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  #181  
Old 10-08-2019, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess View Post
As far as I know, the rank of a king is by protocol always higher, so the spouse of a reigning queen can never be king.
No, protocol is decided by the King, and I am not aware of the King (or any other reigning European monarch) treating e.g. King Felipe VI of Spain as higher in rank than Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom.

From a historical perspective, it used to be the general practice in Europe (albeit not in Sweden) that a reigning queen's husband took his title from her in the same way as a reigning king's wife; the latest example was Queen Isabel II of Spain and her husband King Francisco de Asis.


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Originally Posted by Mari-Anne View Post
Upon his marriage Daniel became Prince of Sweden, Duke of Västergötland. So how the King treated Victoria's husband differently? If so then other royal houses are also to blame because, e.g. Queen Elizabeth's husband is Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh (not King Philip!). Queen Beatrix of the Neatherlands husband was Prince Claus of the Netherlands (HRH The Prince Consort of the Netherlands). Margrethe II of Denmark husband HRH Prince Henrik of Denmark. Non of them The Crown Princes nor the Kings.
He is treated differently than for example the King's grandmother Margaretha, the wife of Crown Prince Gustaf Adolf (later King Gustaf VI Adolf), who took her title from her husband and was known as Crown Princess. Daniel was given the personal title of Prince of Sweden rather than using the title of his wife and being known as Crown Prince.

Yes, women and men are also treated differently in many other European monarchies in their ability to bestow titles on their spouses and/or children. The point Countessmeout was making was that this is inconsistent with treating women and men equally in inheritance of the throne. Being the head of state is after all a more powerful responsibility than simply bestowing a title on a husband or child.
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  #182  
Old 10-08-2019, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The nobility is an ancient institution going back to the end of the first millennium. In almost all countries is chosen not to change these rules. Yes, Prince Carl Philip belongs to the royal family, not to the nobility. But now we reach a situation that the only son of the country's first family can not pass the ancestral title while all eldest sons of all titled noble families can. Prince Carl Philip is a legal and direct male agnate of a prestigious family.

Daniel Westling has added the surname Bernadotte to his own name. His children are the procreation of the Royal House of Sweden, which has been formed by various families in it's long history. Carl Philip Bernadotte is in the centuries old tradition the procreation of the Bernadotte dynasty. It would be weird that exactly this line would lose all historic honorifics. I guess in due time a prudent and courteous solution will be found as I am sure also his sister, Princess Victoria, is aware and proud of her ancestral House, it's history and tradition and of her brother, Sweden's last Crown Prince.

The children of Lord Frederick Windsor are direct male line descendants of a king as well and will be "just" Master and Miss Windsor. Does it matter so much that that happens 2 generations earlier in Sweden?
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  #183  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
He is treated differently than for example the King's grandmother Margaretha, the wife of Crown Prince Gustaf Adolf (later King Gustaf VI Adolf), who took her title from her husband and was known as Crown Princess. Daniel was given the personal title of Prince of Sweden rather than using the title of his wife and being known as Crown Prince.

Yes, women and men are also treated differently in many other European monarchies in their ability to bestow titles on their spouses and/or children. The point Countessmeout was making was that this is inconsistent with treating women and men equally in inheritance of the throne. Being the head of state is after all a more powerful responsibility than simply bestowing a title on a husband or child.

Daniel is not the male heir apparent to the Swedish throne by birth, why he should have been made the crown prince after his marriage? Female spouse is also not the crown princesses in her own right but by courtesy. If Victoria should abdicate one day in a distant future, then her daughter Estelle will take over, not her husband (unless Victoria decide so). It appears that the male spouse do not get the courtesy title of the crown prince or the king. Perhaps Victoria will decide one day that he want to make Daniel the King? But I think that Estelle's future husband will be also a prince, not a crown prince. If Daniel has been anyhow treated badly, then other married-in husbands too
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  #184  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by An Ard Ri View Post
Princess Leonore
26 February 2014 - 6 October 2019: Her Royal Highness Princess Leonore Lilian Maria, Duchess of Gotland

7 October 2019 onwards : Princess Leonore Lilian Maria, Duchess of Gotland.

Until October 7, Princess Leonore was in addition titled Princess of Sweden.


H.K.H. Prinsessan Leonore - Sveriges Kungahus
H.K.H. Prinsessan Leonore

Leonore Lilian Maria, Prinsessa av Sverige, Hertiginna av Gotland, föddes den 20 februari 2014 som första barn till Prinsessan Madeleine och herr Christopher O'Neill.

From how princes and princesses of the royal house were historically called, I believe her titles until October 7 would correctly be listed as:
Her Royal Highness Princess Leonore Lilian Maria, Princess of Sweden, Duchess of Gotland

Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess B View Post
Even without the HRH, they are still Prince and Princess - how is life going to be easier?
It is not the removal of the HRH which is expected to make their lives easier, but the public announcement that they will not be burdens on the taxpayer and the rules restricting the royals' ability to work for profit will not be applied to them.

Their removal from the Royal House was the action taken to accord them the freedom to work as they please, and the loss of the HRH is simply a conventional effect of removal from the Royal House.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Mari-Anne View Post
Daniel is not the male heir apparent to the Swedish throne by birth, why he should have been made the crown prince after his marriage? Female spouse is also not the crown princesses in her own right but by courtesy. If Victoria should abdicate one day in a distant future, then her daughter Estelle will take over, not her husband (unless Victoria decide so). It appears that the male spouse do not get the courtesy title of the crown prince or the king.
Likewise, Margaretha was not the female heir apparent to the throne by birth, and when the then-King died, it was Gustaf VI Adolf, not his (second) wife, who took over. But that did not hinder his wives from being known as Crown Princess, which is not the case for Daniel, even though Victoria's position is the same as Gustaf VI Adolf's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mari-Anne View Post
Perhaps Victoria will decide one day that he want to make Daniel the King? But I think that Estelle's future husband will be also a prince, not a crown prince. If Daniel has been anyhow treated badly, then other married-in husbands too
The issue is rather how the princesses and queens by birth are treated unequally to princes and kings by birth, in their ability to pass titles to their spouses and children as the head of the family.

We can all agree that Sweden is not unique in this regard, but that does not alter the fact that Victoria is treated differently on the basis of her gender.
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  #185  
Old 10-08-2019, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Did the Marshal mean that the King has altered his interpretation of the Act of Succession and Princess Leonore might remain in the line of succession even if she begins her schooling in the United States?



I believe the Court is following a literal reading of the Act of Succession, which says that "princes and princesses of the Royal House are brought up [...] within the Realm". Since Madeleine's children are no longer "princes and princesses of the Royal House", the literal interpretation is that the aforementioned requirement no longer applies to them.


Accordingly, if we keep reading the Act literally, Madeleine's and CP's children (and their respective descendants) will no longer forfeit their succession rights if they marry without the consent of the government granted upon application by the King, or become the sovereign ruler of a foreign country without the consent of the King and the Parliament of Sweden. Again, both provisions in the text apply only to "princes or princesses of the Royal House".



As I said, the reason why the Act of Succession of 1810 laid down several requirements on "princes of the Royal House" (later amended in 1979 to "princes and/or princesses of the Royal House") as opposed to "persons in the line of succession" is probably that, in the legislator's reasoning, those two classes of people were equivalent. In fact, Alexander and Gabriel are the first direct male descendants in male line of Jean Baptiste Bernadotte who ceased to be "princes of the Royal House" (HRHs) without simultaneously forefeiting their succession rights. We are in unchartered territory then.



Strictly speaking, in a literal reading of the Act of Succession, the only possibility now to disqualify Madeleine's or CP's children from inheriting the throne would be if they ceased to profess " the pure evangelical faith, as adopted and explained in the unaltered Confession of Augsburg and in the Resolution of the Uppsala Meeting of the year 1593" as the disqualification based on the aformentioned religious test extends to "Any member of the Royal Family" as opposed to "princes and/or princesses of the Royal House" only.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Until October 7, Princess Leonore was in addition titled Princess of Sweden.


H.K.H. Prinsessan Leonore - Sveriges Kungahus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
H.K.H. Prinsessan Leonore

Leonore Lilian Maria, Prinsessa av Sverige, Hertiginna av Gotland, föddes den 20 februari 2014 som första barn till Prinsessan Madeleine och herr Christopher O'Neill.
From how princes and princesses of the royal house were historically called, I believe her titles until October 7 would correctly be listed as:
Her Royal Highness Princess Leonore Lilian Maria, Princess of Sweden, Duchess of Gotland


Exactly. The title of "Prinsessa av Sverige" as well as the style "HKH" have been removed now. Here is the new entry for Princess Leonore's bio at the Court's website

Quote:

Prinsessan Leonore





Prinsessan Leonore Lilian Maria föddes den 20 februari 2014. Prinsessan är Hertiginna av Gotland. Prinsessan Leonore döptes i Drottningholms slottskyrka den 8 juni 2014.


Compare that to Oscar's entry for example.



Quote:

H.K.H. Prins Oscar


Oscar Carl Olof, Prins av Sverige, Hertig av Skåne, föddes den 2 mars 2016 som andra barn till Kronprinsessan och Prins Daniel.




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  #186  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownPrincessJava View Post
[...]

The Swedish parliament had already stated that wanted to reduce the number of future taxpayer funded royals. It was very wise of the King to do this now, before he, or Victoria were forced too. And I believe the changes show that the Swedish parliament and people are completely done with the antiquated concept of agnatic primogeniture, in all forms, in terms of succession to the Swedish throne.

The desire of having fewer taxpayer funded royals has nothing to do with royal and noble titles. Already since the 19th C in the Netherlands no one else than the present, the future and the former Sovereign (and their spouses) have received an income from the State. No matter the array of Princes and Princesses with or without HRH, with or without a hereditary noble title. It is simply a definition the lawmaker sets. One can be a Most Imperial Royal Archiducal Grand-Ducal or even an Apostolic and Most Glorious Majesty and be left totally penniless by the State.
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  #187  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:35 AM
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The inequal treatment of spouses has officially been solved in the Netherlands
A male consort (like Heinrich, Bernhard and Claus) is a Prince of the Netherlands and a female consort (like Máxima) is a Princess of the Netherlands. Period. More gender-equality and clarity is not possible.

Sadly this clear and official style is blurred by the daily practice in which Máxima is referred as "Queen Máxima" as a courtesy title, following the same principle that the wife of a titled gentleman can be addressed with her husband's style and title(s), as is the use in all monarchies.

But officially, there is no gender-unequality anymore in the titulature of Dutch consorts. Other monarchies may follow this path. Camilla, maybe.
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  #188  
Old 10-08-2019, 09:53 AM
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In addition to losing five of the king's grandchildren in the royal house, Fredrik Wersäll also talked about the role of Crown Princess Victoria.
When Victoria will succeed the king as our head of state, she has an increased responsibility to represent Sweden already.
- We have for a long time seen that the Crown Princess couple takes on a greater responsibility. This means that responsibility can be softened for the prince and the princess, says Fredrik Wersäll.
With fewer official assignments, the prince and princess's part of the apanage also becomes smaller.
The director of the press department, Margareta Thorgren, doesn't believe that we will already notice some change in how much Princess Madeleine and Prince Carl Philip are seen in public.
- I would say that right now the king's decision concerns the prince's and princess couple's children. This means that for Prince Carl Philip, Princess Sofia and Princess Madeleine, there really is no change. To the extent that the king needs help with the official tasks they will continue to perform it, as it now looks.
Princess Madeleine, Chris and the children now live in Florida, USA. When they visit Stockholm, they live in an apartment at The Royal Mews on Östermalm in Stockholm. The Royal Mews is disposed of by the king. Yesterday's decision doesn't mean that Princess Madeleine's accommodation at The Royal Stables will change.
- -It is within the frame of the king's disposition. This applies to the palace, Haga and all the apartments, also The Royal Mews. Her housing situation is not affected by this decision, says Margareta Thorgren.
Prinsessan Madeleine får bo kvar på Hovstallet

Kungen lurade alla kritiker med sitt maktspel _ Svensk Dam
Translation

Svensk Damtidning also points out, that we could see the first marks of the change in the summer 2018, when the court didn't publish a group photo, but a photo of the king and queen with the crown princess family. This has also been seen on the National Day.
Vi avslöjar! Första tecknet – innan kungen tog beslutet _ Svensk Dam

The Marshal of the Realm, Fredrik Wersäll, was as a guest at SVT's Aktuellt yesterday evening. The clip starts at 3.37. The representative of the Rebublican Association and Johan T Lindwall, the editor-in-chief of Svensk Damtidning are interviewed before Fredrik Wersäll.
Aktuellt - Igår 21.00 _ SVT Play

From full-time princess to ... self-employed? Madeleine and Sofia are meeting an exciting future, after the King's new move!
Princess Sofia as CEO - in Prince Carl Philip,s company? The new winds in the royal house open up entirely new creative possibilities for the royal duo Prince Carl Philip and Princess Sofia.
The more time passes - and the older Princess Estelle becomes - the further out of the royal house's center of power they will end up. Something that was confirmed by the chief executive of the court, Marshal of the Realm Fredrik Wersäll, in SVT's Aktuellt yesterday:
- You can see it so that our crown princess, the heir to the throne, is growing more and more into her role as future head of state and in the marked tasks of the head of state. Official visits abroad, participation in the Opening of the Riksdag and such are increasingly concentrated on her. And that means that as the time goes on, the siblings can get some less central tasks.
- It also means, in the long run, that the restrictions that it entails having royal assignments - where it is of special duty to emphasize independence - the restrictions may be able to softened.
Which in ordinary Swedish means that in the future it will be free for ordinary professional work in any form even for Prince Carl Philip, Princess Sofia and Princess Madeleine.
What is waiting around the corner for these two couples?
So keep your eyes open - according to one of our informants, it is not unbelievable that we will be able to see Princess Sofia and Prince Carl Philip working together - with a joint company.
But it would also open up to Princess Madeleine as an employee of one of Chris O'Neill's companies.
Kungens drag förändrar Sofias liv – nu måste hon välja väg _ Svensk Dam
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  #189  
Old 10-08-2019, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
Svensk Damtidning also points out, that we could see the first marks of the change in the summer 2018, when the court didn't publish a group photo, but a photo of the king and queen with the crown princess family. This has also been seen on the National Day.
Vi avslöjar! Första tecknet – innan kungen tog beslutet _ Svensk Dam

I agree with the new rule for titles/ membership of the Royal House, but, if you ask me, I think it is extreme to exclude the King's younger children and their respective children from official group photos during summer vacation. Queen Beatrix, Queen Margrethe and King Albert, just to name a few, often took pictures with all of their children and grandchildren.


I wonder where all that is coming from. Is it a bit of an overreaction to the parliamentary inquiry on the future of the RF ?
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  #190  
Old 10-08-2019, 01:43 PM
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I have a question. Under the Swedish system, are the duchy titles passed to the next generation or will they revert back to the crown on the death of the current holder? In other words, at some point in the future, when Leonore, Nicholas etc die, will their duchy titles go to the oldest child or revert back to the crown?
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  #191  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Lady Marlboro View Post
I have a question. Under the Swedish system, are the duchy titles passed to the next generation or will they revert back to the crown on the death of the current holder? In other words, at some point in the future, when Leonore, Nicholas etc die, will their duchy titles go to the oldest child or revert back to the crown?
The duchies are only for life. They are not passed hereditarily.
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  #192  
Old 10-08-2019, 02:21 PM
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Unlike the British Royal Dukedoms the Swedish ducal titles are not hereditary and are for life only.
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  #193  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by ReeceT21 View Post
The only really shocking bit is that the Princely titles won't be shared by spouses. It is odd to think in 30 years we'll be talking about Prince Alexander, Duke of Sodermanland and his wife Mrs. _____ Bernadotte (presumably). But it is another good way to cut down on the amount of Princes and Princesses in the country.
If I may ask those who watched or were able to locate exact quotes from the press conference with the Marshal of the Realm: Did he say that the titles they keep will not be shared with their spouses (or children), or only that the princely titles they keep will not be shared? Put another way, would a wife of Prince Alexander or a husband of Princess Leonore become Duchess of Södermanland or Duke of Gotland without becoming a Princess or Prince?
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  #194  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:27 PM
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Can we keep this thread on topic 'Swedish Titles' there's a thread in the Belgian Forum on Belgian Titles if members want to discuss the Belgian ones there.
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  #195  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:39 PM
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My apologies, I was attempting to answer the comments on Norwegian, Danish, and Belgian titles rather than start a new discussion. I will move my replies to another thread.

ETA: My responses to ReeceT21's comments on Norwegian/Danish/Belgian titles are moved to this more appropriate thread.

http://www.theroyalforums.com/forums...ml#post2259026
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  #196  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
The duchies were not taken away because the King probably thought it would be unfair to the children and especially to the involved provinces. Going forward, Oscar ‘s children for example probably won’t get any duchy and won’t be princes either.
Seeing as King Carl XVI Gustaf's change has separated ducal titles from membership in the Royal House, I am not so sure. The recent creations of ducal titles gave rise to positive press coverage in the provinces (example), and Swedish posters here have described it as an honor for a province to be selected as a duchy. In terms of the royal family's public image, it might be wiser to continue allocating as many duchies as pragmaticism will allow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyFinn View Post
The Marshal of the Realm, Fredrik Wersäll, was as a guest at SVT's Aktuellt yesterday evening. The clip starts at 3.37. The representative of the Rebublican Association and Johan T Lindwall, the editor-in-chief of Svensk Damtidning are interviewed before Fredrik Wersäll.
Aktuellt - Igår 21.00 _ SVT Play

[...]

The more time passes - and the older Princess Estelle becomes - the further out of the royal house's center of power they will end up. Something that was confirmed by the chief executive of the court, Marshal of the Realm Fredrik Wersäll, in SVT's Aktuellt yesterday:
- You can see it so that our crown princess, the heir to the throne, is growing more and more into her role as future head of state and in the marked tasks of the head of state. Official visits abroad, participation in the Opening of the Riksdag and such are increasingly concentrated on her. And that means that as the time goes on, the siblings can get some less central tasks.
- It also means, in the long run, that the restrictions that it entails having royal assignments - where it is of special duty to emphasize independence - the restrictions may be able to softened.
Which in ordinary Swedish means that in the future it will be free for ordinary professional work in any form even for Prince Carl Philip, Princess Sofia and Princess Madeleine.

[...]

Kungens drag förändrar Sofias liv – nu måste hon välja väg _ Svensk Dam
Are the Marshal's comments truly as radical as Svensk Damtidning's interpretation of them? If in the future members of the Royal House will be free to undertake professional work "in any form", it would not have been necessary to remove the five grandchildren from the Royal House.
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  #197  
Old 10-08-2019, 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
If I may ask those who watched or were able to locate exact quotes from the press conference with the Marshal of the Realm: Did he say that the titles they keep will not be shared with their spouses (or children), or only that the princely titles they keep will not be shared? Put another way, would a wife of Prince Alexander or a husband of Princess Leonore become Duchess of Södermanland or Duke of Gotland without becoming a Princess or Prince?
Fredrik Wersäll said that none of the titles will be shared with future spouses and children.
"The titles that they now receive are personal honorary titles that they won't pass on to neither spouse nor children"
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  #198  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
Seeing as King Carl XVI Gustaf's change has separated ducal titles from membership in the Royal House, I am not so sure. The recent creations of ducal titles gave rise to positive press coverage in the provinces (example), and Swedish posters here have described it as an honor for a province to be selected as a duchy. In terms of the royal family's public image, it might be wiser to continue allocating as many duchies as pragmaticism will allow.

Your argument makes sense, but, between the children of the monarch and the children of the heir apparent, there are already potentially enough people to give out duchies to different provinces.



I still think that the duchies for the non-HRH children were kept because it would be clearly politically uncomfortable to take them away now , especially in the case of some provinces that had never been assigned duchies before, but it is going to be a legacy thing, which will not be repeated in the future for grandchildren not in direct line.


In any case, that decision will probably have to be made by Victoria as it is very likely she will be already queen by the time Oscar has children (there's no doubt that Estelle's children will be dukes/duchesses, so Oscar is the only relevant subject here).
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  #199  
Old 10-08-2019, 05:52 PM
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I can see Duchies not being granted again, it seems odd to do so to members of he family who are not formally "official royals" but equally would seem mean spirited to take them away now, many of the Duchies have organised wedding presents, christening presents etc for the family member who carries their duchy so it would be rather a snack in the face to say thanks but the title no longer exists.
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  #200  
Old 10-09-2019, 03:48 AM
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Princess Christina should have been awarded a title for her constant service to the Swedish Crown, a Countdom at least as she is by far the most active of the kings sisters.
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