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  #321  
Old 05-24-2015, 05:14 AM
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Alexander III of Russia made an amendment to the succession laws in 1886 regulating the titles of the Imperial family which stripped one member of his title of Grand Duke and demoted him to a prince and in 1917 Prince Alistair of Connaught lost both his royal status and title when George V restructured BRF so these things are neither new or a Swedish phenomenon.
That granted I do see the difference in demoting the first-in-line and a minor prince far down the line of succession.


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  #322  
Old 06-02-2015, 01:23 PM
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Pre-Wedding Information for Carl Philip and Sofia

Mod. note: Mbruno's quoted post has been posted at the pre-wedding thread of prince Carl Philip.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Madeleine will move further down the line if CP has any children, but I guess the point is not so much that CP is # 3 and Madeleine is # 4, but rather that CP was born the Crown Prince of Sweden (before that title was taken away from him) and is still the most senior agnate in the Bernadotte dynasty after his father. In fact, he will be technically the head of the family when his father passes away, even if Victoria becomes the monarch instead.

Incidentally, taking about the difference between being # 3 and #4, Prince Andrew's and Prince Edward's weddings come to my mind.

And with the same logic Count Ingolf is the head of the danish royal family and The Duke of Gloucester is the head of the British royal family.

Carl-Philip is higher in rank than Madeleine and is rightfully threated as such. The former constitution has nothing to do with the current. Therefore Victoria will be both monarch and the head of the house of Bernadotte as we don't use agnatic succession in our constitution since 1979.
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  #323  
Old 06-02-2015, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Madeleine will move further down the line if CP has any children, but I guess the point is not so much that CP is # 3 and Madeleine is # 4, but rather that CP was born the Crown Prince of Sweden (before that title was taken away from him) and is still the most senior agnate in the Bernadotte dynasty after his father. In fact, he will be technically the head of the family when his father passes away, even if Victoria becomes the monarch instead.

Incidentally, taking about the difference between being # 3 and #4, Prince Andrew's and Prince Edward's weddings come to my mind.
How is that possible? Victoria is the Crown Princess, per definition she is second and will become the next head of the family, both according to the Swedish Constitution and Law of Succession.
Unless a tragedy should take place, CP cannot become head of the family.
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  #324  
Old 06-02-2015, 01:50 PM
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Pre-Wedding Information for Carl Philip and Sofia

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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
How is that possible? Victoria is the Crown Princess, per definition she is second and will become the next head of the family, both according to the Swedish Constitution and Law of Succession.
Unless a tragedy should take place, CP cannot become head of the family.

He spoke about the male line of the family of wich Carl-Philip is the senior member after his father.

Victoria will become both the monarch and the head of the house of Bernadotte as we don't use agnatic nor agnatic-cognatic succession in our constitution since 1979.
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  #325  
Old 06-02-2015, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
And with the same logic Count Ingolf is the head of the danish royal family and The Duke of Gloucester is the head of the British royal family.
From the point of view of Salic law, they are the heads of the Windsor family and the Glücksburg family (?) . Strictly speaking, Queen Elizabeth II's children belong to the Mountbatten family whereas Queen Margrethe's children belong to the Monpezat family. I suppose nowadays they try to circumvent that problem by claiming royals don't have a "last name" and, therefore, their family affiliation is no longer defined by their father's last name.
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  #326  
Old 06-02-2015, 01:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post
How is that possible? Victoria is the Crown Princess, per definition she is second and will become the next head of the family, both according to the Swedish Constitution and Law of Succession.
Unless a tragedy should take place, CP cannot become head of the family.
Isn't there a difference between the royal family and the familial house? Wouldn't it be that Victoria will be the Queen of Sweden but it would depend too on what the familial rules of the House of Bernadotte are? If the family still goes by male primogeniture such as the peers of the UK do, its possible that CP would be head of household over his sister.

Case in point. Diana was The Princess of Wales. Royal and older than her only brother, but when her father, Earl Spencer died, his son Charles became the next Earl Spencer and therefore head of the Spencer family.

One thing about a royal wedding is that it brings up some interesting things to talk about and I'm looking forward to following this one. Not much longer to go now.
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  #327  
Old 06-02-2015, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
From the point of view of Salic law, they are the heads of the Windsor family and the Glücksburg family (?) . Strictly speaking, Queen Elizabeth II's children belong to the Mountbatten family whereas Queen Margrethe's children belong to the Monpezat family. I suppose nowadays they try to circumvent that problem by claiming royals don't have a "last name" and, therefore, their family affiliation is no longer defined by their father's last name.
Well, the Danish royals have no surname and as such don't belong to a dynasty. They are above that.
They are also counts of Montpezat, because the head of the DRF, QMII, has decided so.
As the Monarch (as well as head of the family) she is the one who has the final say on titles.
In other words the DRF members wouldn't carry the name Montpezat if she didn't allow it.

But what puzzles me is this: Can CP go before Victoria as head of a dynasty, just because he is male? In still be accordance with the Swedish legislation? Wouldn't that be against the Swedish Constitution?
- In other words wouldn't that be gender discrimination?
In case the Bernadottes were commoners wouldn't Victoria have a very good case?
A lot of questions, I know, but I don't understand that one.
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  #328  
Old 06-02-2015, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Osipi View Post
Isn't there a difference between the royal family and the familial house? Wouldn't it be that Victoria will be the Queen of Sweden but it would depend too on what the familial rules of the House of Bernadotte are? If the family still goes by male primogeniture such as the peers of the UK do, its possible that CP would be head of household over his sister.

[...]
Most likely it will develop in the same way as in Spain: Don Luis Alfonso de Borbón y Martínez Bordiú is the most senior male of the royal dynasty of Borbón but his relative Don Felipe de Borbón y Grecia is the chef of the Royal House of Spain. He has two daughters with Ms Ortiz. When his daughters marry a non-Bourbon, the genealogical male line of the Bourbons will end to rule in Spain.

Prince Carl Philip and his male successors will the most senior male of the royal dynasty of Bernadotte, but his sister and hen ther daughter with Mr Westling will become the Chef of the Royal House of Sweden. When Estelle marries a non-Bernadotte, the genealogical male line of the Bernadottes will end to rule in Sweden.

In both cases the most senior male line descendant is not equal to the bearer of the Crown. In the Netherlands the House of Mecklenburg-Schwerin reigned between 1948 and 1980 (Queen Juliana), then the House of Lippe-Biesterfeld reigned between 1980 and 2013 (Queen Beatrix) and now the House of Amsberg reigns since 2013 (King Willem-Alexander). In all cases the name of the House was set into "Orange-Nassau", which was also more or less in line with the old Nassau rules: by lack of male descendants, the most senior female was deemed to be a male. Queen Wilhelmina, Queen Juliana and Queen Beatrix, all of them were the most senior as there were no brothers, all rights were transferred as if they were a male indeed.
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  #329  
Old 06-02-2015, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Muhler View Post

But what puzzles me is this: Can CP go before Victoria as head of a dynasty, just because he is male? In still be accordance with the Swedish legislation? Wouldn't that be against the Swedish Constitution?
- In other words wouldn't that be gender discrimination?
In case the Bernadottes were commoners wouldn't Victoria have a very good case?
A lot of questions, I know, but I don't understand that one.
My interpretation is that the law does not regulate who the head of the family (or the head of the dynasty) is, as that is a private matter and not a public one. The Act of Succession only specifies who will become the next monarch (and, simultaneously, under the Instrument of Government, the next Head of State ) when the throne is vacant. Currently, that person is Victoria.

Under agnatic succession, there was no conflict since the most senior living agnate in the dynasty was always also the king. Under male-preference primogeniture, a female dynast could succeed (if she didn't have any other living brothers like Princess Elizabeth of York or Princess Victoria of Kent), but, under the old (pre-20th century) conventions, the ruling dynasty would change once the reigning queen was deceased. Absolute (i.e gender-neutral) primogeniture has raised new issues, which IMHO are better solved by following e.g. the Belgian model where, instead of having a royal dynasty named after a specific family, the royal house is referred to simply as "House of Belgium".
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  #330  
Old 06-02-2015, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
My interpretation is that the law does not regulate who the head of the family (or the head of the dynasty) is, as that is a private matter and not a public one. The Act of Succession only specifies who will become the next monarch (and, simultaneously, under the Instrument of Government, the next Head of State ) when the throne is vacant. Currently, that person is Victoria.

Under agnatic succession, there was no conflict since the most senior living agnate in the dynasty was always also the king. Under male-preference primogeniture, a female dynast could succeed (if she didn't have any other lliving brothers like Princess Elizabeth of York or Princess Victoria of Kent), but, under the old (pre-20th century) conventions, the dynasty would become extinct once the reigning queen was deceased. Absolute (i.e gender-neutral) primogeniture has raised new issues, which IMHO are better solved by following e.g. the Belgian model where, instead of having a royal dynasty named after a specific family, the royal house is referred to simply as "House of Belgium".
I see. Thanks.

I must confess that my knowledge of how things work within the SRF is too limited for me to argue further against you.
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  #331  
Old 06-02-2015, 04:19 PM
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Pre-Wedding Information for Carl Philip and Sofia

The Swedish Royal family is not a noble family (like the Bernadotte of Wisborg family) as Sweden doesn't recognise nobility anymore.

They belong to the swedish constitution and they must follow it wich means that they are not allowed to have a different order of precedence in the family than the official one in to the order of succession.

Will Carl Philip be given any priviligies upon the Death of the King that would normally have gone to the monarch ? I don't know.

It was known 3 years ago that the King has (supported by Carl Philip) decided that the gallilera inheritance that would have gone to Carl Philip will go to Victoria instead.

He will definitely as the only Prince by blood of the swedish royal family inerhit Stenhammar Castle from The King according to the will of it's former owner. I belive Stenhammar is the only palace that the King actually owns and does not belong to the state of Sweden.

And he has already inherited Villa Solbacken from Prince Bertil.
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  #332  
Old 06-02-2015, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
The Swedish Royal family is not a noble family (like the Bernadotte of Wisborg family) as Sweden doesn't recognise nobility anymore.

They belong to the swedish constitution and they must follow it wich means that they are not allowed to have a different order of precedence in the family than the official one in to the order of succession.

Will Carl Philip be given any priviligies upon the Death of the King that would normally have gone to the monarch ? I don't know.

It was known 3 years ago that the King has supported by Carl Philip decided that the gallilera inheritance that would have gone to Carl Philip will go to Victoria instead.

He will definitely as the only Prince by blood of the swedish royal family inerhit Stenhammar Castle from The King according to the will of it's former owner. I belive Stenhammar is the only palace that the King actually owns and does not belong to the state of Sweden.

And he has already inherited Villa Solbacken from Prince Bertil.
You say Sweden does not recognize nobility but in official outings the State of Sweden uses titles,.They state: Hertig d'Otrante, not Mr d'Otrante. They say Friherre Staël von Holstein, they say Greve De Geer af Leufsta, nor Mr Staël or Mr De Geer... This means that the State has recognition of these titles, or not?
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  #333  
Old 06-02-2015, 05:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post

He will definitely as the only Prince by blood of the swedish royal family inerhit Stenhammar Castle from The King according to the will of it's former owner. I belive Stenhammar is the only palace that the King actually owns and does not belong to the state of Sweden.
Isn't the Solliden Palace also privately owned by the King ? I don't know who will inherit it.
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  #334  
Old 06-02-2015, 05:32 PM
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Pre-Wedding Information for Carl Philip and Sofia

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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
You say Sweden does not recognize nobility but in official outings the State of Sweden uses titles,.They state: Hertig d'Otrante, not Mr d'Otrante. They say Friherre Staël von Holstein, they say Greve De Geer af Leufsta, nor Mr Staël or Mr De Geer... This means that the State has recognition of these titles, or not?

The swedish constitution does not recognise nobility anymore but we have not banned the use of noble titles for people from noble families.

That means that for example members of family Lewenhaupt or family Oxenstierna of Korsholm and Vasa can still call themselves Count/Countess and members of family De La Gardie or family Silfverschiöld can still call themselves Baron/Baroness even though the title does not have any juridical function anymore.
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  #335  
Old 06-02-2015, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
The swedish constitution does not recognise nobility anymore but we have not banned the use of noble titles for people from noble families.

That means that for example members of family Lewenhaupt can still call themselves Count/Countess and members of family Silfverschiöld can still call themselves Baron/Baroness even though the title does not have any juridical function anymore.

I have a question: if someone who is not a member of the Lewenhaupt family calls himself Count Lewenhaupt, can the Lewenhaupts sue him ?
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  #336  
Old 06-02-2015, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
I have a question: if someone who is not a member of the Lewenhaupt family calls himself Count Lewenhaupt, can the Lewenhaupts sue him ?

Technically yes as many surnames of noble ancestry is still protected by the law of names despite the nobility itself being abolished. It's quite confusing.

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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Isn't the Solliden Palace also privately owned by the King ? I don't know who will inherit it.

You are correct. The King inherited it aged 4 from his great grandfather Gustaf V who inherited it from his wife Queen Victoria.

Don't know how they will do with it after the King is gone. As the Crown Princess family has builded a large house on the estate i can imagine that they will do something like Lennart Bernadotte did with Mainau and set up a foundation that will run the estate and being chaired by Victoria, Carl-Philip and Madeleine.

As we are off topic but discusses an important thing maybe the moderators can move this discussion to a fitting thread ?
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  #337  
Old 06-02-2015, 06:14 PM
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The King of Sweden can not create new nobility but of course Carl Philip has two titles: Prince of Sweden and Duke of Värmland. Technically, as son of the King and bearer of two titles, in my eyes is no creation of nobility needed.

In Denmark the title Count (Countess) de Monpezat was added to the princely titles. In the Netherlands the offspring of the younger sons of Queen Beatrix are Counts (Countesses) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. In the Danish and the Dutch case it was not so much an "elevation into the nobility" (as the persons were already belonging to royalty) but more an "incorporation" of a branch of the royal family into the nobility, with a noble title. When this is also possible in Sweden, then technically King Carl XVI Gustaf has not created a new noble - after all his son is royal - he only "added" him to the Swedish Nobility, so to say. Is that possible?
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  #338  
Old 06-02-2015, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
The King of Sweden can not create new nobility but of course Carl Philip has two titles: Prince of Sweden and Duke of Värmland. Technically, as son of the King and bearer of two titles, in my eyes is no creation of nobility needed.

In Denmark the title Count (Countess) de Monpezat was added to the princely titles. In the Netherlands the offspring of the younger sons of Queen Beatrix are Counts (Countesses) van Oranje-Nassau van Amsberg. In the Danish and the Dutch case it was not so much an "elevation into the nobility" (as the persons were already belonging to royalty) but more an "incorporation" of a branch of the royal family into the nobility, with a noble title. When this is also possible in Sweden, then technically King Carl XVI Gustaf has not created a new noble - after all his son is royal - he only "added" him to the Swedish Nobility, so to say. Is that possible?

I don't think so. The Swedish nobility is not under the jurisdiction of the king and nowadays Riddarhuset is completely separate from the state. Also the Bernadottes isn't by definition a noble family and the title of duke should not be seen as a noble but a honorary royal title.


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  #339  
Old 06-02-2015, 06:48 PM
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and the title of duke should not be seen as a noble but a honorary royal title.


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Correct. It's an all honorary title bestowed by the King with no noble connection at all. That's why Daniel got the title of Duke of Västergötland and why Sofia will be made Duchess of Värmland.

Had it been noble titles Daniel and Sofia could not have got those titles. Then they would likely have been created Prince Daniel Mr Bernadotte-Westling and Princess Sofia Mrs Bernadotte.
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  #340  
Old 06-03-2015, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
He will definitely as the only Prince by blood of the swedish royal family inerhit Stenhammar Castle from The King according to the will of it's former owner. I belive Stenhammar is the only palace that the King actually owns and does not belong to the state of Sweden.
The king doesn't own the Stenhammar Castle.
Stenhammar Castle is owned by the State and the king leases it. A R von Kraemer wrote in his will that the estate should be leased only to a Swedish prince of the royal family, who has possible succession to the throne. So after the king Carl Philip will lease the estate from the State.
Historia — Stenhammars Godsförvaltning
Translation

The king owns the Solliden Palace. And Victoria and Daniel built there an own house to Solliden with their own money. Maybe that tells us something.
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