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  #81  
Old 09-05-2017, 05:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Madame Verseau View Post
I think with so many successors to the Silver Throne the Riksdag will take matters into its own hands about who gets HRH and who gets appanage for tax and other financial considerations. As of now there are seven members of the king's immediate family that do not have a chance to ascend to the throne unless there is a horrible tragedy. I can see the Riskdag saying no appanage for the Prince Family and the Princess Family with exception that Carl Philip will receive money from the government when he would have to act as regent during Estelle's minority. The law was drastically changed in 1979 to take the heir apparent title away from CP.
It would be easier if the Riksdag would allow the monarch to give noble Titles to the people in line of succession/Royal House like it is the case in Denmark.
As for the Apanage as i understand Carl Philip and Madeleine now only get money from the Apanage when the perfiorm duties on behalf of the King/Royal House.
I also doubt it will be made sure that the children of Carl Phioklip and Madeleine will have to earn the own Money and get a Job.
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  #82  
Old 09-05-2017, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Skippy View Post
In name maybe, but by blood Oscar carries on the Westling line. Simply because his father is one.
Carl Philip and now Alexander and Gabriel are the only ones able to carry the bloodline back to the start of the House of Bernadotte.
That's as simple as it is, just look at the family tree.
I don't think I understand this. If it's blood that's important, then the child has 50/50 from the mother and father. The "blood line" would then be equally valid no matter if it's the father or mothers last name on the paper.
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  #83  
Old 09-05-2017, 06:32 AM
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I don't think I understand this. If it's blood that's important, then the child has 50/50 from the mother and father. The "blood line" would then be equally valid no matter if it's the father or mothers last name on the paper.
It derives from the (old-fashioned) patrilineal line. Females can't carry on, for their offspring will be added to their husband's family.

That's why I say that Carl Philip, Alexander and now Gabriel are the sole ones continuing the Bernadotte bloodline.
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  #84  
Old 09-05-2017, 06:35 AM
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A rather archaic concept that does not take into account the law. With your reasoning the houses of Habsburg, Romanov, Orange-Nassau, Nassau-Weilburg etc. do not exist.
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  #85  
Old 09-05-2017, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post


A rather archaic concept that does not take into account the law. With your reasoning the houses of Habsburg, Romanov, Orange-Nassau, Nassau-Weilburg etc. do not exist.
True, this post from The Scandinavian Royals Message Board mentions the same:

By Robert Warholm:
"I agree. That would have made it possible to keep the throne for the Bernadotte dynasty. Yes, I know that people change their names so they can pretend to be Bernadottes, but genealogically, that is not correct. The House of Romanov, the House of Habsburg and The House of Nassau are extinct. The Prince of Wales is really not a Windsor. The senior Windsor when the current Queen is gone will be the Duke of Gloucester. Crown Princess Victoria will be the last Bernadotte on the Swedish throne, but the dynasty will live on through Prince Carl Philip and his sons.

That being said, I think that CP Victoria will made a better Monarchy than Prince Carl Philip would."

I share this opinion, as much disagreement as possible it may provide.
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  #86  
Old 09-05-2017, 11:25 AM
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That may be the opinion of the poster, but it is based on a fantasy and not on reality. There is no legal basis for his claim. With such an opinion one ignores that our societies are ruled by the law and not on -what is now an outdated- concept of 'genealogy'. If we would deny law all together, there would not be a house of Bernadotte as the Baden family would be the genealogical heirs of the house of Wasa.

Likewise, if we deny the law, there would be no house of Orange -or Amsberg if you want- in the Netherlands but our ruler would be King Felipe VI and there would be no house of Windsor but the Duke of Bavaria would be ruling over England and Scotland.

It may be nice to daydream about such matters and it may be an interesting work-out in royal genealogy, but it has nothing to do with the reality in which we live. And that reality is that the main branch of the house of Bernadotte will continue through the crown princess and her offspring.
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  #87  
Old 09-05-2017, 02:30 PM
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Crown Princess Victoria is a Bernadotte not a Sommerlath
in the same logic Princess Estelle & Prince Oscar are Westling not Bernadotte
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  #88  
Old 09-05-2017, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Fijiro View Post
Crown Princess Victoria is a Bernadotte not a Sommerlath
in the same logic Princess Estelle & Prince Oscar are Westling not Bernadotte
You have the right to that opinion. I would say that most swedes sees the thing quite differently. Victoria is as much a Sommerlath as she is a Bernadotte, and Estelle/Oscar are just as much Bernadotte as they are Westling.

It really doesn't matter who's last name you have - you are still equal parts from your father and mother. That is reflected in the name laws here in Sweden. Whey you get married, there are several options. Both can keep their last names. Both can have hers or his name. Or you can chose a new last name (within some boundaries). The question of last name isn't a big thing here.
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  #89  
Old 09-05-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
That may be the opinion of the poster, but it is based on a fantasy and not on reality. There is no legal basis for his claim. With such an opinion one ignores that our societies are ruled by the law and not on -what is now an outdated- concept of 'genealogy'. If we would deny law all together, there would not be a house of Bernadotte as the Baden family would be the genealogical heirs of the house of Wasa.

Likewise, if we deny the law, there would be no house of Orange -or Amsberg if you want- in the Netherlands but our ruler would be King Felipe VI and there would be no house of Windsor but the Duke of Bavaria would be ruling over England and Scotland.

It may be nice to daydream about such matters and it may be an interesting work-out in royal genealogy, but it has nothing to do with the reality in which we live. And that reality is that the main branch of the house of Bernadotte will continue through the crown princess and her offspring.
Well, actually after the death of Queen Carola of Saxony in 1907 and then the death of her cousin's son Grand Duke Friedrich II of Baden in 1928 the main line of inheritance from the House of Holstein-Gottorp went to his sister Victoria, by then Queen of Sweden, uniting the two royal lines.
Added to that the family's claim to the throne was quite distant at the time Adolf Fredrik of Holstein-Gottorp was elected Crown prince going back to the early 1600s. The closest heir to the House of Pfalz-Zweibrucken and through them the House of Vasa was the grandson of Karl XI, Duke Peter of Holstein-Gottorp (another branch than Adolf Fredrik). Although favoured by both his great-grandmother Queen Dowager Hedvig Eleonora and his uncle King Karl XII Peter was sidelined by his aunt Ulrika Eleonora and never reached the throne though his son Paul ended up in Russia instead where he, when becoming emperor, founded the House of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov. By a few twists of fate we have a Bernadotte on the Swedish throne and the main heir to King Gustav I Vasa among the Ilyinskys in Florida.
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  #90  
Old 09-05-2017, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
You have the right to that opinion. I would say that most swedes sees the thing quite differently. Victoria is as much a Sommerlath as she is a Bernadotte, and Estelle/Oscar are just as much Bernadotte as they are Westling.

It really doesn't matter who's last name you have - you are still equal parts from your father and mother. That is reflected in the name laws here in Sweden. Whey you get married, there are several options. Both can keep their last names. Both can have hers or his name. Or you can chose a new last name (within some boundaries). The question of last name isn't a big thing here.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in some countries such as Belgium, children can now legally take their father's family name, or their mother's, or both (the latter in any order they choose, i.e the maternal family name followed by the paternal one, or vice-versa). So basically, the patrilineal rule as the standard for family naming conventions no longer applies. I don't know how the law in Sweden works, but, in any case, Daniel changed his last name to Bernadotte and, even under the patrilineal rule, his children are legally Bernadottes rather than Westlings.

Personally, I understand that traditionalists might be against those kinds of "tricks", but, if they feel so strongly about keeping the throne within the same family (as defined in a strictly patrilineal sense), then they should accordingly support male-preference primogeniture, or even agnatic primogeniture., as it used to be the case in the past. One can't really have equal primogeniture and expect at the same time that the succession will be always confined to the same patrilineal dynasty.
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  #91  
Old 09-05-2017, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by JR76 View Post
Well, actually after the death of Queen Carola of Saxony in 1907 and then the death of her cousin's son Grand Duke Friedrich II of Baden in 1928 the main line of inheritance from the House of Holstein-Gottorp went to his sister Victoria, by then Queen of Sweden, uniting the two royal lines.
Added to that the family's claim to the throne was quite distant at the time Adolf Fredrik of Holstein-Gottorp was elected Crown prince going back to the early 1600s. The closest heir to the House of Pfalz-Zweibrucken and through them the House of Vasa was the grandson of Karl XI, Duke Peter of Holstein-Gottorp (another branch than Adolf Fredrik). Although favoured by both his great-grandmother Queen Dowager Hedvig Eleonora and his uncle King Karl XII Peter was sidelined by his aunt Ulrika Eleonora and never reached the throne though his son Paul ended up in Russia instead where he, when becoming emperor, founded the House of Holstein-Gottorp-Romanov. By a few twists of fate we have a Bernadotte on the Swedish throne and the main heir to King Gustav I Vasa among the Ilyinskys in Florida.
Thank you for the correction, JR76. And for the informative post. I was reasoning through an male-preference line from the descendants of the last Vasa king through GDss Sophia of Baden, nee Vasa (or HG). I forgot all about the Russian 'branch' of the house of Holstein-Gottrop so I stand corrected.
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  #92  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:06 PM
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Whatever the surname, Carl Philip is the direct male agnate of a line of male descendants, from father to son, from the first King of the Bernadotte dynasty. His sons continue the direct male agnatic royal lineage.

On his part, Daniel Westling is a male agnate, a descendant from father to son, of generations of Westlings. Suddenly this Westling procreates "Bernadottes" and that is a pure masquerade of the simple fact that Estelle Westling is the future head of state of Sweden, taken for granted that the monarchy survives.

The same counts for Albert and Jacques de Polignac, direct male agnatic descendants of the Maison de Chalencon de Polignac but the same masquerade as in Sweden was applied: Albert's grandfather Pierre de Polignac assumed the surname Grimaldi when he married Charlotte Grimaldi (who herself was a masquerade as well as all her princely descendants in male agnatic line were from the Maison de Goyon de Matignon and not Grimaldi at all). "800 years House of Grimaldi", pfff spare me the laughter...

Estelle Westling
Christian de Laborde de Monpezat
Catharina-Amalia von Amsberg
Charles von Glücksborg
Guillaume de Bourbon de Parme
Elisabeth von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha
Jacques de Polignac

These would have been the surnames had normal paternal agnatic rule applied. When Daniel Westling was acceptable for the Crown Princess, for the King and for the Government, then I fail to see why his surname was not acceptable.

The double standards would apply again when Estelle marries: her offspring will be "Bernadottes" too thanks to another name change but those of her brother do not need a name change, after all their father is already a "Bernadotte", isn't it? The whole vaudeville is furtherer obscuring the one and only real dynastic procreation of the real Bernadottes, the lineage of Carl Philip.

It was more chique and more transparent if the children of Victoria were Westling-Bernadotte, and the children of Madeleine O'Neill-Bernadotte. Their fathers are now completely whitewashed in their very own offspring, which on itself has the hidden message: your name is too pauvre, let us name them Bernadotte.
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  #93  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
Whatever the surname, Carl Philip is the direct male agnate of a line of male descendants, from father to son, from the first King of the Bernadotte dynasty. His sons continue the direct male agnatic royal lineage.

On his part, Daniel Westling is a male agnate, a descendant from father to son, of generations of Westlings. Suddenly this Westling procreates "Bernadottes" and that is a pure masquerade of the simple fact that Estelle Westling is the future head of state of Sweden, taken for granted that the monarchy survives.

The same counts for Albert and Jacques de Polignac, direct male agnatic descendants of the Maison de Chalencon de Polignac but the same masquerade as in Sweden was applied: his grandfather Pierre de Polignac assumed the surname Grimaldi when he married Charlotte Grimaldi (who herself was a masquerade as well as all her princely descendants in male agnatic line were from the Maison de Goyon de Matignon and not Grimaldi at all). "800 years House of Grimaldi", pfff spare me the laughter...

Estelle Westling
Christian de Laborde de Monpezat
Catharina-Amalia von Amsberg
Charles von Glücksborg
Guillaume de Bourbon de Parme
Elisabeth von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha
Jacques de Polignac

These would have been the surnames had normal paternal agnatic rule applied
Well, none of those names are legally used by the above-listed individuals, so the point is rather moot, isn't it ? For example, Prince Philip himself had already taken his mother's family name (Mountbatten) rather than Glücksburg (which BTW he never used either as a member of the Greek royal family). So, even if Philip insisted in passing his family name to his descendants, they wouldn't be called "Glücksburg"

In the past, the most common compromise was actually to have a compound name such as Habsburg-Lothringen , Braganza-Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, or Mountbatten-Windsor, which I believe is the most sensible thing to do .
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  #94  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Mbruno View Post
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but in some countries such as Belgium, children can now legally take their father's family name, or their mother's, or both (the latter in any order they choose, i.e the maternal family name followed by the paternal one, or vice-versa). So basically, the patrilineal rule as the standard for family naming conventions no longer applies. I don't know how the law in Sweden works, but, in any case, Daniel changed his last name to Bernadotte and, even under the patrilineal rule, his children are legally Bernadottes rather than Westlings.

Personally, I understand that traditionalists might be against those kinds of "tricks", but, if they feel so strongly about keeping the throne within the same family (as defined in a strictly patrilineal sense), then they should accordingly support male-preference primogeniture, or even agnatic primogeniture., as it used to be the case in the past. One can't really have equal primogeniture and expect at the same time that the succession will be always confined to the same patrilineal dynasty.
Regarding kids: The parents are free to chose what last name the child will have, if they have different last names. If none is officially chosen, the child is given the same name as the mother in official records. But almost all parents with last name make that choice when they report the official names of the child.

I do understand that this may sound strange to people who live in countries with different habits. And it wasn't always like this here. The law changed in 1982, and was adjusted just two months ago (even more liberal when it comes to what new names you can chose, and things like that). I can honestly say that most people here don't care about patriarchal blood lines and stuff like that.
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  #95  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Marengo View Post
Thank you for the correction, JR76. And for the informative post. I was reasoning through an male-preference line from the descendants of the last Vasa king through GDss Sophia of Baden, nee Vasa (or HG). I forgot all about the Russian 'branch' of the house of Holstein-Gottrop so I stand corrected.
It wasnt meant as a correction of your post but more as a commentary. I find the whole Holstein-Gottorp business quite amusing and one of those big "what ifs" of history. Without Paul no Catherine and without her who knows in what direction Russia and Europe wouldve developed.
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  #96  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:37 PM
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I see that from a traditional genealogical perspective, Prince Carl Philip is the real heir to the dynasty. But I think that most Swedes don't see it that way. The old ways don't matter anymore. The Line and the House of Bernadotte will follow the Heir to the throne, the Crown Prince(ss). Only in case if this position would be dormant, a new House, with a new name would apply.

And when we get into details, it is not a question of surname. Only members of the Royal Family since 2010, has a surname (e.g. Bernadotte, or something like that). The members before that don't have a surname, but is only members of the House of Bernadotte.

As someone pointed out previously in the thread, are spouses in Sweden allowed to take his or her surname. So, I don't think that Daniel Westling's surname wasn't good enough, but more likely that Crown Princess Victoria is the legal heir to the House of Bernadotte, no matter what tradition says.
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  #97  
Old 09-05-2017, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by xenobia View Post
Regarding kids: The parents are free to chose what last name the child will have, if they have different last names. If none is officially chosen, the child is given the same name as the mother in official records. But almost all parents with last name make that choice when they report the official names of the child.

I do understand that this may sound strange to people who live in countries with different habits. And it wasn't always like this here. The law changed in 1982, and was adjusted just two months ago (even more liberal when it comes to what new names you can chose, and things like that). I can honestly say that most people here don't care about patriarchal blood lines and stuff like that.
I totally agree. That is a non-issue here. It would just have been weird if Crown Princess Victoria would have taken the surname Westling. Not sure that would have been appreciated by everyone.
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  #98  
Old 09-05-2017, 05:08 PM
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So why not a hyphenated surname? Many women do this...it honors both names.


LaRae
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  #99  
Old 09-05-2017, 06:32 PM
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When the reign goes through a queen regnant, the reigning house’s name changes when her descendants succeed her. That’s why in the UK, for example, we had Tudor, Stuart, Hanover, Saxe-Coburg & Gotha.Queen Victoria UK was Hanover, but her son King Edward VII UK was House of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha (aka Windsor).

When Parliaments approved the change to allow for females to ascent the throne,
they should also accept that the ruling house name will change with her descendants, otherwise it “forces” the man marrying the regnant queen or future regnant queen to change his name and/or his off-springs cannot bear his name.

There is still no equality whichever way you look at it – why is Daniel not a Crown Prince, like Mary of Denmark is a Crown Princess.

I hope that when Queen Estelle ascends the thrown, she will go in as a house of Westling.
I also hope that Charles will change to house of Mountbatten.

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  #100  
Old 09-05-2017, 08:20 PM
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When the reign goes through a queen regnant, the reigning house’s name changes when her descendants succeed her. That’s why in the UK, for example, we had Tudor, Stuart, Hanover, Saxe-Coburg & Gotha.Queen Victoria UK was Hanover, but her son King Edward VII UK was House of Saxe-Coburg & Gotha (aka Windsor).

When Parliaments approved the change to allow for females to ascent the throne,
they should also accept that the ruling house name will change with her descendants, otherwise it “forces” the man marrying the regnant queen or future regnant queen to change his name and/or his off-springs cannot bear his name.

There is still no equality whichever way you look at it – why is Daniel not a Crown Prince, like Mary of Denmark is a Crown Princess.

I hope that when Queen Estelle ascends the thrown, she will go in as a house of Westling.
I also hope that Charles will change to house of Mountbatten.
I'm 99.9℅ sure that the Swedish Parliament have more pressing issues to keep them occupied than if Estelle is a Wrestling or a Bernadotte.
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