Titles of the Swedish RF and Changes 2019

[0325.Mikael.0929]

And about someone saying that the agnatic line of Bernadottes will no longer be Princes of Sweden, would it be possible that the children of Prince Alexander be introduced into the Luxembourgish/Belgian nobility like how they did with the brothers of Gustaf VI Adolf?

 

[KellyAtLast]

And about someone saying that the agnatic line of Bernadottes will no longer be Princes of Sweden, would it be possible that the children of Prince Alexander be introduced into the Luxembourgish/Belgian nobility like how they did with the brothers of Gustaf VI Adolf?

If you go back a few pages they talk about this topic. And I agree with them why should Carl Philip and his kids get extra special treatment just because they were born with male body parts. Bad enough the king gave sodermanland to Alex when logically he should have given it to Oscar. Why should Carl Philip and his sons get a special title made for them in a foreign country when all they’ve done is exist on this planet as a man.

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

If you go back a few pages they talk about this topic. And I agree with them why should Carl Philip and his kids get extra special treatment just because they were born with male body parts. Why should Carl Philip and his sons get a special title made for them in a foreign country when all they’ve done is exist on this planet as a man.

True, when considering Sweden is a country of gender equality. The Bernadotte Dynasty has evolved. I wrote the post with consideration that Alexander's children are a cadet branch of their own.

If we consider Denmark, the current agnatic head of the previous house would be Count Christian of Rosenborg (died 2013), the son of Prince Knud of Denmark, who is the brother of Frederik IX. Either Alexander gets a Luxembourgish title and the other 4 grandchildren also get equivalent titles, or they'll just be Bernadottes. Or they can choose not to marry as it was done with Princess Eugenie and her nephew Prince Eugen.

Bad enough the king gave sodermanland to Alex when logically he should have given it to Oscar.

However, in the Bernadotte period "Södermanland" and "Skåne" are slightly equal in status apart from Södermanland being of top priority to rent Stenhammar from the State.

Monarch/Xth/Yth/Zth = the Monarch's Xth son/child's Yth son/child's Zth son/child.
(Son before 1977, Child after 1977)

=SÖDERMANLAND=
Oscar I (Carl XIV Johan/1st)
Carl Oscar (Oscar I/1st/1st)
Wilhelm (Oscar II/1st/2nd)
Alexander (Carl XVI Gustaf/2nd/1st)

=SKÅNE*=
Carl XV (Carl XIV Johan/1st/1st)
Gustaf VI Adolf (Oscar II/1st/1st)
Oscar (Carl XVI Gustaf/1st/2nd)

By the time of Oscar II he favored Skåne over Södermanland. It's more or less the same now, though I must admit that Södermanland has much more history than Skåne in terms of dukedoms granted.

 

[Mbruno]

Hmm, that's an interesting point. So, while Estelle would loose her place in the line of succession is she would marry Christian of Denmark (unless she would receive permission to do so), Leonore could theoretically do so without any consequences (according to the SRF's interpretation) to her rights to the Swedish throne.

It is not that much different from the current situation in the UK for example, where the monarch's consent is not needed for marriages of anyone who is 7th or lower in the line of succession.


CP's sons are likely to be still among the first six people in line to the throne by the time they are engaged to marry, but Leonore probably won't be. In any case, none of them is likely to succeed, so an argument can be made that whoever they marry is inconsequential as a matter of state interest.

Even if consent were needed, I don't see the King (or Victoria if she is already Queen by then) or the Swedish government refusing to consent to a marriage between Leonore and Christian of Denmark, or George of Cambridge, or any other prince in direct line to a foreign throne.

Christiian BTW is too old for Leonore, but George would be a good match!

If you go back a few pages they talk about this topic. And I agree with them why should Carl Philip and his kids get extra special treatment just because they were born with male body parts. Bad enough the king gave sodermanland to Alex when logically he should have given it to Oscar. Why should Carl Philip and his sons get a special title made for them in a foreign country when all they’ve done is exist on this planet as a man.

The agnatic line of the Belgian Coburgs won't be "Princes of Belgium" either in two generations at most as neither Prince Laurent's grandchildren nor Prince Gabriel's and Prince Emmanuel's grandchildren will have that title.



I actually sympathize with posters who feel it is unfair that the senior agnatic line descended from King Karl XIV Johan will be "titleless" (essentially commoners). In the UK, the Windsor agnatic lines have been at least given peerages that they can pass on to their male descendants, but, in Sweden, the King has no options really as he can no longer create hereditary nobility.

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

It is not that much different from the current situation in the UK for example, where the monarch's consent is not needed for marriages of anyone who is 7th or lower in the line of succession.

As of 2020, that means anyone who are not descendants of Charles, Prince of Wales, can marry without royal consent.

CP's sons are likely to be still among the first six people in line to the throne by the time they are engaged to marry, but Leonore probably won't be. In any case, none of them is likely to succeed, so an argument can be made that whoever they marry is inconsequential as a matter of state interest.

For your reference:

Top 3: Victoria and her two children
4th-6th: Carl Philip and his two sons
7th-10th: Madeleine and her three children

I'm sure that Estelle and Oscar are more wary of their seniority just like in the 19th and 20th centuries where heirs and high presumptives had children while those lower in line often chose not to have children, not to marry or to forfeit their titles.
(e.g. Princes August of Dalarna (childless), Eugen of Närke (unmarried), Oscar of Gotland, Carl of Östergötland, Sigvard of Uppland, Lennart of Småland, Carl Johan of Dalarna (all of them lost Swedish titles))

Even if consent were needed, I don't see the King (or Victoria if she is already Queen by then) or the Swedish government refusing to consent to a marriage between Leonore and Christian of Denmark, or George of Cambridge, or any other prince in direct line to a throne.

True.

The agnatic line of the Belgian Coburgs won't be "Princes of Belgium" either in two generations at most as neither Prince Laurent's grandchildren nor Prince Gabriel's and Prince Emmanuel's grandchildren will have that title.

I actually sympathize with posters who feel it is unfair that the senior agnatic line descended from King Karl XIV Johan will be "titleless" (essentially commoners). In the UK, the Windsor agnatic lines have been at least given peerages that they can pass on to their male descendants, but, in Sweden, the King has no options really as he can no longer create hereditary nobility.

I would agree that Luxembourg/Belgium grant titles to Alexander's children, but for fairness, the other 4 grandchildren's children should also be granted equal titles. For example, if Alexander's children is granted the Belgian title of Prince Bernadotte the other four's children should also have equal titles for fairness. This will be a compromise.

 

[KellyAtLast]

Why would Belgium and Luxembourg grant more titles to foreign royals when society now wants less titles. And I don’t think it’s fair to grant more titles to Swedish royals when for example the 3 young children of the current king of Belgium only have their title of prince/princess. That type of thing makes no sense anymore. Like what’s the point.

 

[Mbruno]

Why would Belgium and Luxembourg grant more titles to foreign royals when society now wants less titles. And I don’t think it’s fair to grant more titles to Swedish royals when for example the 3 young children of the current king of Belgium only have their title of prince/princess. That type of thing makes no sense anymore. Like what’s the point.

I suppose the point of giving hereditary titles of nobility to collateral lines of a Royal Family (as it is done in the UK, and recently in the Netherlands and Denmark, but only for the paternal lines) is to distinguish future descendants of those lines as being of royal descent (or of "royal blood" if you will).



Whether that is fair or not, I don't know (some people would probably argue that any form of nobility is "unfair"). In any case, some monarchies like Belgium or Spain don't do it anymore even though, ironically, Belgium and Spain have been the only European monarchies recently where new titlles of nobility are routinely created for "commoners" (including, in the case of Spain in JC's reign, several new hereditary titles).

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I agree with KellyAtLast in post #274, but my prediction that if either Prince Alexander or Prince Gabriel marries and has a legitimate son by his wife, then that son will in one way or another come to be known as Count [name] Bernadotte, even if he is a titleless commoner in the eyes of the law. This is the title and name by which the public and the Bernadotte family know all other non-royal legitimate agnates of kings of Sweden, they are accustomed to this situation, and it will seem inconsistent to them if an agnate of King Oscar II is known as a count and an agnate of King Carl XVI Gustaf is not.

I suppose the point of giving hereditary titles of nobility to collateral lines of a Royal Family (as it is done in the UK, and recently in the Netherlands and Denmark, but only for the paternal lines) is to distinguish future descendants of those lines as being of royal descent (or of "royal blood" if you will).

Whether that is fair or not, I don't know. Some monarchies like Belgium or Spain don't do it anymore even though, ironically, Belgium and Spain have been the only European monarchies recently where new titlles of nobility are routinely created for "commoners" (including, in the case of Spain in JC's reign, several new hereditary titles).

In Belgium there is no need to grant hereditary titles of nobility to prevent paternal lines from being titleless as all legitimate agnatic lines of King Leopold I will remain Princes even when they are no longer Princes of Belgium.

If you are referring to personal titles such as Count of Flanders and Count of Hainaut, I suspect they would still be granted, even if hardly used, if Belgium hadn't become increasingly federalized.

It's also clear that the king treated his son's children differently in terms of dukedoms than his younger daughter's children. While especially Carl Philip's eldest child (the rightful heir in CG's eyes?!) got ducal titles with a lot of history (and a palace attached to it). Madeleine's childeren (just like their mother) mostly got 'new' ducal titles or with a more limited royal history (probably taking into account that Leonore was the spare at that point).

And while Estelle did get a ducal title with a lot of history; her younger brother's title has only been awarded to future kings.

Estelle: Östergötland
Sune Sik, Duke of Östergötland 12th century (according to 18th-century Swedish historian Magnus Boræn)
Prince Magnus, Duke of Östergötland 1560–1595
Prince John, Duke of Östergötland 1606–1618
Princess Maria Elizabeth, Duchess of Östergötland 1612–1618 as consort and widow of Prince John
Prince Fredrik Adolph, Duke of Östergötland 1772–1803
Prince Oscar, Duke of Östergötland 1829–1872, then King Oscar II of Sweden and Norway
Princess Sophia, Duchess of Östergötland 1857–1872 as consort of Prince Oscar, then Queen of Sweden and Norway
Prince Carl, Duke of Östergötland 1911–1937, Queen Astrid of Belgium's brother, later Prince Bernadotte
Princess Estelle, Duchess of Östergötland 2012–

Oscar: Skane
Prince Carl, Duke of Scania (1826-1859), later King Carl XV of Sweden and Norway
Prince Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Scania (1882-1950), later King Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden
Prince Oscar, Duke of Skåne (2016–present)

Alexander: Söndermanland
Erik Magnusson, son of King Magnus III, from 1302 until his death in 1318
Prince Karl, son of King Gustav I, from 1560 until he became King in 1604
Prince Karl Filip, son of King Karl IX, from 1609 until his death in 1622
Prince Karl, son of King Adolf Fredrik, from 1772 until he became King in 1809
Prince Oscar, son of King Karl XIV Johan, from before 1818 until he became King in 1844
Prince Carl Oscar, son of Crown Prince (later King) Karl (XV), from his birth in 1852 until his death in 1854
Prince Wilhelm, son of King Gustaf V, from his birth in 1884 until his death in 1965
Prince Alexander, grandson of King Carl XVI Gustaf, from 2016

Gabriel: Dalarna
Prince August, Duke of Dalarna 1831–1873
Prince Carl Johan, Duke of Dalarna 1916–1946
Prince Gabriel, Duke of Dalarna 2017–present

Leonore: Gotland
Duke Eric, Lord of Gotland (1397)
Ex-King Eric, Lord of Gotland (1439–1449)
Prince Oscar, Duke of Gotland (1859–1888)
Princess Leonore, Duchess of Gotland (2014–present)

Nicolas: Angermanland
Prince Nicolas, Duke of Ångermanland (2015 - present)

Adrienne: Blekinge
Princess Adrienne, Duchess of Blekinge (2018 - present)

Indeed, the difference is quite visible.

It also mirrors the King's distribution of the princely crowns of the Royal House, which are nowadays featured primarily at christenings and weddings. The conventional understanding is that the order of precedence of the princely crowns is determined by their antiquity. The King conferred the three original princely crowns (Karl XIII's Crown, Frederik Adolf's Crown, and Sofia Albertina's Crown) on Prince Carl Philip, Prince Alexander, and Princess Sofia, respectively. In contrast, he conferred the crown which is newest and therefore lowest in the order of precedence (Prince Wilhelm's Crown) on Prince Daniel, and the second-newest crown (Princess Eugénie's Crown) on Princess Leonore.

https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/kungligt/prins-alexander-sist-att-fa-en-egen-krona/

 

[Silverpot]

I must confess that I'm a bit confused by this discussion.
Why would anyone get a noble title from Luxemburg just because they are descendants from CGXVI? Sweden doesn't have any peers, we're all commoners, even the King in fact. So the idea is absolutely ludicrous and would very much laughed at by the Swedes.



And for the discussion about the duchies; One province isn't better than another. The title means absolutely nothing to the person holding it, it's just a nice way of drawing attention to the province. I'll have to hope for Victoria to create a duchy for my province, Bohuslän, next.


And I also don't understand the indignation about Alexander getting Södermanland and Oscar Skåne. Please remember that this isn't done to please the prince/sses but to please the provinces.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

I must confess that I'm a bit confused by this discussion.
Why would anyone get a noble title from Luxemburg just because they are descendants from CGXVI? Sweden doesn't have any peers, we're all commoners, even the King in fact. So the idea is absolutely ludicrous and would very much laughed at by the Swedes.

The idea is discussed from time to time because it was implemented for every former Prince of the Royal House of Bernadotte in the past. Each received a hereditary noble title from either Luxembourg or Belgium to be used by their legitimate descendants in male line.

And for the discussion about the duchies; One province isn't better than another. The title means absolutely nothing to the person holding it, it's just a nice way of drawing attention to the province. I'll have to hope for Victoria to create a duchy for my province, Bohuslän, next.

And I also don't understand the indignation about Alexander getting Södermanland and Oscar Skåne. Please remember that this isn't done to please the prince/sses but to please the provinces.

Your opinion that no duchy is better than another is an entirely valid one, and indeed I hope that opinion is held by most people in Sweden. However, as Somebody explained (I've quoted the post again below), there are a number of reasons why Södermanland is sometimes treated as the most distinguished duchy:

It was among the very first regions in Sweden to be reigned over by a duke.
It has been linked to a higher number of future kings than the other duchies.
It is the only ducal title which currently has a palace (or any other wealth) attached to it.

In the eyes of the King, the history of the dukedom is apparently of some importance because, as Somebody pointed out, the children of Princess Madeleine have consistently received dukedoms with less distinguished royal histories compared to their cousins.

It's also clear that the king treated his son's children differently in terms of dukedoms than his younger daughter's children. While especially Carl Philip's eldest child (the rightful heir in CG's eyes?!) got ducal titles with a lot of history (and a palace attached to it). Madeleine's childeren (just like their mother) mostly got 'new' ducal titles or with a more limited royal history (probably taking into account that Leonore was the spare at that point).

And while Estelle did get a ducal title with a lot of history; her younger brother's title has only been awarded to future kings.

Estelle: Östergötland
Sune Sik, Duke of Östergötland 12th century (according to 18th-century Swedish historian Magnus Boræn)
Prince Magnus, Duke of Östergötland 1560–1595
Prince John, Duke of Östergötland 1606–1618
Princess Maria Elizabeth, Duchess of Östergötland 1612–1618 as consort and widow of Prince John
Prince Fredrik Adolph, Duke of Östergötland 1772–1803
Prince Oscar, Duke of Östergötland 1829–1872, then King Oscar II of Sweden and Norway
Princess Sophia, Duchess of Östergötland 1857–1872 as consort of Prince Oscar, then Queen of Sweden and Norway
Prince Carl, Duke of Östergötland 1911–1937, Queen Astrid of Belgium's brother, later Prince Bernadotte
Princess Estelle, Duchess of Östergötland 2012–

Oscar: Skane
Prince Carl, Duke of Scania (1826-1859), later King Carl XV of Sweden and Norway
Prince Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Scania (1882-1950), later King Gustaf VI Adolf of Sweden
Prince Oscar, Duke of Skåne (2016–present)

Alexander: Söndermanland
Erik Magnusson, son of King Magnus III, from 1302 until his death in 1318
Prince Karl, son of King Gustav I, from 1560 until he became King in 1604
Prince Karl Filip, son of King Karl IX, from 1609 until his death in 1622
Prince Karl, son of King Adolf Fredrik, from 1772 until he became King in 1809
Prince Oscar, son of King Karl XIV Johan, from before 1818 until he became King in 1844
Prince Carl Oscar, son of Crown Prince (later King) Karl (XV), from his birth in 1852 until his death in 1854
Prince Wilhelm, son of King Gustaf V, from his birth in 1884 until his death in 1965
Prince Alexander, grandson of King Carl XVI Gustaf, from 2016

Gabriel: Dalarna
Prince August, Duke of Dalarna 1831–1873
Prince Carl Johan, Duke of Dalarna 1916–1946
Prince Gabriel, Duke of Dalarna 2017–present

Leonore: Gotland
Duke Eric, Lord of Gotland (1397)
Ex-King Eric, Lord of Gotland (1439–1449)
Prince Oscar, Duke of Gotland (1859–1888)
Princess Leonore, Duchess of Gotland (2014–present)

Nicolas: Angermanland
Prince Nicolas, Duke of Ångermanland (2015 - present)

Adrienne: Blekinge
Princess Adrienne, Duchess of Blekinge (2018 - present)

 

[Somebody]

I must confess that I'm a bit confused by this discussion.
Why would anyone get a noble title from Luxemburg just because they are descendants from CGXVI? Sweden doesn't have any peers, we're all commoners, even the King in fact. So the idea is absolutely ludicrous and would very much laughed at by the Swedes.

History

And for the discussion about the duchies; One province isn't better than another. The title means absolutely nothing to the person holding it, it's just a nice way of drawing attention to the province. I'll have to hope for Victoria to create a duchy for my province, Bohuslän, next.

And I also don't understand the indignation about Alexander getting Södermanland and Oscar Skåne. Please remember that this isn't done to please the prince/sses but to please the provinces.

If that is the case, why would they keep pleasing the same provinces over and over again and not pleasing other provinces at all?

The only province that was specifically chosen because of the province itself was Dalarna - because of Sofia's connection to it (as she emphasized at the christening) - although also in that case it had royal history, so must have been considered appropriate by the king for a son of his son (so, male-line).

 

[Mbruno]

I must confess that I'm a bit confused by this discussion.
Why would anyone get a noble title from Luxemburg just because they are descendants from CGXVI? Sweden doesn't have any peers, we're all commoners, even the King in fact. So the idea is absolutely ludicrous and would very much laughed at by the Swedes.

While Sweden doesn't have any peers (that is correct), Sweden does have a nobility. The nobility has been removed fron the sphere of public law (i.e. it is no longer regulated by the State), but it has not been abolished in Sweden. Instead, the nobility still exists as a private corporation which collectively owns certain assets (including the palace of the House of Nobility) and is funded by a head tax that is imposed on all legally recognized adult members of the noble estate.

The Swedish Royal Court in particular certainly still recognizes nobility and treats noblemen differently from "commoners' considering that titles like Baron or Count, when applicable, are prefixed to given names and surnames in all guest lists for royal events like weddings and christenings.

 

[Silverpot]

While Sweden doesn't have any peers (that is correct), Sweden does have a nobility. The nobility has been removed fron the sphere of public law (i.e. it is no longer regulated by the State), but it has not been abolished in Sweden. Instead, the nobility still exists as a private corporation which collectively owns certain assets (including the palace of the House of Nobility) and is funded by a head tax that is imposed on all legally recognized adult members of the noble estate.

The Swedish Royal Court in particular certainly still recognizes nobility and treats noblemen differently from "commoners' considering that titles like Baron or Count, when applicable, are prefixed to given names and surnames in all guest lists for royal events like weddings and christenings.

True, but even though the existing nobility isn't abolished, it's not possible to introduce a new noble house. Thus a titel from Luxembourg will not be considered noble and will not be a part of the that private corporation.

So, what's the point? It will only look ridiculous.

 

[Silverpot]

History


If that is the case, why would they keep pleasing the same provinces over and over again and not pleasing other provinces at all?

The only province that was specifically chosen because of the province itself was Dalarna - because of Sofia's connection to it (as she emphasized at the christening) - although also in that case it had royal history, so must have been considered appropriate by the king for a son of his son (so, male-line).

What I'm trying to convey is a Swedish view on this duchy thing and I'm just saying that you make too much of it. It has no significance to the citizens of the Kingdom of Sweden, it's just a nice tradition without any value.

Even if it did have any importance; why would be such a terrible thing to give Södermanland to Alexander? This is what puzzles me most wit this discussion.

 

[JR76]

True, but even though the existing nobility isn't abolished, it's not possible to introduce a new noble house. Thus a titel from Luxembourg will not be considered noble and will not be a part of the that private corporation.

So, what's the point? It will only look ridiculous.

Just because a noble family isn't introduced on Riddarhuset doesn't mean that they aren't noble. Foreign noble titles are carried and used by many Swedes of whom many, including the Counts of Wisborg, Prince Cantacuzene, Duke D'Otrante, Marquess Lagergren to name a few, are members of the Unintroduced Nobility Association that represent 115 families.

 

[Silverpot]

@Tatiana Maria


"
"It is the only ducal title which currently has a palace (or any other wealth) attached to it."


I guess you're thinking about Stenhammar but it doesn't have much wealth attached to it other than to it's owner, which is the Swedish State. It's only a lease hold and as such it's not inheritable (is that a correct word?).


After the current lease holder dies the State will appoint a new one and since Carl Philip has a degree in agriculture and has an all around interest in farming and forrestry, I suppose he will get the job. But after him? Who knows, it can be any of the other boys. The owner will naturally appoint the one best suited for the task. They want their property to be handled by someone who knows their stuff, I imagine.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

After the current lease holder dies the State will appoint a new one and since Carl Philip has a degree in agriculture and has an all around interest in farming and forrestry, I suppose he will get the job. But after him? Who knows, it can be any of the other boys. The owner will naturally appoint the one best suited for the task. They want their property to be handled by someone who knows their stuff, I imagine.

There is an exception: If the Duke of Södermanland had continued to be a prince of the royal house, his right to hold the lease to Stenhammar would have been given priority over the other princes under the terms of the testament (see the text here). After the reorganization last year, it is unclear how the testament will be interpreted.

What I'm trying to convey is a Swedish view on this duchy thing and I'm just saying that you make too much of it. It has no significance to the citizens of the Kingdom of Sweden, it's just a nice tradition without any value.

If I understood correctly, in post #281 you requested clarification of the discussion about the duchies, and Somebody was responding to your question.

Even if it did have any importance; why would be such a terrible thing to give Södermanland to Alexander? This is what puzzles me most wit this discussion.

I didn't find a reference to "a terrible thing" in this discussion, but I imagine it is discussed because it appears significant, especially when viewed in the light of similar decisions of the King, such as that mentioned in post #280.

 

[JR76]

There is an exception: If the Duke of Södermanland had continued to be a prince of the royal house, his right to hold the lease to Stenhammar would have been given priority over the other princes under the terms of the testament (see the text here).

There's an important if there - "if he or his guardian so wishes"
There's one thing about the term "konungahuset" that bugs me and that I guess you'd have to look in old State Calendars to find out - was there a differentiation of the Royal House and the Royal family at the time of the von Kraemer will or is that a more recent invention. If there were not that distinction at the time could it be argued that any prince and Duke of Södermanland is eligible even if not a member of the Royal House as we define it today?

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

In the eyes of the King, the history of the dukedom is apparently of some importance because, as Somebody pointed out, the children of Princess Madeleine have consistently received dukedoms with less distinguished royal histories compared to their cousins.

That is true, considering that Madeleine herself and her latter two children were granted completely unused duchies, which would otherwise not be a common practice for those higher in line (except a new duchy in Norrland is created every time the heir apparent to the heir apparent to the heir apparent is born, see Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Västerbotten and Carl XVI Gustaf, born Duke of Jämtland)
-
When Gustaf Adolf, Duke of Västerbotten is born,
his father Gustaf VI Adolf was Duke of Skåne,
his uncles Wilhelm and Erik were Dukes of Södermanland and Västmanland respectively,
his grandfather Gustaf V was Duke of Värmland,
his great-uncles Carl and Eugen were Dukes of Västergötland and Närke.
Gustaf Adolf could have been granted the dukedom of Uppland which has been used in the 14th century. Instead, a whole new duchy in Norrland was what he got. Prior to him, no duchy in Norrland has been granted officially. And the one who gets the dukedom of Uppland was his younger brother Sigvard who lost the dukedom eventually.
-
When Carl XVI Gustaf was born,
his father Gustaf Adolf was Duke of Västerbotten,
his uncle Bertil was Duke of Halland,
his grandfather Gustaf VI Adolf was Duke of Skåne,
his great-uncle Wilhelm was Duke of Södermanland,
his great-grandfather Gustaf V was born the Duke of Värmland,
his great-great-uncles Carl and Eugen were Dukes of Västergötland and Närke respectively.
The Dukes of Uppland, Dalarna, Småland, Östergötland and Gotland lost their titles due to unapproved marriage.
Again, Carl XVI Gustaf could have picked up any of those titles or be the Duke of Västmanland or Öland, all of those having long histories of their own. Öland was used by his namesake Carolus Gustavus, but never used again since then.
Instead, another grand new duchy in Norrland was granted - Jämtland.
The next time a grand new duchy in Norrland was granted was to Carl XVI Gustaf's third child, Madeleine (Hälsingland and Gästrikland) and then to her second child, Nicolas (Ångermanland).
-

Your opinion that no duchy is better than another is an entirely valid one, and indeed I hope that opinion is held by most people in Sweden. However, as Somebody explained (I've quoted the post again below), there are a number of reasons why Södermanland is sometimes treated as the most distinguished duchy:

It was among the very first regions in Sweden to be reigned over by a duke.
It has been linked to a higher number of future kings than the other duchies.
It is the only ducal title which currently has a palace (or any other wealth) attached to it.

-
I think that in the recent years of Bernadotte Sweden, the dukedom of Södermanland, though having several more centuries of history (Carolus IX, Gustavus Adolphus and Carl XIII held the title) than the dukedom of Skåne, are more oftenly granted to those who play second fiddle to the Duke of Skåne in the recent 200 years. The dukedom of Skåne is granted always to the first grandson in line to the throne by the monarch.
-
1811-1859: Oscar I (Södermanland, born 1799, enthroned 1844)
1826-1872: Carl XV (Skåne, enthroned 1859)
1852-1854: Carl Oscar (Södermanland)
1882-1973: Gustaf VI Adolf (Skåne)
1884-1965: Wilhelm (Södermanland)
2016-: Oscar (Skåne)
2016-: Alexander (Södermanland)
-
A possible reason why Carl XV was not granted the dukedom of Södermanland was because Oscar was still the Duke of Södermanland at that time, and since the dukedom of Skåne could not be used for Carl Oscar when he was born, the dukedom of Södermanland was conferred to him.
But as we can see, both Oscar II and Carl XVI Gustaf favored Skåne over Södermanland for a grandson higher in line even when both duchies were vacant at the same time.
Perhaps Stenhammar was never meant for those who will be future monarchs?
-
And to be honest, I found out that ducal titles for the children and grandchildren of Carl XVI Gustaf are mostly given on a land-basis from south to north.
Västergötland, Östergötland and Skåne are in Götaland and are used by the Crown Princess Family;
Värmland, Södermanland and Dalarna are in Svealand and are used by the Prince Family;
The only exception is two of Madeleine's daughters which were given dukedoms in New Götaland (Gotland and Blekinge). Madeleine and her son have dukedoms from Norrland (Hälsingland, Gästrikland, Ångermanland)

 

[LadyFinn]

Svensk Damtidning
Today it is a year since the king decided to make the royal house smaller. But how did it happen - really? Our editor-in-chief Johan T Lindwall talks about the difficulties, setbacks and future of our royalty!
Ett år efter kungens order_ så blev det – egentligen

Could you possibly give us a summary of what he said?

Here at Svensk Damtidning's article this morning
Today is exactly one year since the king removed the status of royal highnesses for five of his grandchildren, namely Leonore, Nicolas, Adrienne, Alexander and Gabriel.
For most people, the decision came like a bolt from the blue, says Svensk Damtiding's editor-in-chief Johan T Lindwall.
- It came as a surprise to most people, but we who knew that there was an investigation underway with the apanage and how much to pay when it comes to the royal house. The king did this to prevent a major investigation into what the royal house should actually pay for. But for many it was a big surprise and many became very sad. That several of the king's grandchildren will lose their royal highness titles and also the chance to give their children prince and princess titles in the future.
The decision meant that the five grandchildren are no longer counted as royal highnesses, but they still have their prince and princess titles that they received at birth. But above all, they will not be supported by any apanage when they come of age. Such large changes are seldom seen in royal contexts, not only in Sweden but throughout the world.
But just a few months after the decision, the corona came. It is a situation that was impossible to predict and Johan T Lindwall believes that if the king knew what it would be like, he would probably have waited to make some major changes.
- In concrete terms, we have not really seen what the decision means for quite shortly after the corona pandemic came, so we have not seen what effect this has had. We will see what effects it will have and it will be very interesting, says Johan T.
Madeleine and Sofia make different choices
One thing is clear. Madeleine wants to keep her children as far away from the spotlight as possible, while Sofia is a little more open to taking her sons with them when they are to be seen out in the country. Among other things, both Alexander and Gabriel have been involved in inaugurating rest areas in nature reserves in their respective duchies. In contrast, Madeleine said in an interview with magazine Mama last year that she did not even tell the children that they are royalty, something she has chosen to wait until the end.
Madeleine gör ett annat val – än Sofia _Svensk Dam

Lindwall says at the video also that the king's decision was big news abroad. And at after March the work meetings have mostly been digital. Now we are going to see the effect of the king's decision, how much more work it means to the crown princess. That is the question which was made after the king's decision, a worry that the crown princess and her family will get too much responsibility and work. And the king will turn 75 years next year and the queen is even older. It will also be about how much they have strength to work in the future and how many work events they can do.

 

[Mbruno]

Svensk Damtidning
Today it is a year since the king decided to make the royal house smaller. But how did it happen - really? Our editor-in-chief Johan T Lindwall talks about the difficulties, setbacks and future of our royalty!
Ett år efter kungens order_ så blev det – egentligen

Could you possibly give us a summary of what he said?

 

[LadyFinn]

At TV4 News morning on 13th October:
We get a royal update from court reporter Sara Ericsson. It is a year since the king announced that the children of Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philips would no longer belong to the royal house, what has that meant for the roles?
Kungligt_ Kronprinsessan och Estelles nya roller TV4Play

 

[Somebody]

Moved...

So, based on the King's speech, the son of the Crown Prince (Kronprins) was called Hereditary Prince (Arvprins in the YouTube subtitles). So why isn't Estelle called "Arvprinsessa" as the eldest daughter of the Crown Princess?

Great question. It would be very consistent with the use of 'Crown princess' as official title for Victoria.

Was Carl Gustaf himself known as Hereditary Prince from the moment his father died? Or was this not used because the title had been used for his father and it would have been to painful for his mother?

He did start using the title 'Crown prince' once his grandfather ascended the throne, so the fact that he wasn't the son of the king wasn't an impediment at that point, so theoretically it shouldn't have been an issue for him to be the Hereditary Prince until he was 4.

It seems Carl Gustaf's grandfather was also known as Hereditary Prince before he became Crown Prince.

 

[JR76]

There's probably a quite simple explanation. "Arvprins" was used as a variety of "arvfurste" and in some cases to signify the first-in-line to the throne but later came to be the sometimes title of the second-in-line to the throne. Since "arvfurste" was taken out of use with the new order of succession in 1980 I assume that "arvprins" was as well. A few people realise that up until then the official title for a male member of the Royal family was "Sveriges arvfurste". The use of prince, although widespread and even semi-official, was really an informal way to style arvfurstarna.
Regarding Carl XVI Gustav I can't find that he was ever styled "arvprins" between the deaths of his father and great-grandfather but he was frequently styled "our little arvfurste" by the Swedish media between his birth and him becoming crown prince.

 

[LadyFinn]

Author and popular historian Herman Lindqvist wrote at his column in Svensk Damtidning last week that the King's decisions in October 2019 changed most the life of Victoria and Daniel, their work workload has increased dramatically.
They are now the only full-time members of the royal family. After 7th October 2019 Victoria has had 125 official work events, Daniel 107, Estelle 4 and Oscar 2 (I don't know how Lindqvist has counted the official work events). That makes 238 events for the crown princess family, despite the corona isolation. Due to age and the pandemic, the royal couple has only been able to perform a total of 137 missions, many of them as phone or video meetings. Carl Philip hasn't been very active, he has only 20 work events, Sofia 7, little Gabriel had his first mission in his dukedom Dalarna. Sofia has worked in Sophiahemmet. That Victoria and Daniel have more than a hundred more work events than the royal couple shows that the king and queen can relax even more in the future. The royal family's duties and missions are carried out with bravura by the Crown Princess couple, even Estelle has been allowed to represent and seems to do so with heart and soul. The state visits can't unfortunately be done via a link. Perhaps the pandemic shows that state visits are something that will not be so common in the future or take on a completely different form, Lindqvist writes.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

...............

 

[0325.Mikael.0929]

Granting the reigning monarch's own dukedom

Ever since the reinstatement of the practice of granting dukedoms to royals since 1772, only twice has the dukedom of the reigning monarch been granted to a newborn royal.
-
Carl XIII was granted the Dukedom of Södermanland in 1772 by his brother Gustaf III, and he ascended on 6 June 1809 upon the deposition of his nephew Gustaf IV Adolph. On 5 November 1810, he granted the Dukedom of Södermanland to Oscar I while he was still alive and reigning. Carl XIII died on 5 February 1818.
-
Oscar I ascended on 8 March 1844, and on 14 December 1852, he granted the Dukedom of Södermanland to his grandson Prince Carl Oscar. Oscar I died on 8 July 1859.
-
But ever since then, the monarch has never granted his/her own dukedom to newborn royals. There is one exception though: there has been once when the dukedom of the Queen Dowager was granted to a newborn royal. Oscar II was Duke of Östergötland, and since Oscar II and Sophia of Nassau got married before their ascension, Sophia of Nassau was also Duchess of Östergötland. Oscar II died in 1907 and Sophia died in 1913. The title of Duke of Östergötland, however, was granted in 1911 to Prince Carl, a grandson of Sophia, when she was still alive.
-
One more honorable mention was that Kristine Rivelsrud, the spouse of Prince Carl, was still alive in 2012 when Estelle was born and granted the dukedom of Östergötland.

 

[Mbruno]

I wonder how the issue of CP and Sofia's third child's titlle/style will be handled.

When Prince Alexander and Prince Gabriel were born, they were still supposed to be princes of the Royal House (a.k.a. "Princes of Sweden"). As such, their given names were announced in a Council of State in which they were also awarded a duchy, and, upon being christened, they were inducted into the order of the Seraphim. Following the 2019 reforms, CP and Sofia's third child will no longer be born as a Prince of Sweden so, accordingly, no Council of State meeting, duchy or Seraphim sash should be expected. Alexander and Gabriel, nonetheless, despite ceasing to be HRHs, were allowed to retain a courtesy titular prefix of "Prince" and their respective duchies. If the third child becomes a plain Mr/Ms [xxx] Bernadotte, with no courtesy title or duchy, an asymmetry will arise between the siblings.

 

[Heavs]

I'm far from an expert on the Swedish royal court but I can't imagine the King would want his son's legitimate third child to be plain Mr/Miss and different from their siblings.

Wasn't that one of the reasons for the announcement in the first place? That they could no longer put off dealing with the fact that Madeleine's children were not being raised in Sweden according to the act of succession and might lose their titles/succession rights completely if the Court didn't act to remove them from the royal house?

Perhaps he/she will just be Prince/ss and no Duchy or given Duchy for parity's sake? I assume there's some provision as there was always the chance either family could have one more.

 

[Tatiana Maria]

My understanding is that following the reform of the Constitution in 1975, there are no statutory provisions concerning royal titles. While some academics might suggest that unwritten rules based on custom have not been altered, I don't envision the government or parliament challenging the king's expected decision to create his newest grandchild Prince/ss [xxx], Duchess/Duke of X.

However, as I wrote before, it is a different story with coats of arms and orders. There are laws which include the principle that only members of the Royal House may use a royal coat of arms, and only members of the Royal House and foreigners may be awarded the Order of the Seraphim, so I am very curious to see how that will be handled.

According to the law (or at least the traditional interpretation of the law), the King is legally not empowered to bestow royal coats of arms on anyone other than the members of the Royal House, or to bestow the state orders (the Seraphim or Polar Star) on anyone other than members of the Royal House and non-Swedes.

Will the King simply violate the law to bestow a (Royal) Coat of Arms and the Order of the Seraphim? Or will the King, Parliament, or the courts reinterpret the law, as occurred recently in Belgium? Or will the King declare Prince Carl Philip's third child to be a member of the Royal House at birth, bestow the coat of arms and order, and then demote them?


Lag (1982:268) om Sveriges riksvapen Svensk författningssamling 1982:1982:268 - Riksdagen

Statschefen kan ge andra medlemmar av det kungliga huset tillåtelse att som personligt vapen bruka stora riksvapnet med de ändringar och tillägg som statschefen bestämmer.​

Ordenskungörelse (1974:768) Svensk författningssamling 1974:1974:768 t.o.m. SFS 1995:1025 - Riksdagen

1 § Inom Kungl. Serafimerorden kan utmärkelser tilldelas statschefer och därmed jämställda personer samt medlemmar av det svenska konungahuset. Förordning (1995:1025).

2 § Inom Kungl. Nordstjärneorden kan utmärkelser tilldelas medlemmar av det svenska konungahuset samt utländska medborgare som har gjort personliga insatser för Sverige eller för svenskt intresse.

Med utländsk medborgare likställs statslös som är bosatt utomlands.
Förordning (1995:1025).​