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  #221  
Old 10-14-2019, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Countessmeout View Post
The new precedent simply states that only grandchildren of the monarch by the heir are HRH and of Sweden. Simply that.

Based on the new precdent, Oscar's children will not HRH Prince/ss of Sweden. But its not clear they will have no title at all.
But, historically, only HRHs ( princes of Sweden) had duchies. If I am not mistaken , duchies were explicitly restricted to that class of people in the text of the Instrument of Government of 1808, but I would have to double check that.

I assume then that, going forward, grandchildren who are not HRHs won’t.be dukes either. CP’s and Madeleine’s children are an exception because of the desire to keep the connection they already had with the respective provinces in their duchies.

It should be noted also that princes who lost the HRH in the past because of unequal marriages also lost their duchies.
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  #222  
Old 10-15-2019, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
But, historically, only HRHs ( princes of Sweden) had duchies. If I am not mistaken , duchies were explicitly restricted to that class of in the text of the Instrument of Government of 1808, but I would have to double check that.
§37 of The Instrument of Government of 1809 states that The King may ennoble or confer the titles of baron and count on men who has done outstanding service to The King or The Realm.
§45 mentions that the Crown Prince or Princes of The Royal House may not "have a jointure or hold a public office" but that they may carry the title of Duke or Prince in accordance with old customs without any rights to the province of which they carry a title.
These two paragraphs remained in force until the new Instrument of Government of 1975 and the way I interpret them they limit the titles of duke and prince to male members of the Royal House.
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  #223  
Old 10-15-2019, 03:36 AM
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Has the 1975 diminished the Swedish Nobility ,from what I've read very few new titles were created in the past 100 years which makes me think that the law was a tad unnecessary.
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  #224  
Old 10-15-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
§37 of The Instrument of Government of 1809 states that The King may ennoble or confer the titles of baron and count on men who has done outstanding service to The King or The Realm.
§45 mentions that the Crown Prince or Princes of The Royal House may not "have a jointure or hold a public office" but that they may carry the title of Duke or Prince in accordance with old customs without any rights to the province of which they carry a title.
These two paragraphs remained in force until the new Instrument of Government of 1975 and the way I interpret them they limit the titles of duke and prince to male members of the Royal House.
It is interesting that despite §45 obviously being deleted from the new Instrument of Government of 1975, the King's conferrals of ducal titles on male members of the Royal House born after 1975, and even his expansion of duchies to female members of the Royal House since 1980, are not seriously questioned by anybody. While this is speculation, I think that establishes a useful precedent in the event that, sometime in the future, Queen Victoria would like to confer a courtesy comital title on her grandchildren (by Oscar) or the grandchildren of her siblings.
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  #225  
Old 10-15-2019, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It is interesting that despite §45 obviously being deleted from the new Instrument of Government of 1975, the King's conferrals of ducal titles on male members of the Royal House born after 1975, and even his expansion of duchies to female members of the Royal House since 1980, are not seriously questioned by anybody. While this is speculation, I think that establishes a useful precedent in the event that, sometime in the future, Queen Victoria would like to confer a courtesy comital title on her grandchildren (by Oscar) or the grandchildren of her siblings.
Yes, that is a valid point.
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  #226  
Old 10-17-2019, 10:13 AM
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Princess Birgitta: "I back my brother with 100 percent!"
There are major changes going on in the royal house - but now it is clear that the king is supported by his sister.
Princess Birgitta is the only one of the four Haga Princess to be titled Her Royal Highness.
She is also the only one of those belonging to The Royal House.
The king's sister has been following the events closely, it is clear when we reach her by phone in the home of Santa Ponsa in Mallorca.
With a little perspective - what does the princess say about the king's decision last week?
- Yes, I'm behind my brother with 100 percent. We all do! But otherwise, this is a decision that does not concern me.
But isn't there much pressure on the Crown Princess?
- Yes, but she agrees with that. She was born to this and has never experienced anything else. And she has very good help and good advisers around her. And she really does this with pleasure. Victoria will be a great asset for Sweden.
Prinsessan Birgitta_ _Jag står bakom min bror till 100 procent!_ _ Svensk Dam

The article in Svensk Damtidning's latest issue about the King's decision
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Carl Philip and Sofia told in their interview in Dagens Nyheter, which Svensk Damtidning quotes, about their role in the future:
Because although you rarely see Princess Madeleine in Sweden nowadays considering that she lives on the other side of the Atlantic, Carl Philip and Sofia have been most present in many official contexts in recent years. When the decision became official, it felt a little uncertain what the future would look like, and the Marshal of the Realm told that the siblings to the crown princess get a little less central roles "as time goes on".
But in an interview with Dagens Nyheter, Carl Philip and Sofia say that they know what is expected of them.
- Directly, our roles may not change very much. But in the long term, as the focus will on the Head of State and the future Head of State with family, it will be a little freer for us as well. Or how, says Sofia in the interview and turns to Carl Philip who continues.
- So it will maybe be long term. But we still have commitments that we will carry out. Planning is not just for the next few weeks and months, but sometimes quite far ahead, when there is something we have agreed to attend. They are not cancelled, he says.
The Prince couple goes on to say that their commitment to the Swedish monarchy remains and that they are always close at hand if support is needed for the Crown Princess Couple and the Royal Couple. And that certain ceremonial tasks are obvious for the prince couple to continue to be involved in, such as the Opening of the Riksdag and the Nobel.
- State visits and ceremonial duties, such as the Opening of the Riksdag and the Nobel. Those things have been obvious. It has been very clear that the wish is for us to join, says Prince Carl Philip.
These missions will continue.
- If it is wished, yes. We have also had several different official assignments throughout Sweden and also abroad. If it is desired that we continue in this way, then of course we will. So the question of what is going to happen is true and important. But it is difficult to specify. The requirement specification depends on when you ask, says Prince Carl Philip.
Kungens order till Sofia och Carl Philip_ _Det har varit väldigt tydligt_ _ Svensk Dam
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  #227  
Old 10-20-2019, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
The article in Svensk Damtidning's latest issue about the King's decision
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Carl Philip and Sofia told in their interview in Dagens Nyheter, which Svensk Damtidning quotes, about their role in the future:
Because although you rarely see Princess Madeleine in Sweden nowadays considering that she lives on the other side of the Atlantic, Carl Philip and Sofia have been most present in many official contexts in recent years. When the decision became official, it felt a little uncertain what the future would look like, and the Marshal of the Realm told that the siblings to the crown princess get a little less central roles "as time goes on".
But in an interview with Dagens Nyheter, Carl Philip and Sofia say that they know what is expected of them.
- Directly, our roles may not change very much. But in the long term, as the focus will on the Head of State and the future Head of State with family, it will be a little freer for us as well. Or how, says Sofia in the interview and turns to Carl Philip who continues.
- So it will maybe be long term. But we still have commitments that we will carry out. Planning is not just for the next few weeks and months, but sometimes quite far ahead, when there is something we have agreed to attend. They are not cancelled, he says.
The Prince couple goes on to say that their commitment to the Swedish monarchy remains and that they are always close at hand if support is needed for the Crown Princess Couple and the Royal Couple. And that certain ceremonial tasks are obvious for the prince couple to continue to be involved in, such as the Opening of the Riksdag and the Nobel.
- State visits and ceremonial duties, such as the Opening of the Riksdag and the Nobel. Those things have been obvious. It has been very clear that the wish is for us to join, says Prince Carl Philip.
These missions will continue.
- If it is wished, yes. We have also had several different official assignments throughout Sweden and also abroad. If it is desired that we continue in this way, then of course we will. So the question of what is going to happen is true and important. But it is difficult to specify. The requirement specification depends on when you ask, says Prince Carl Philip.
Kungens order till Sofia och Carl Philip_ _Det har varit väldigt tydligt_ _ Svensk Dam

There is no need for CP and Sofia's role to change just because their children are no longer HRHs.



Sweden is a small country (in population terms) with only 10 million people. The demands on the Royal Family are not comparable then to those in the UK, which has a population of 67 million and a monarchy with a global reach because of the Commonwealth. Still, in 10 years or so, even if the present King does not abdicate, he and the queen consort will probably start to slow down and it will be nice if Victoria and Daniel can count on CP and Sofia to support them by taking up more royal engagements. Estelle and Oscar probably won't be working royals until they are in their mid-20s or even older (when Victoria is likely to have already become queen), so I think CP and Sofia will be needed for a long time.
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  #228  
Old 11-20-2019, 11:03 AM
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Queen Silvia gave an interview to Göteborgs-Posten and spoke also about the king's decision.
Svensk Damtidning tells that queen Silvia said at the interview.
- It's not such a dramatic change. More a way of clarifying the special status of the Crown Princess family. Everyone in the royal family feels a great deal of responsibility and will continue to set up when needed, she says.
Silvia försvarar kungen i ny intervju _ Svensk Dam


Princess Birgitta spoke about the king's decision at her interview she gave to Svensk Damtidning last weekend in Gothenburg.

Once upon a time, the Haga princesses were in the same seat as Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine is now. Or as Princess Birgitta puts it: "A little on a side track".
Five of the king's seven grandchildren are no longer Royal Highnesses. And the Royal House - which until last autumn was as big as a football team - is now half shrunk.
The result: A modernized monarchy. Or as Queen Silvia described it all in an interview in the Göteborgs-Posten the other day: A way to clarify the special status of the Crown Princess family.
A fact that Princess Birgitta applauds. When we meet for an interview, she is very clear that she stands behind the king to 100 percent:
- It was a good decision. It went a bit too fast, I think, when my brother gave titles to all the grandchildren. But he wanted it to be the same for everyone, of course, and I understand that. But now he has fixed it and it is good. Now everyone knows what this is about.
Can you say that Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip are a bit in the same seat that you sisters were? After all, it was your brother who would become king and you yourself had to find another role, and another way to go about life?
- Yes, it is. You have no meaning, you are a bit like that on abstellgleis, says Princess Birgitta and smiles, before she translates:
- Yes, on a side track!
- But joking aside, that's just how the conditions are in a royal family, and that's simply something you have to accept. Everyone can not be the firstborn.
Prinsessan Birgitta om kungens beslut _ Svensk Dam
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  #229  
Old 11-29-2019, 12:40 PM
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- But joking aside, that's just how the conditions are in a royal family, and that's simply something you have to accept. Everyone can not be the firstborn.
Prinsessan Birgitta om kungens beslut _ Svensk Dam



It is funny that Princess Birgitta said that considering that Princess Margaretha is actually the firstborn in her family. Carl Gustaf is the King, rather than his sister being Queen, because of gender inequality that was enshrined in law until 1980, and not because of primogeniture.



I don't think the Haga princesses are in the same situation as CP and Madeleine either as CP and Madeleine (and their respective children) are in the line of succession to the throne, whereas the Haga princesses are not and have never been eligible to inherit the Crown.
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  #230  
Old 11-29-2019, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
There is no need for CP and Sofia's role to change just because their children are no longer HRHs.



Sweden is a small country (in population terms) with only 10 million people. The demands on the Royal Family are not comparable then to those in the UK, which has a population of 67 million and a monarchy with a global reach because of the Commonwealth. Still, in 10 years or so, even if the present King does not abdicate, he and the queen consort will probably start to slow down and it will be nice if Victoria and Daniel can count on CP and Sofia to support them by taking up more royal engagements. Estelle and Oscar probably won't be working royals until they are in their mid-20s or even older (when Victoria is likely to have already become queen), so I think CP and Sofia will be needed for a long time.
Given the treatment Prince Carl Philip, his girlfriend and later wife, and their sons received from the King and court in earlier years, there is no doubt in my mind that it was the King's intention for Carl Philip and Sofia to play a central and leading role in the monarchy. Clearly, something has changed, and I think it occurred under the same circumstances that encouraged the King to change the traditions of the Royal House – namely, the looming parliamentary inquiry. The greater the number of full-time working royals, the greater the cost in the public's perception, and the more danger that the court of public opinion will (if not this time, then at the next parliamentary inquiry) demand the current Spanish system of limiting public duties to direct heirs and their spouses.

I'm not sure if the Crown Princess Couple will be in need of additional support as the King and Queen slow down; indeed their children won't begin performing public duties for another couple of decades, but they will demand less of their parents' time as they grow older.




Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
A fact that Princess Birgitta applauds. When we meet for an interview, she is very clear that she stands behind the king to 100 percent:
- It was a good decision. It went a bit too fast, I think, when my brother gave titles to all the grandchildren. But he wanted it to be the same for everyone, of course, and I understand that. But now he has fixed it and it is good. Now everyone knows what this is about.
Her comment lends credence to the rumors that the Haga princesses thought their brother too generous with royal titles.

I don't agree with the princess that the titles have been "fixed"; to the average Swede, Alexander for example was known simply as "Prince Alexander" even when he was a member of the Royal House; the removed titles of HRH and "of Sweden" were rarely used.


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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
It is funny that Princess Birgitta said that considering that Princess Margaretha is actually the firstborn in her family. Carl Gustaf is the King, rather than his sister being Queen, because of gender inequality that was enshrined in law until 1980, and not because of primogeniture.



I don't think the Haga princesses are in the same situation as CP and Madeleine either as CP and Madeleine (and their respective children) are in the line of succession to the throne, whereas the Haga princesses are not and have never been eligible to inherit the Crown.
Good points! At the same time, the Haga princesses were fully members of the Royal House until they (Birgitta excepted) concluded unequal marriages; in addition, I imagine they grew up knowing that if something happened to their brother, or if he and his wife were unable to have children, there was a credible chance that the law would be changed to allow one of them to succeed to the throne.
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  #231  
Old 11-29-2019, 05:30 PM
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At least the change in titles did not affect the the Swedish line of succession for the moment.
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  #232  
Old 02-05-2020, 04:19 PM
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My pleasure.
A small correction is in place here. Prince Carl did not get to share his birth title with his three wives. Like all his cousins he lost his rank and titles upon marrying Countess von Rosen. Instead he received the Belgian title of Prince Bernadotte from his brother-in-law King Leopold together with the title of Count Bernadotte for his agnatic descendants. That title will go extinct with the passing of his daughter Madeleine Kogevinas.

I've been following the discussion regarding the titles of the sons of Prince Carl Philip during the last few days. Some of you might remember me writing many times that I couldn't see the King leaving his agnatic descendants without any titles. We now know that I was wrong and that in a few decades time we'll have grandchildren of a former Crown Prince without any title at all. The King has many times stated his pride in his ancestry and his family name and this was even one of his main arguments against the introduction of absolute primogeniture. Therefore for him to in practicality declare the male line of the house extinct by decree in maybe 50 years is surprising, noteworthy and IMO a bit sad. I'm positive that if he could have he would have created them Princes or Counts Bernadotte but it seems that at least here I was right in my assumption that he can't do so.
For those posters lashing out at other posters for suggesting that the loss of the agnatic House of Bernadotte is a shame I might suggest that they remember that many of us are members of this forum because of our interest in both the history and the constitutional aspects of nobility and monarchy where agnatic descent have always been at the core of the system. Saying that you see a historical and symbolic loss in the removal of titles doesn't mean that you wish it was still 1856. As I've seen it the opinion voiced isn't about who should inherit the throne but instead about the traditions of an extraordinary family who rose by the merit of one of its members from humble beginnings to the thrones of a double monarchy in only a few decades.
I love Victoria and I know that she'll make us Swedes a fantastic queen when that time comes but I still feel that it was unjust to retroactively remove her brother from the position to which he was born.
Bravo!! Just catching up and saw this post. I totally agree with everything that is being said here. I love history--I majored in it and am the daughter of a British Historian and the wife of a history professor. I am an American. We don't have a monarchy. So of course I am somewhat fascinated by them. The traditions and such are fun to observe. I am particularly fascinated by royal jewelry and how long ago a crown or necklace would move from royal family to royal family as a result of marriage. So fun reading about the history of those pieces. It is strange to see the titles being removed and more modern changes taking effect in monarchies today. These changes also allow for more freedom for some of its members. But I do love some of the old ways also so this post was just spot on for me. Great job!!!
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  #233  
Old 02-06-2020, 05:34 AM
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I would like to point out that the easing of one or two forms of discrimination against women will not cancel the centuries of past history or the traditions of wearing historic royal jewelry, etc. Weightier changes to tradition, such as commoners being allowed to marry into the Royal House, were implemented while the system was still wholly agnatic.

The "modernization" of removing membership and titles of the Royal House from junior branches would likely have been implemented in due course even in an agnatic system. It would admittedly not have been needed in this generation, with Carl Philip being the Crown Prince and his two children being the only royals of their generation. But if Alexander and Gabriel both went on to have sons, there would surely be questions from taxpayers about the need for the agnatic grandchildren of Gabriel to be members of the Royal House. In Britain and Luxembourg, royal titles are in most cases based on agnatic descent, but there have nonetheless been policies to avoid the inflation of royal titles.
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  #234  
Old 02-06-2020, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
Svensk Damtidning's Helena Wiklund interviewed Victoria in Iceland about the change in the Royal House.

What does the Crown Princess think about the great change in the royal house? Does the Crown Princess feel at ease for the future?
– Yes, I do. But I think we should find another opportunity to talk about this. Take another grasp of it simply.
Meanwhile, many people wonder how the Crown Princess thinks about this.
- Yes it is so.
And several who feel that the press and responsibility that has been put on the Crown princess is getting very large?
Victoria ponders a few seconds before she responds.
- But it belongs well to the whole. It is not so strange really.
So the Crown Princess feels confident for the future?
- Well, I do. And I am confident also with what I have around me.
Exklusivt! Victorias första ord – svarar efter kungens beslut _ Svensk Dam

The King has now highlighted that Crown Princess Victoria and her children have a special position.
Madeleine welcomes the decision - outwards.
But previously, she has wanted her children to belong to the royal house as well, says Expressen.
The king is the one who has taken the initiative in this matter, but all three children have been keen to express their views. The court admits that it is a process that has taken a long time.
- This is a discussion that has been around for a long time in the family, and the whole royal family has been involved. Everyone is involved, says Margareta Thorgren.
When asked about how close the family members have been, Margareta Thorgren replies that it is a dialogue that has been held within the family.
- It is a process that has been going on for a long time and where everyone in the family agrees.
But earlier, when Princess Madeleine's daughter Leonore was born in 2014, Madeleine expressed a desire for her children to belong to the royal house. According to information to Expressen, the king agreed with his daughter, despite the fact that there were divided sentences in the matter within the court.
However, Karin Lennmor, royal expert and chronicler at Expressen, does not perceive Madeleine's wish at that time that she wanted at all costs for her daughter to become part of the royal house.
- Madeleine really wanted her firstborn daughter to get a princess title, and with that she got it she became part of the royal house. When Madeleine and Chris O'Neill got married, Chris did not want to receive the prince's title. He wanted to be able to work as usual. That's why I think Madeleine was worried when Leonore was born. She didn't really know what her baby would be like. Then she pressed her parents and said: I want my daughter to become a princess, Karin Lennmor says.
The King's decision on Monday could also have financial consequences for his younger children. The focus on Victoria is expected to mean that Princess Madeleine and Prince couple Carl Philip and Sofia will receive fewer official assignments in the future.
Prinsessan Madeleine om relationen till Victoria

The game behind the king's decision on the grandchildren
Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip's children will no longer belong to the royal house.
King Carl Gustaf's decision came as a surprise, but the signals that a change was underway have been around for a long time.
The decision will also affect Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip. As they receive fewer official assignments, their apanage will also decrease.
- When the royal children were born, the royal family was not so big. Now we have a situation with ten people in the line to throne, when the king has reached this great restriction, The Marshal of the Realm Fredrik Wersäll previously told Expressen.
According to him, this is a decision that has been discussed within the royal family for several years.
- The decision by the king explicitly states that this means greater freedom for the children to shape their own future. They will continue to be part of the succession. There is also an obligation to work to maintain the trust of the monarchy.
Both Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia have commented that they are positive about the change.
"Chris and I think it is good that our children now have a greater opportunity to shape their own lives as individuals in the future", Madeleine writes on Instagram.
- I absolutely think she welcomes this decision. After all, she has talked about it and it has also become clear that she has been bothered by all the attention and demands that she should return to Sweden and represent in different contexts. Although she will still be a royal highness and princess, both she and Carl Philip will be much calmer now, says chronicler Karin Lennmor.
Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia also commented on the decision on their joint Instagram account:
“We see this as a positive as Alexander and Gabriel will have freer choices in life. They will retain their prince titles and their duchies, Södermanland and Dalarna, which we value and are proud of. Our family has strong connections to both landscapes and we maintain our commitment there ”.
- I think Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine are happy about this decision, not have to be so careful and to have this press on them anymore, says Lennmor.
The clues have been there for a long time
Although the king's decision came as a surprise to many, there have been signals that a change has been going on for a long time.
- There are two very clear signs, says Karin Lennmor.
In September, Princess Madeleine, who is up to date with her children's book debut "Stella and the secret", was present at the Book Fair in Gothenburg and then bypassed the question of where the children would go to school.
- It was always an indication that something was going on. This with school, I think is something that worried Madeleine. The old rule has been that when you belong to the royal house, the children should have a Swedish schooling with Swedish as their mother tongue and it is not possible to arrange in Florida what I know. Now it will be completely different. She is completely free to choose where she wants to put her children in school. This message, I think, meant that a large stone fell from her shoulders, Karin Lennmor says.
Karin Lennmor also remembers what it was like when Princess Madeleine first met Chris and that he made a clear marker when he declined a prince title.
- He wanted to be free and not have that burden around his neck. Madeleine, on the other hand, was very anxious that Leonore, her first child, should receive a princess title. So already then she highlighted that even though my husband doesn't want to be a prince, we don't want to be excluded from the royal family, and they are not either, says Karin Lennmor.
A clear signal - the summer picture from Solliden
All the years, the royal family has been photographed in front of Solliden's castle on Öland. Last year, only one image was published of the royal couple, the crown princess couple and Princess Estelle and Prince Oscar.
- It can definitely be seen as a signal. I reacted myself when I saw the picture. On the other hand, we must not forget that the whole royal family has become so good themselves on social media by posting pictures, says Karin Lennmor.
Among other things, she takes up the photo that Princess Madeleine posted on herself and her family from Solliden. Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia also posted a summer picture of themselves and the sons.
- But there is still something in this, that one may have paved the way for this decision in that picture.
That there was no official 40-year celebration for Carl-Philip in May this year, however, is nothing Karin Lennmor sees as a clue to the king's decision.
- Only the heirs to the throne, in this case Crown Princess Victoria, have official birthday celebrations, so it's not strange at all.
Recently, the court's website has also seen an increasing focus on the royal couple and the crown princess couple.
- It is something I have been thinking about, but there I have concluded that the royal family has become so much more involved with the media. The court has also received a new good digital editor. However, both Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine have been good at this by posting their own pictures.
Karin Lennmor believes that when Prince Carl Philip and Princess Madeleine can count on a smaller apanage, it will not be a problem, as both have their own careers. Princess Madeleine has started her career as a children's book writer and Prince Carl Philip has his design company.
- So they will not be poor and their children will do well in the future as well. I am convinced of that, she says.
Expressen has sought Margareta Thorgren for a comment.
Spelet bakom kungens beslut om barnbarnen
Thank you for this informative post !

I was quite surprised to hear that Madeleine was anxious for Leonore to be a princess and that it was she who pushed for her children to be members of the Royal House when they were born. Previously, most people here assumed, I guess, that the decision to make Leonore an HRH had come from the King because Victoria at the time had only one daughter. But , in hindsight, now that it has become clear that HRH status and succession rights are not linked, I guess that interpretation didn’t really make sense.

Anyway, I think that article gives interesting clues about Madeleine and she feels about leaving royal life behind.
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  #235  
Old 02-06-2020, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Thank you for this informative post !

I was quite surprised to hear that Madeleine was anxious for Leonore to be a princess and that it was she who pushed for her children to be members of the Royal House when they were born. Previously, most people here assumed, I guess, that the decision to make Leonore an HRH had come from the King because Victoria at the time had only one daughter. But , in hindsight, now that it has become clear that HRH status and succession rights are not linked, I guess that interpretation didn’t really make sense.

Anyway, I think that article gives interesting clues about Madeleine and she feels about leaving royal life behind.
It’s a big assumption to say that Expressen, which is on par with The Daily Mail, has inside knowledge of what discussions happened around Leonore’s birth.
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  #236  
Old 02-09-2020, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
That is actually unclear. Prior to 1979, the default was that all male line descendants of Jean-Baptiste Bernadotte were princes or princesses of Sweden, but those who married morganatically (and their respective descendants) lost their titles.



After 1980, at first it looked like the new default would be that all descendants of Carl XVI Gustaf (either in male or female line) would be princes or princesses of Sweden, which of course would be unmanageable in the long run. Following the August 2019 announcement, the rule now seems to be simply that princes and princesses of Sweden are whoever the King decides they are, which I also find problematic.
It looks clear that the introduction of female succession in 1980 did not produce any new rules on titles.

Contrast the changes to the constitution's Act of Succession in 1980 with the changes in the language used in the Dutch and Belgian constitutions respectively in 1963 and 1991. In connection with changes to the succession rights of women, the Dutch constitution replaced "Prince or Princess of the reigning dynasty" with "man or woman", and the Belgian constitution replaced "prince" with "descendant", implying that female-line grandchildren in the order of succession were not certain to be princes and princesses.

Sweden, on the other hand, merely replaced "prince of the royal house" with "prince and princess of the royal house" in 1980, e.g.

Prins av det kungl. huset må ej gifta sig, med mindre Konungen, sedan statsrådets tankar inhämtats, därtill lämnat samtycke. Sker det ändock, have han förverkat arvsrätt till riket för sig, barn och efterkommande. Lag samma vare, om han med eller utan sådant samtycke, tager till gemål enskild svensk mans dotter.

Prins och prinsessa av det kungl. huset må ej gifta sig, med mindre regeringen på hemställan av Konungen därtill lämnat samtycke. Sker det ändock, have han eller hon förverkat arvsrätt till riket för sig, barn och efterkommande.

implying that grandchildren in either female or male line, when in the line of succession, would be princes and princesses and members of the royal house.



The announcement in October 2019 seems to communicate that from here on, the princes and princesses of Sweden will be those who carry out, or are expected to carry out, official representation and benefit from public funding.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...e304a869f.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Thank you for this informative post !

I was quite surprised to hear that Madeleine was anxious for Leonore to be a princess and that it was she who pushed for her children to be members of the Royal House when they were born. Previously, most people here assumed, I guess, that the decision to make Leonore an HRH had come from the King because Victoria at the time had only one daughter. But , in hindsight, now that it has become clear that HRH status and succession rights are not linked, I guess that interpretation didn’t really make sense.

Anyway, I think that article gives interesting clues about Madeleine and she feels about leaving royal life behind.
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Originally Posted by katiebird View Post
It’s a big assumption to say that Expressen, which is on par with The Daily Mail, has inside knowledge of what discussions happened around Leonore’s birth.
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
In general everything written by Karin Lenmor should be taken with a massive pinch of salt. She writes opinion pieces for Expressen where facts, unnamed sources and her own thoughts intermingle to form one big mess. Expressen in general is a serious newspaper that unfortunately mixes serious journalism with gossip about celebrities and royals so again take their royal articles with a pinch of salt. Sometimes they're right and sometimes they're very wrong. In this case I'll bet my socks on them having made things up from thin air.

The impressions I've received of Expressen in general and the less-serious reporting of Karin Lennmor in particular are along the same lines as what was written by JR76. It is impossible to definitively state that Ms. Lennmor's anonymous source is truthful or untruthful, but even if one believes their claim that someone had to "press" the king to apply the default rule, the anonymous person's claim that it was Princess Madeleine rather than Prince Carl Philip looks inconsistent with the confirmed facts. Princess Madeleine's wedding was low-key in comparison to her brother's, she has given a minimal number of interviews in comparison to her brother, and her statement reacting to the removal of her children from the Royal House highlighted their status as private citizens while her brother's statement highlighted that he and his wife "value and are proud of" their children's princely and ducal titles.
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  #237  
Old 02-09-2020, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
It looks clear that the introduction of female succession in 1980 did not produce any new rules on titles.

Contrast the changes to the constitution's Act of Succession in 1980 with the changes in the language used in the Dutch and Belgian constitutions respectively in 1963 and 1991. In connection with changes to the succession rights of women, the Dutch constitution replaced "Prince or Princess of the reigning dynasty" with "man or woman", and the Belgian constitution replaced "prince" with "descendant", implying that female-line grandchildren in the order of succession were not certain to be princes and princesses.

Sweden, on the other hand, merely replaced "prince of the royal house" with "prince and princess of the royal house" in 1980, e.g.

Prins av det kungl. huset må ej gifta sig, med mindre Konungen, sedan statsrådets tankar inhämtats, därtill lämnat samtycke. Sker det ändock, have han förverkat arvsrätt till riket för sig, barn och efterkommande. Lag samma vare, om han med eller utan sådant samtycke, tager till gemål enskild svensk mans dotter.

Prins och prinsessa av det kungl. huset må ej gifta sig, med mindre regeringen på hemställan av Konungen därtill lämnat samtycke. Sker det ändock, have han eller hon förverkat arvsrätt till riket för sig, barn och efterkommande.

implying that grandchildren in either female or male line, when in the line of succession, would be princes and princesses and members of the royal house.



The announcement in October 2019 seems to communicate that from here on, the princes and princesses of Sweden will be those who carry out, or are expected to carry out, official representation and benefit from public funding.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...e304a869f.html









The impressions I've received of Expressen in general and the less-serious reporting of Karin Lennmor in particular are along the same lines as what was written by JR76. It is impossible to definitively state that Ms. Lennmor's anonymous source is truthful or untruthful, but even if one believes their claim that someone had to "press" the king to apply the default rule, the anonymous person's claim that it was Princess Madeleine rather than Prince Carl Philip looks inconsistent with the confirmed facts. Princess Madeleine's wedding was low-key in comparison to her brother's, she has given a minimal number of interviews in comparison to her brother, and her statement reacting to the removal of her children from the Royal House highlighted their status as private citizens while her brother's statement highlighted that he and his wife "value and are proud of" their children's princely and ducal titles.
Man and woman are not used in the Dutch Constitution. It uses gender-neutral language as "successors" or "children" or "issue".
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  #238  
Old 02-09-2020, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Man and woman are not used in the Dutch Constitution. It uses gender-neutral language as "successors" or "children" or "issue".
"Man or woman" was used in Article 17 of the Dutch Constitution as it was written from 1963 until 1983:

Van de erfopvolging, zowel voor zich zelf als voor hun nakomelingen, zijn uitgesloten alle kinderen, geboren uit een huwelijk aangegaan door een Koning buiten gemeen overleg met de Staten-Generaal, of door een man of vrouw, die de Kroon van de regerende Koning kan beërven, buiten bij de wet verleende toestemming.

The change which I meant to concentrate on, however, was that when the male line took priority in the order of succession (before 1963), the Dutch Constitution used "Prince or Princess" rather than "man or woman" when referencing successors from the reigning dynasty. That change did not happen in Sweden.
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  #239  
Old 02-09-2020, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
"Man or woman" was used in Article 17 of the Dutch Constitution as it was written from 1963 until 1983:

Van de erfopvolging, zowel voor zich zelf als voor hun nakomelingen, zijn uitgesloten alle kinderen, geboren uit een huwelijk aangegaan door een Koning buiten gemeen overleg met de Staten-Generaal, of door een man of vrouw, die de Kroon van de regerende Koning kan beërven, buiten bij de wet verleende toestemming.

The change which I meant to concentrate on, however, was that when the male line took priority in the order of succession (before 1963), the Dutch Constitution used "Prince or Princess" rather than "man or woman" when referencing successors from the reigning dynasty. That change did not happen in Sweden.
Thanks for the correction. I was looking in the current Constitution but I see you referred to an older situation.
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  #240  
Old 02-09-2020, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post


The announcement in October 2019 seems to communicate that from here on, the princes and princesses of Sweden will be those who carry out, or are expected to carry out, official representation and benefit from public funding.

https://www.kungahuset.se/kungafamil...e304a869f.html









The impressions I've received of Expressen in general and the less-serious reporting of Karin Lennmor in particular are along the same lines as what was written by JR76. It is impossible to definitively state that Ms. Lennmor's anonymous source is truthful or untruthful, but even if one believes their claim that someone had to "press" the king to apply the default rule, the anonymous person's claim that it was Princess Madeleine rather than Prince Carl Philip looks inconsistent with the confirmed facts. Princess Madeleine's wedding was low-key in comparison to her brother's, she has given a minimal number of interviews in comparison to her brother, and her statement reacting to the removal of her children from the Royal House highlighted their status as private citizens while her brother's statement highlighted that he and his wife "value and are proud of" their children's princely and ducal titles.



If anyone pressed for titles, I guess that, chronologically, it must have been Princess Madeleine for the simple reason that Leonore was born before Carl Philip's sons. It would have been odd for CP to opine about her sister's children's titles and much less to raise that issue with his parents.
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