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  #61  
Old 11-19-2021, 09:20 AM
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It is true that the Heirs already receive Sweden's highest Order (Kungliga Serafimerorden) but there is still a difference:

Sovereigns usually have the Serafimerorden with collar: picture.

Heirs usually have the Serafimerorden without collar: picture.

So Don Felipe de Borbón will receive the collar belonging said Order he already wears.




----



Then about the discrimination of Prince Daniel by King Felipe, not awarding him the Orden Isabel la Católica.

I found out that Prince Consorts not always have the Seraphim, see Prince Claus: picture but another Prince Consort did receive the Seraphim: picture.

So the Swedes themselves are not consistent in policy towards Consorts, so to see.
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  #62  
Old 11-19-2021, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duc_et_Pair View Post
It is true that the Heirs already receive Sweden's highest Order (Kungliga Serafimerorden) but there is still a difference:

Sovereigns usually have the Serafimerorden with collar: picture.

Heirs usually have the Serafimerorden without collar: picture.

So Don Felipe de Borbón will receive the collar belonging said Order he already wears.



Yes, that is correct and, I suspect, a recent innovation that in practice has created two de facto grades for the Order of the Seraphim: Knight with Collar and Knight.

Originally, and the Swedish experts here can either confirm or deny it, I believe all Knights of the Seraphim were supposed to receive the collar, as the Knights of the Garter, the Knights of the Thistle, or the Knights of the Golden Fleece.

Maybe the change began when women were admitted as "Members" (term used for ladies and clergymen, instead of "Knight"). Queen Beatrix, however, and other female Heads of State now have the Collar too, but female members of the Royal Family like Queen Silvia do not. Prince Carl Philip has the Collar, which he wore at Victoria's wedding, but does Victoria herself have it? Her coat of arms shows the collar, but heraldic representations are not always reliable.
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  #63  
Old 11-19-2021, 11:53 AM
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The Order of the Seraphim
The collar can be awarded to Knights (and Members) of the Order of the Seraphim as a special honor and is not automatically included in the grant. It can, for example, be awarded to a head of state during a second state visit, if the head of state has already received the Order of Seraphim.
Serafimerorden - Sveriges Kungahus

In english version
The Collar of the Order is only bestowed as a mark of special distinction.
The Order of the Seraphim - Sveriges Kungahus

Tarja Halonen, the President of Finland, at a state visit to Sweden in 2000
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At a visit in 2009
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  #64  
Old 11-19-2021, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by lula View Post
Regarding Daniel's order, you are focusing this decision on the Spanish, when both countries have agreed on the exchange. In the case of countries that give several decorations and not the same to the whole family, Victoria and Daniel do not receive the same decoration, and Daniel receives the same as his brother-in-law. So it seems that this is a common pattern in Sweden.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ily_by_country
I don't think there was any suggestion of disagreements or a lack of consultations, but only by focusing on Spanish precedents can we determine whether the pattern is "Swedish" or "Spanish".

It would not be surprising if, as you suggest, the King of Sweden directed the King of Spain to accord the crown princess's consort a lower-ranked order. As discussed in the below thread, King Carl XVI Gustaf accords the crown princess's consort a lower rank than the crown princess's younger siblings at the Swedish court (which is not the practice for other European consorts, male or female).

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2437248
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  #65  
Old 11-20-2021, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatiana Maria View Post
I don't think there was any suggestion of disagreements or a lack of consultations, but only by focusing on Spanish precedents can we determine whether the pattern is "Swedish" or "Spanish".

It would not be surprising if, as you suggest, the King of Sweden directed the King of Spain to accord the crown princess's consort a lower-ranked order. As discussed in the below thread, King Carl XVI Gustaf accords the crown princess's consort a lower rank than the crown princess's younger siblings at the Swedish court (which is not the practice for other European consorts, male or female).

https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2437248

Princess Maxima for example, as the consort of the Prince of Orange, was not treated equally as her husband by King Carl Gustaf: she got the Grand Cross of the Order of the Polar Star while Willem-Alexander received the Order of the Seraphim (without collar) and Queen Beatrix obviously got the Order of the Seraphim with collar. But Maxima got the same order and the same grade within that order as Princess Margriet and Pieter van Vollenhoven (also Commanders Grand Cross of the Order of the Polar Star).

Because King Felipe has more orders to bestow than King Carl Gustaf, he can stratify further the awards. Looking at the Spanish orders bestowed on the Swedish royals, we have
  1. The King of Sweden: the Grand Cross with Collar of the Order of Charles III ( the highest civil order decoration in Spain) and, later, the Order of the Golden Fleece (mirroring Queen Elizabeth's policy in the UK of awarding the Order of the Garter to European monarchs after first awarding them the Royal Victorian Chain for example).
  2. The Queen consort: the Grand Cross (without collar) of the Order of Charles III (highest award now available to the consort of a King).
  3. The Crown Princess: the Grand Cross (without collar) of the Order of Isabella the Catholic (highest award normally bestowed on a Crown Prince , as the collar is awarded only to Heads of State, e.g. presidents of republics like Sergio Mattarella in the recent Italian state visit).
  4. The consort of the Crown Princess, the King's younger son and the King's younger son's spouse: the Grand Cross of the Order of Civil Merit (they are being treated as being of the same rank, and lower than the former, as King Carl Gustaf treated Princess Maxima, Princess Margriet and Peter van Vollenhoven).

Looking at it this way, it seems pretty reasonable to me. A possible alternative would have been to raise Victoria as CP to the same rank as he Queen consort (i.e. Grand Cross without collar of the Order of Charles III), as it was done in the case of the Prince of Wales or CP Haakon, which would leave room for Daniel to receive a higher order. But, even in that scenario, which has not been the recent Spanish practice, Daniel would still have gotten a lower award than his wife, just as Mette-Marit for example received the Grand Cross of Isabella the Catholic (lower, therefore, than Haakon's decoration and, most importantly, the same award as Princess Astrid's).

On the issue of precedence, again the Duke of Edinburgh held the highest position in the male order of precedence (below his wife only) when Elizabeth II became queen, but I am not sure if that was true when King George VI was still alive. Did the Duke of Edinburgh, as Princess Elizabeth's husband, outrank for example the Duke of Gloucester (the King's brother) when not accompanied by his wife?
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  #66  
Old 11-21-2021, 06:25 AM
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Official program of the visit:

23/11/2021
Quote:
At noon, the Kings who will travel accompanied by the Minister of Foreign Affairs, European Union and Cooperation, José Manuel Albares, will be dismissed from the State Pavilion of the Adolfo Suárez Madrid Barajas Airport.

In the afternoon, Don Felipe and Doña Letizia will receive the Spanish community residing in Sweden at the Spanish Embassy in Stockholm.
24/11/2021
Quote:
The following day, the official welcome ceremony will take place at the Royal Palace in Stockholm. In the afternoon, the Kings will go to the Nobel Museum where they will tour the exhibition “Synopsis. Art and science of Spain. From Ramón y Cajal to our days ”, an exhibition to disseminate the work of Spanish scientists that takes as its starting point the drawings of neurons by Nobel Prize winner Ramón y Cajal.

Later, Don Felipe will visit the Swedish Parliament where he will meet with his president and Doña Letizia, accompanied by the Queen of Sweden, the Karolinska University Hospital.

In the middle of the afternoon, his Majesty the King will hold a meeting with the Prime Minister of Sweden. Late in the day, the Kings of Sweden will host a dinner in honor of Their Majesties the Kings.
25/11/2021
Quote:
The day of Thursday, 25 will begin with a meeting of Don Felipe with businessmen and the inauguration of a Business Seminar. At mid-morning, the King accompanied by the King of Sweden will visit the Royal Institute of Technology KTH, with content oriented towards sustainable, intelligent and safe mobility of people and goods in a post-pandemic scenario.

For her part, Doña Letizia will visit the Bernadotte Library in Stockholm's Royal Palace, where the promotion of Spanish and Swedish languages will take place, with the collaboration of the Cervantes Institute and the Swedish Institute.

At noon, the Kings will attend the lunch offered by the president of the Citizen Council and the mayor of Stockholm in her honor. Next, Don Felipe will visit the Royal Swedish Academy of Engineering Sciences.

A reception hosted by Their Majesties the Kings in honor of Their Majesties the Kings of Sweden will bring the state visit to an end.
Source: casareal.es

Where will King Felipe VI and Queen Letizia be staying during the state visit?
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  #67  
Old 11-21-2021, 06:59 AM
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The Spanish embassy in Sweden is located at Byströms Villa. This villa was a royal residence, Prince Carl and Princess Ingeborg (and their daughters Martha, future princess of Norway, and Astrid, future queen of Belgium) lived in this house which was later bought by King Alfonso XIII. So it is an embassy with royal history.

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystr%C3%B6ms_villa
https://svenskamagasinet.nu/artikel/...ens-sedan-1928
https://friendlysocietyblog.wordpres...rens-residens/
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  #68  
Old 11-21-2021, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
Where will King Felipe VI and Queen Letizia be staying during the state visit?

Probably in the State Guest Appartements at the Royal Palace of Stockholm
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  #69  
Old 11-21-2021, 07:57 AM
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Is the Order of Charles III (jellow) higher as the Order of Isabella la Catolica (light blue)?
The President of Italy and his Daughter received the Yellow one and Carla Sarkozy the pale blue Sash. It is confused to me !
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  #70  
Old 11-21-2021, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Is the Order of Charles III (jellow) higher as the Order of Isabella la Catolica (light blue)?
The President of Italy and his Daughter received the Yellow one and Carla Sarkozy the pale blue Sash. It is confused to me !
It is the other way round: Carlos III is light blue and Isabel is yellow.
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  #71  
Old 11-21-2021, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Is the Order of Charles III (jellow) higher as the Order of Isabella la Catolica (light blue)?
The President of Italy and his Daughter received the Yellow one and Carla Sarkozy the pale blue Sash. It is confused to me !



Yes the order of Carlos III. is hogher then Isabel the catholic. But you have mixed the colours as Caros III. is blue/white and Isabel is yellow/white.
Interesting that Carla Brunio got the order of CArlos III. Was that always the case during Kung Carlos reign or was thatn an exception?. Because i think at recent State Visits from republic the wives of presidents usually got Isabel the catholic.
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  #72  
Old 11-21-2021, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
Probably in the State Guest Appartements at the Royal Palace of Stockholm
That is a fair guess, but we don't know really. Since the restauration of the west facade towards the Outer Courtyard, where the State Guest Apartments are located, we haven't seen any pictures from the Apartments.

Usually during an incoming state visit in Sweden, the group picture is taken in the Melager Salon in the State Guest Apartments. The last picture taken there was at the Canadian state visit in February 2017. For the next incoming state visit in January 2018 from Iceland, and since then, the group pictures have been taken in the Pillar Hall at the Bernadotte Apartments.

The reason for this change is unknown, at least to my knowledge. But I guess that it depends on the restauration of the facade just outside the windows of the Apartment. The restauration of the west facade have been done in two parts, starting in 2017, and the parts outside the State Guest Apartments started in 2018. The work was completed this week, making the entire facade and Outer Courtyard completed.

For that reason I don't think that any guests have stayed there since the Presidential Couple of Iceland, which necessarily didn't stayed there either. Where the incoming guests have stayed in this period is unclear, maybe in another Apartment at the Royal Palace, at Drottningholm Palace, Grand Hotel or their Embassy/residence?

That said, we have to wait and see where the King and Queen of Spain stay during the visit to Stockholm, as the work now is completed.

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  #73  
Old 11-21-2021, 09:12 AM
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Thanks Stefan.
Some Guests are wearing the Collar with the Sash , others only the Collar. What is the way to wear it.
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  #74  
Old 11-21-2021, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Thanks Stefan.
Some Guests are wearing the Collar with the Sash , others only the Collar. What is the way to wear it.
In my very humble opinion, the collar should not be worn with the sash of the same order. King Albert II always wore collars correctly, i.e. either the collar alone (with no sash), or with a sash of a different order.

Having said that, many dignitaries wear both the sash and the collar of the same order simultaneously nowadays, especially presidents of republics, like Signore Mattarella on his recent state visit to Spain (and literally all Latin American presidents I can recall during state visits to Spain). Even King Juan Carlos did it at Prince Felipe's wedding where he wore the sash of the collar of the Order of Charles III with the collar itself of the same order (plus the collar of the Golden Fleece). That was somewhat weird. Note that King Carl Gustaf wore the collars of the Seraphim and of the order of Vasa (I think?) at CP Victoria's wedding with no sash.

In the UK, where all orders of chivalry actually have a collar, the collar is, however, worn only on very special days. Queen Elizabeth II e.g. only wears the Garter collar on Garter Day, or for the state opening of Parliament.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maria-olivia View Post
Is the Order of Charles III (jellow) higher as the Order of Isabella la Catolica (light blue)?
The President of Italy and his Daughter received the Yellow one and Carla Sarkozy the pale blue Sash. It is confused to me !
It is indeed a little confusing. Normally, on a first state visit, the King of Spain awards the collar of the order of Isabella the Catholic (yellow sash) to presidents and the grand cross of the same order to first ladies. On a second state visit, they may be both upgraded to the order of Charles III (light blue sash). European monarchs and queens/princes consort, however, normally get the order of Charles III (respectively with and without collar) right on their first state visit; sometimes the same distinction is also accorded to some presidents like the French president for example (?). European monarchs subsequently normally receive the order of the Golden Fleece, but that honor is extended only to the king or reigning queen, not to consorts.

The current official order of precedence in Spain no longer accords precedence based on nobility and knighthood as in the UK (only the King and the Queen consort, the Prince or Princess of Asturias and his/her consort, and the Infantes or Infantas have official precedence), but the precedence of the orders is in practice implied by the seniority (year of order creation) and the conditions for award (e.g. how exclusive the order or a grade therein is). Based on those implicit criteria, the hierarchy for the orders that are relevant to the current discussion is (with year of creation under parenthesis):

1. Order of the Golden Fleece (1430)
2. Order of Charles III (1771)
3. Order of Isabella the Catholic (1815)
4. Order of Civil Merit (1926)
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  #75  
Old 11-21-2021, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Blog Real View Post
Where will King Felipe VI and Queen Letizia be staying during the state visit?
During the last state visits, the guests has been staying at either in a Suite at Grand Hotel, or at the residence of their Ambassador...

Don’t know if the Guest Apartments at the Royal Palace
is ready yet... It has to my knowledge not been used since 2017 due to ongoing restoration work
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  #76  
Old 11-21-2021, 12:01 PM
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Royal (and imperial japanese) state visits included a trip in the royal barge "Vasaorden" to the Stockholm town hall - I guess this this won´t be done this time?
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  #77  
Old 11-21-2021, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by wartenberg7 View Post
Royal (and imperial japanese) state visits included a trip in the royal barge "Vasaorden" to the Stockholm town hall - I guess this this won´t be done this time?
It hasn’t been done on any state visit since Emperor Akihito and Empress Michiko visited in 2000, so not likely.

The royal barge is used very rarely as it takes a lot restoration work and training of a large crew to get it ready. Last time was at Victoria and Daniel’s wedding 11 years ago.
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  #78  
Old 11-21-2021, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Hans-Rickard View Post
It hasn’t been done on any state visit since Emperor Akihito and Empress Michiko visited in 2000, so not likely.

The royal barge is used very rarely as it takes a lot restoration work and training of a crew to get it ready. Last time was at Victoria and Daniel’s wedding 11 years ago.
Yes, I couldn´t recall which was the last time, Japan or Belgium. It´s a pity really that these days everything seems to be considered too costly, too much of an effort...
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  #79  
Old 11-21-2021, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wartenberg7 View Post
Royal (and imperial japanese) state visits included a trip in the royal barge "Vasaorden" to the Stockholm town hall - I guess this this won´t be done this time?
The Royal Barge Vasaorden hasn't been used after Victoria and Daniel's wedding.
The Armed Forces announced in August that the Royal Barge Vasaorden is in for a thorough renovation
https://www.theroyalforums.com/forum...ml#post2421119
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  #80  
Old 11-21-2021, 12:34 PM
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Yes the order of Carlos III. is hogher then Isabel the catholic. But you have mixed the colours as Caros III. is blue/white and Isabel is yellow/white.
Interesting that Carla Brunio got the order of CArlos III. Was that always the case during Kung Carlos reign or was thatn an exception?. Because i think at recent State Visits from republic the wives of presidents usually got Isabel the catholic.
Sarkozy had already received the Grand Cross of Charles III as Minister of the Interior of France, so when he traveled to Spain as President he received the Collar of Charles III and his consort the Grand Cross. He also received the Golden Fleece, being one of the two foreign politicians to whom Juan Carlos awarded it.

He is an exceptional case. For many years the collaboration of France in the persecution of the ETA terrorists was little, and it changed with the arrival of Sarkozy to the Ministry of the Interior. Since then and during his different political mandates, collaboration with Spain against terrorism was very important, and for this he was exceptionally recognized.
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