaan door een Koning buiten gemeen overleg met de Staten-Generaal, of door een man of vrouw, die de Kroon van de regerende Koning kan beërven, buiten bij de wet verleende toestemming.

The change which I meant to concentrate on, however, was that when the male line took priority in the order of succession (before 1963), the Dutch Constitution used "Prince or Princess" rather than "man or woman" when referencing successors from the reigning dynasty. That change did not happen in Sweden.
Thanks for the correction. I was looking in the current Constitution but I see you referred to an older situation.
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  #242  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


The announcement in October 2019 seems to communicate that from here on, the princes and princesses of Sweden will be those who carry out, or are expected to carry out, official representation and benefit from public funding.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...e304a869f.html









The impressions I've received of Expressen in general and the less-serious reporting of Karin Lennmor in particular are along the same lines as what was written by JR76. It is impossible to definitively state that Ms. Lennmor's anonymous source is truthful or untruthful, but even if one believes their claim that someone had to "press" the king to apply the default rule, the anonymous person's claim that it was Princess Madeleine rather than Prince Carl Philip looks inconsistent with the confirmed facts. Princess Madeleine's wedding was low-key in comparison to her brother's, she has given a minimal number of interviews in comparison to her brother, and her statement reacting to the removal of her children from the Royal House highlighted their status as private citizens while her brother's statement highlighted that he and his wife "value and are proud of" their children's princely and ducal titles.



If anyone pressed for titles, I guess that, chronologically, it must have been Princess Madeleine for the simple reason that Leonore was born before Carl Philip's sons. It would have been odd for CP to opine about her sister's children's titles and much less to raise that issue with his parents.
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  #243  
Old 02-10-2020, 12:50 PM
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Svensk Damtidning last week:

Crisis in Europe's monarchies! Victoria & Estelle will save our royal family
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We sort out the crisis in Europe's monarchies - and are grateful to Crown Princess Victoria and Princess Estelle!
You can safely say that there are new times in royal Europe. In recent years we have seen -one royal icon after another disappearing to the left.
Princess Madeleine, Prince Carl Philip, Princess Sofia and all their five children are out of the picture. Prince Joachim and Princess Marie have left the Danish field and moved to Paris. Yes, even Prince Harry, Princess Diana's charm prince son, has left the arena with Meghan in dramatic form.
Everywhere we see the same thing - royal families are becoming smaller throughout Europe. But here in Sweden we are strong - thanks to the duo Crown Princess Victoria and Princess Estelle! They are the future and those who will save the Swedish monarchy.
And as they will do it! We can feel completely safe with our wise, empathetic and strong crown princess at the helm. Estelle, in turn, attends her mother's queen's school, and she listens and takes in everything with big eyes and ears.
If we are lucky we will also see Princess Madeleine, Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia when it is time for the Nobel party and the King's birthday. But then it won't be much more.
A huge change, especially for Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip who were born into all this. For their children, who have been deprived of their titles, it probably makes no difference at all, they are all so tiny that they have not even realized that they are royal. And they have never lived other than the usual ordinary life.
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  #244  
Old 02-23-2020, 10:52 AM
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Wikipedia mentions an alleged Swedish order of precedence although it does not provide any hard reference to back it up.



Assuming, however, that the aforementioned order of precedence is correct, it places the members of the Royal House on top, followed by the King's sisters as members of the King's extended family (but not of the Royal House) and, then, by the high-ranking civil authorities or officials of the Royal Court like the Speaker of the Parliament, the Prime Minister, the Marshal of the Realm, and so on, so forth.


Given that Prince Carl Philip's and Princess Madeleine's have been now moved from members of the Royal House to members of the extended Royal Family, has their precedence also been changed ? One possible guess is that they are now placed below all members of the Royal House (including Princess Birgitta), but above the King's other sisters and, among themselves, are accorded precedence according to their place in the line of succession. I don't know if that assumption is correct though.



Did the Court issue any statement about the precedence of the King's grandchildren after they ceased to be HRHs ? Any information on that topic and the Swedish order of precedence in general is appreciated.
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  #245  
Old 02-23-2020, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Wikipedia mentions an alleged Swedish order of precedence although it does not provide any hard reference to back it up.



Assuming, however, that the aforementioned order of precedence is correct, it places the members of the Royal House on top, followed by the King's sisters as members of the King's extended family (but not of the Royal House) and, then, by the high-ranking civil authorities or officials of the Royal Court like the Speaker of the Parliament, the Prime Minister, the Marshal of the Realm, and so on, so forth.


Given that Prince Carl Philip's and Princess Madeleine's have been now moved from members of the Royal House to members of the extended Royal Family, has their precedence also been changed ? One possible guess is that they are now placed below all members of the Royal House (including Princess Birgitta), but above the King's other sisters and, among themselves, are accorded precedence according to their place in the line of succession. I don't know if that assumption is correct though.



Did the Court issue any statement about the precedence of the King's grandchildren after they ceased to be HRHs ? Any information on that topic and the Swedish order of precedence in general is appreciated.
The Court calender hasn't included an Order of Precedence since 2012. A post on Kungahuset.se from 2011 about one of the representationdinners mentions seating according to the OoP but as that was before it was last published in the CC then who knows what's valid today. It's worth mentioning that the OoP is a guide on how to seat people at official and royal functions but without any legal standing and therefore never mandatory with exceptions often made for people without a formal rank.
Apparently the CC for 2019 was delayed to be able to include the changes regarding the King's grandchildren but I don't know what's written. Probably nothing more than moving them from the Royal House to the Royal family.
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  #246  
Old 02-23-2020, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
The Court calender hasn't included an Order of Precedence since 2012. A post on Kungahuset.se from 2011 about one of the representationdinners mentions seating according to the OoP but as that was before it was last published in the CC then who knows what's valid today. It's worth mentioning that the OoP is a guide on how to seat people at official and royal functions but without any legal standing and therefore never mandatory with exceptions often made for people without a formal rank.
Apparently the CC for 2019 was delayed to be able to include the changes regarding the King's grandchildren but I don't know what's written. Probably nothing more than moving them from the Royal House to the Royal family.
Interesting. Has the Court Calendar been published on the website?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Wikipedia mentions an alleged Swedish order of precedence although it does not provide any hard reference to back it up.



Assuming, however, that the aforementioned order of precedence is correct, it places the members of the Royal House on top, followed by the King's sisters as members of the King's extended family (but not of the Royal House) and, then, by the high-ranking civil authorities or officials of the Royal Court like the Speaker of the Parliament, the Prime Minister, the Marshal of the Realm, and so on, so forth.


Given that Prince Carl Philip's and Princess Madeleine's have been now moved from members of the Royal House to members of the extended Royal Family, has their precedence also been changed ? One possible guess is that they are now placed below all members of the Royal House (including Princess Birgitta), but above the King's other sisters and, among themselves, are accorded precedence according to their place in the line of succession. I don't know if that assumption is correct though.



Did the Court issue any statement about the precedence of the King's grandchildren after they ceased to be HRHs ? Any information on that topic and the Swedish order of precedence in general is appreciated.
The listing of the members of the Royal Family on the palace website places the King's grandchildren ahead of the King's sisters.

Kungafamiljen - Sveriges Kungahus

On a related note, two other modifications to the Kungafamiljen web page were made: The portrait of the King and Queen together with their descendants with their spouses was substituted with a portrait of the direct line of succession, and, for less clear reasons, the statement "The Royal House of Sweden belongs to the house of Bernadotte, which for over 200 years has occupied the throne of Sweden" was added.
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  #247  
Old 02-23-2020, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Interesting. Has the Court Calendar been published on the website?
No you have to order a paper copy from Riksmarskalsämbetet (The Office of the Marshal of the Realm).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
The listing of the members of the Royal Family on the palace website places the King's grandchildren ahead of the King's sisters.
Probably because the children are still in the line of succession while the King's sisters never were.
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  #248  
Old 03-18-2020, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Do you have a source for this? I am aware of the announcement regarding Jonas Bergström, but official spokespersons and Chris O'Neill himself (in an interview in 2018) have talked of his refusal to become a prince.
Thanks for the link, I had not read that interview previously. However, it does not state that he was offered a prince title. In the first part he clearly states that he was not interested in taking on public assignments (his way of describing taking up a 'royal role') nor title (he preferred to remain mr Christopher O'Neill); and even says 'it was never an option' - this might mean that he made it clear from the start that he wasn't interested in any of it or that it was never offered. In the end, he indeed states that he was offered it once but said no; still I wonder whether he is generally talking about 'a royal role & a title that comes with it' and not necessarily the 'offer of becoming a prince'. Given that he also said he made it clear from the start that he was not interested in royal life, I don't think he ever received a formal 'offer' to become a prince of Sweden. In addition, I still cannot imagine the king offering Jonas only a ducal title but Chris to become a prince. However, unless Chris explains in more detailed how all discussions went, I don't think we will know for sure.
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  #249  
Old 04-01-2020, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
Thanks for the link, I had not read that interview previously. However, it does not state that he was offered a prince title. In the first part he clearly states that he was not interested in taking on public assignments (his way of describing taking up a 'royal role') nor title (he preferred to remain mr Christopher O'Neill); and even says 'it was never an option' - this might mean that he made it clear from the start that he wasn't interested in any of it or that it was never offered. In the end, he indeed states that he was offered it once but said no; still I wonder whether he is generally talking about 'a royal role & a title that comes with it' and not necessarily the 'offer of becoming a prince'. Given that he also said he made it clear from the start that he was not interested in royal life, I don't think he ever received a formal 'offer' to become a prince of Sweden.

You're very welcome. I missed that you had moved your response to this thread.

Well, but the interviewer asked precisely about a "prince title", not a "royal role":

Quote:
Skulle du överväga en prinstitel den dag du går i pension?
– Det har jag aldrig ens tänkt på.

Så du säger inte nej?
– Det är ett erbjudande man bara får en gång i livet. Jag svarade nej.

Quote:
(Will you consider a prince title when you retire?
- It's not something I've ever even considered.

So you aren't saying no?
- It's an offer you only get once in a lifetime. I said no.)

In addition, spokespersons for the palace have referred to a "prince title", in this quote from Margareta Thorgren for example.

Quote:
Diskussionen om Chris bolag påbörjades långt innan Chris O'Neill och Madeleines bröllop. Det var i samband med att man gjorde ställningstaganden kring Chris eventuella prinstitel.

(The discussion on Chris's company began long before Chris O'Neill and Madeleine's wedding. It was with regard to arriving at a determination about Chris's possible prince title.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Somebody View Post
In addition, I still cannot imagine the king offering Jonas only a ducal title but Chris to become a prince. However, unless Chris explains in more detailed how all discussions went, I don't think we will know for sure.

Do we know what the king offered to Jonas Bergström? According to the articles I have located, only the final decision was published.

Given that it was stated that Jonas would continue working (as a lawyer) after marriage, I think it is at least a possibility that he was offered the same choice between his career and a prince title as Christopher O'Neill:

Quote:
Mr Christopher O'Neill's title

Mr Christopher O'Neill is and remains an American citizen, and he intends to continue his business activities as before following his marriage to H.R.H. Princess Madeleine. In accordance with royal protocol, a member of the Royal Family should be a Swedish citizen, and should not hold a position of responsibility within business.

This means that, in accordance with these principles, Mr Christopher O'Neill cannot hold the title H.R.H. Prince of Sweden or Duke of Gästrikland and Hälsingland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
If anyone pressed for titles, I guess that, chronologically, it must have been Princess Madeleine for the simple reason that Leonore was born before Carl Philip's sons. It would have been odd for CP to opine about her sister's children's titles and much less to raise that issue with his parents.
But it would be the natural timeframe for arriving at a decision for Carl Philip's future children as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
No you have to order a paper copy from Riksmarskalsämbetet (The Office of the Marshal of the Realm).
I see. If anybody orders a paper copy of the calendar for 2019, I would be curious to know whether it confirms that the grandchildren have lost the territorial designation "of Sweden".
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  #250  
Old 08-30-2020, 12:19 PM
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About the future status of children of spares

Lennart Bernadotte is the only child of a spare that received a princely title, a ducal title and succession rights before he gave them up for an unequal marriage. He is the only son of Wilhelm, the second son of Gustaf V.

Succession rights, 1916.10.31
  • Gustaf V (Värmland)
    • Gustaf VI Adolf (Skåne)
      • Gustaf Adolf (Västerbotten), sired the 4 Haga Princesses and Carl XVI Gustaf
      • Sigvard (Uppland, lsr 1934), children had no Swedish titles
      • Bertil (Halland), childless
      • Carl Johan (Dalarna, lsr 1946), children had no Swedish titles
    • Wilhelm (Södermanland)
      • Lennart (Småland, lsr 1932), children had no Swedish titles
    • Erik (Västmanland), childless
  • Oscar (Gotland, lsr 1889)
    • Folke (no succession rights)
  • Carl (Västergötland)
    • Carl (Östergötland, lsr 1937), children had no Swedish titles
  • Eugen (Närke), childless
lsr = lost succession rights

At that time there are 11 active duchies in Sweden (13 if you count Gustaf V who was reigning and Oscar who lost it as of 1889). That is all 6 provinces in Svealand plus 4 from pre-1658 Götaland, 2 from the Scanian lands and 1 from Norrland.
-
As of 2019, the succession list is as follows:
  • Carl XVI Gustaf (Jämtland)
    • Victoria (Västergötland)
      • Estelle (Östergötland)
      • Oscar (Skåne)
    • Carl Philip (Värmland)
      • Alexander (Södermanland)
      • Gabriel (Dalarna)
    • Madeleine (Hälsingland and Gästrikland)
      • Leonore (Gotland)
      • Nicolas (Ångermanland)
      • Adrienne (Blekinge)

There are 12 active duchies now (if we count Carl XVI Gustaf's duchy and Madeleine's double duchy in, too).
4 of them are from Norrland, 5 from Götaland, and 3 from Svealand.

Something in common is that children of spares (e.g. Lennart and Carl, as well as Leonore and Alexander) have ducal titles though Lennart and Carl lost them due to unequal marriage while Leonore and Alexander kept them while being freed of royal duties. Will Oscar (Duke of Skåne)'s children receive no ducal titles?
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  #251  
Old 08-30-2020, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 0325.Mikael.0929 View Post
Something in common is that children of spares (e.g. Lennart and Carl, as well as Leonore and Alexander) have ducal titles though Lennart and Carl lost them due to unequal marriage while Leonore and Alexander kept them while being freed of royal duties. Will Oscar (Duke of Skåne)'s children receive no ducal titles?
Nothing was stated at the press conference last year regarding titles of future members of the Royal Family, other than that the princely and ducal titles of Alexander, Gabriel, Leonore, Nicolas, and Adrienne will not be shared with their spouses or children (and the reigning monarch is in principle entitled to reverse that decision whenever they please).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0325.Mikael.0929 View Post
Lennart Bernadotte is the only child of a spare that received a princely title, a ducal title and succession rights before he gave them up for an unequal marriage. He is the only son of Wilhelm, the second son of Gustaf V.
As you pointed out later in your post, the same happened to Prince Carl, Duke of Östergötland, the only son of the third son of King Oscar II. Until 2019, there was no titular differentiation between the child of an heir and the child of a spare.
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  #252  
Old 08-30-2020, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0325.Mikael.0929 View Post
Lennart Bernadotte is the only child of a spare that received a princely title, a ducal title and succession rights before he gave them up for an unequal marriage. He is the only son of Wilhelm, the second son of Gustaf V.

There are 12 active duchies now (if we count Carl XVI Gustaf's duchy and Madeleine's double duchy in, too).
4 of them are from Norrland, 5 from Götaland, and 3 from Svealand.

Something in common is that children of spares (e.g. Lennart and Carl, as well as Leonore and Alexander) have ducal titles though Lennart and Carl lost them due to unequal marriage while Leonore and Alexander kept them while being freed of royal duties. Will Oscar (Duke of Skåne)'s children receive no ducal titles?
I'd say the main difference in these situations is that those who lost their titles are no longer in the line of succession while those who kept them still are (although I still think it's a bit weird that it is up to the Swedish royal family to interpret the rules regarding whether Madeleine's children can remain in the line of succession while not growing up in Sweden).
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  #253  
Old 08-30-2020, 03:43 PM
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I'd say the main difference in these situations is that those who lost their titles are no longer in the line of succession while those who kept them still are (although I still think it's a bit weird that it is up to the Swedish royal family to interpret the rules regarding whether Madeleine's children can remain in the line of succession while not growing up in Sweden).

The Court's interpretation seems to be that, since they are no longer members of the Royal House, Madeleine's and Carl Philip's children are no longer subject to the requirements in the Act of Succession that apply explicitly to "Princes and Princesses of the Royal House", namely:


1) Being raised in Sweden.


2) Having to obtain the consent of the Swedish government (granted upon application by the King) to marry.


3) Having to obtain the consent of the King and of the Parliament of Sweden to become the sovereign of a foreign state.



According to the Court, the only requirement that still applies to them as far as succession rights are concerned is to profess the "pure evangelical faith" as described and adopted in the unaltered Confession of Augsburg and the resolutions of the synod of Uppsala of 1593. That is because, according to the Act of Succession, any member of the Royal Family (as opposed to the Royal House) not professing that faith is excluded from all rights of succession.



I am not sure if I agree with this interpretation, but I think it has little practical significance given CP's and Madeleine's children's position in the line of succession. It will be an issue, probably only for Alexander and Gabriel, in the unlikely event that neither Estelle nor Oscar have any children of their own.
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  #254  
Old 08-30-2020, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The Court's interpretation seems to be that, since they are no longer members of the Royal House, Madeleine's and Carl Philip's children are no longer subject to the requirements in the Act of Succession that apply explicitly to "Princes and Princesses of the Royal House", namely:

1) Being raised in Sweden.

2) Having to obtain the consent of the Swedish government (granted upon application by the King) to marry.

3) Having to obtain the consent of the King and of the Parliament of Sweden to become the sovereign of a foreign state.

According to the Court, the only requirement that still applies to them as far as succession rights are concerned is to profess the "pure evangelical faith" as described and adopted in the unaltered Confession of Augsburg and the resolutions of the synod of Uppsala of 1593. That is because, according to the Act of Succession, any member of the Royal Family (as opposed to the Royal House) not professing that faith is excluded from all rights of succession.

I am not sure if I agree with this interpretation, but I think it has little practical significance given CP's and Madeleine's children's position in the line of succession. It will be an issue, probably only for Alexander and Gabriel, in the unlikely event that neither Estelle nor Oscar have any children of their own.
Yes, that's indeed how they interpreted it. Of course, these regulations were never meant to provide a way out of the regulations pertaining to those with succession rights - everyone with succession rights would be expected to be a member of the royal house and a prince(ss) of Sweden, so those rules would apply to each and everyone in the line of succession. By kicking them out of the royal houses and removing the 'of Sweden' (but keeping them princes and princesses and continuing their ducal titles) they circumvented the rules... And I don't think it should be up to the royal house themselves to decide whether this is allowable.
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  #255  
Old 08-30-2020, 06:29 PM
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And I don't think it should be up to the royal house themselves to decide whether this is allowable.
I have a feeling that there will be developments in that area once the parliamentary inquiry into, among other things, a reform of the finances of the court and how that will affect who in the Royal family is expected to carry out representative duties. I think that the court is being consciously vague not to set a precedent that could back them into a corner in the future and keep as much of leeway as possible.
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  #256  
Old 08-30-2020, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I have a feeling that there will be developments in that area once the parliamentary inquiry into, among other things, a reform of the finances of the court and how that will affect who in the Royal family is expected to carry out representative duties.
If the current rules are retroactively applied in 1916,
It's unsure if Carl and Eugen (brothers of Gustaf V) would remain members of the House, though they would have minimal duties (like Princess Birgitta) and would very likely not receive taxpayer money.
-
Prince Carl, Duke of Östergötland would not be a member of the house when he was born and he would not have an HRH to begin with.
-
Gustaf V's 3 sons, Gustaf VI Adolf, Wilhelm and Erik would have retained HRHs
and would very likely be receiving taxpayer money (like Victoria, Carl Philip and Madeleine).
-
Wilhelm's son, Lennart, would not be a member of the house, and similar to Carl, he would not have an HRH to begin with.
-
Gustaf VI Adolf had had 4 sons by that time, and all of them would be funded by appanage and be styled HRH.
-
The Swedish people would have 8 royal house members (excluding their spouses) to fund as opposed to 12 that happened in reality.
-
In 2019 the Swedes funded 6 royal house members (excluding their spouses) instead of 11 in 2018.
-
Keeping the royal house simple is always a subject matter in Sweden. Perhaps the max number of royal house members should be set at 10 in case Estelle chose to have 4 children as it was done à la Philippe of Belgium and Frederik X of Denmark?
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  #257  
Old 08-30-2020, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
I have a feeling that there will be developments in that area once the parliamentary inquiry into, among other things, a reform of the finances of the court and how that will affect who in the Royal family is expected to carry out representative duties. I think that the court is being consciously vague not to set a precedent that could back them into a corner in the future and keep as much of leeway as possible.
Thanks! When is the report expected? It indeed makes sense to wait for a more thorough review.

I had the impression the court seems to think that Madeleine's children will remain in the line of succession while growing up in the States... is that something that only has been attributed to them or is did truly what they or more likely their representatives stated.
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  #258  
Old 08-30-2020, 10:05 PM
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Dukedoms of Bernadotte Sweden and their positions in line

Monarch/Xth/Yth/Zth = the Monarch's Xth son/child's Yth son/child's Zth son/child.
(Son before 1977, Child after 1977)
* = Dukedom created after 1818

=SÖDERMANLAND=
Oscar I (Carl XIV Johan/1st)
Carl Oscar (Oscar I/1st/1st)
Wilhelm (Oscar II/1st/2nd)
Alexander (Carl XVI Gustaf/2nd/1st)

=SKÅNE*=
Carl XV (Carl XIV Johan/1st/1st)
Gustaf VI Adolf (Oscar II/1st/1st)
Oscar (Carl XVI Gustaf/1st/2nd)

=UPPLAND=
Gustaf (Carl XIV Johan/1st/2nd, died 1852 before Oscar II ascended in 1872)
Sigvard (Oscar II/1st/1st/2nd, later Count of Wisborg)

=ÖSTERGÖTLAND=
Oscar II (Carl XIV Johan/1st/3rd)
Carl (Oscar II/3rd/1st though Gustaf V was already king by 1911, later granted Belgian "Prince" title)
Estelle (Carl XVI Gustaf/1st/1st)

=DALARNA*=
August (Carl XIV Johan/1st/4th)
Carl Johan (Gustaf V/1st/4th, later CoW)
Gabriel (Carl XVI Gustaf/2nd/2nd)

=VÄRMLAND=
Gustaf V (Oscar I/3rd/1st)
Carl Philip (Carl XVI Gustaf/2nd)

=GOTLAND*=
Oscar (Oscar I/3rd/2nd, later CoW)
Leonore (Carl XVI Gustaf/3rd/1st)

=VÄSTERGÖTLAND=
Carl (Oscar I/3rd/3rd)
Victoria (Carl XVI Gustaf/1st)

=NÄRKE=
Eugen (Oscar I/3rd/4th)

=VÄSTMANLAND=
Erik (Oscar II/1st/3rd)

=VÄSTERBOTTEN*=
Gustaf Adolf (Oscar II/1st/1st/1st)

=HALLAND=
Bertil (Gustaf V/1st/3rd)

=SMÅLAND=
Lennart (Gustaf V/2nd/1st, later CoW)

=JÄMTLAND*=
Carl XVI Gustaf (Gustaf V/1st/1st/1st)

=HÄLSINGLAND & GÄSTRIKLAND*=
Madeleine (Carl XVI Gustaf/3rd)

=ÅNGERMANLAND*=
Nicolas (Carl XVI Gustaf/3rd/2nd)

=BLEKINGE*=
Adrienne (Carl XVI Gustaf/3rd/3rd)

As of now, no Bernadotte has ever received the dukedoms of:
Dalsland, Öland, Bohuslän, Härjedalen, Medelpad, Lappland (and Norrbotten, which was created a county in 1810 but a province in 1995). The former 2 had dukes before 1818 but the latter 5 have never had dukes.

Conclusion:
  1. The heir apparent to the heir apparent to the heir apparent
    usually receive new dukedoms from Norrland at birth.
    (If Carl XVI Gustaf became a centenarian, Estelle would be 34 at that time,
    and she will probably have had a child by then.
    Maybe she (I hope it's a princess) will be known as the Duchess of Norrbotten?)
  2. Otherwise, new dukedoms are usually granted to those who placed lower in the line
    (e.g. Gotland, Hälsingland & Gästrikland, Ångermanland, Blekinge, Dalarna)
    while those higher tends to reuse dukedoms (e.g. Södermanland, Östergötland, Värmland).
    Skåne is an exception.
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  #259  
Old 08-30-2020, 11:11 PM
Countessmeout's Avatar
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If they stick to modern Swedish provinces, there are 5 never used. Two on your list have been used by royal dukes. I don't see the Bernadottes emphasizing their French roots by ignoring they have been used.

The ones left
Bohulsan
Härjedalen
Lapland
Medelpad
Norbotten

Dalsand has had 4 royals dukes, the last one dying in 1595. Oland has had five. The last being Charles X Gustav.

Two natural sons of Oscar I were unofficially called Princes of Lapland. But I don't think that would count against Lapland.

Sorry but I don't get your numbering. How is Alexander 2nd/ 1st of Carl Gustaf? Oscar is. Oscar is the 2nd child of the 1st child of Carl Gustaf. Alexander should be 1st/2nd of Carl Gustaf as he is the 1st son of the 2nd child of Carl Gustaf.
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  #260  
Old 08-30-2020, 11:35 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Hong Kong, Hong Kong
Posts: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
If they stick to modern Swedish provinces, there are 5 never used. Two on your list have been used by royal dukes. I don't see the Bernadottes emphasizing their French roots by ignoring they have been used.

The ones left
Bohulsan
Härjedalen
Lapland
Medelpad
Norbotten

Dalsand has had 4 royals dukes, the last one dying in 1595. Oland has had five. The last being Charles X Gustav.
Of course. But no Bernadotte has ever been granted the dukedoms of Dalsland and Öland, which have been granted to princes before 1818, but not after. Carolus X Gustavus is not a Bernadotte, yet this thread focuses on the Bernadottes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
Sorry but I don't get your numbering. How is Alexander 2nd/ 1st of Carl Gustaf? Oscar is. Oscar is the 2nd child of the 1st child of Carl Gustaf. Alexander should be 1st/2nd of Carl Gustaf as he is the 1st son of the 2nd child of Carl Gustaf.
Read carefully at the beginning of the post first. Xth/Yth means Yth child of the Xth child of the monarch. It is done for the sake of hierarchy just like in YYYY-MM-DD or in computer file paths. It may be a bit difficult for speakers of English to understand, but I also speak Cantonese apart from English and Swedish. "1st/2nd" is "the 1st child's 2nd child" = "the 2nd child of the 1st child" = "1:a barnets 2:a barn".
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